Lm-1 Wide Band O2 sensor
06-17-2004, 02:39 AM
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Lm-1 Wide Band O2 sensor
I just ordered this on line from www.innovatemotorsports.com
I have an ARM1 already for picking up AF ratios but as i understand it, this LM-1 is WAY WAY more accurate and covers a broader spectrum of AF ratio(hence the wide band title i guess?) and is a must for any type of superchager and performance tuning
Can anyone who has one shed any tips on install, mounting..use etc etc.
Where is it installed if you have CATS. I know prior to the cats but that really doesnt leave many options...i guess you dont want it too close to the headers becasue of operating temps there??
What about on a cat bypass..whichlocation will be optimal?
From what i can gather they are coming out with a smaller dash mounted display in the future with the capability of more data inputs and logging.
TIA
I have an ARM1 already for picking up AF ratios but as i understand it, this LM-1 is WAY WAY more accurate and covers a broader spectrum of AF ratio(hence the wide band title i guess?) and is a must for any type of superchager and performance tuning
Can anyone who has one shed any tips on install, mounting..use etc etc.
Where is it installed if you have CATS. I know prior to the cats but that really doesnt leave many options...i guess you dont want it too close to the headers becasue of operating temps there??
What about on a cat bypass..whichlocation will be optimal?
From what i can gather they are coming out with a smaller dash mounted display in the future with the capability of more data inputs and logging.
TIA
06-17-2004, 02:54 AM
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HA, I got mine today. The guy at the dyno I went to was using this unit.
Can't give you any advice. I haven't even taken it out of the box yet.
In regards to it's acuracy v/s the ARM1, I'll say that the ARM 1 isn't that bad. I watched the LM1 beside the ARM 1 for 10+ dyno runs. The ARM 1 always showed rich and lean correctly, though a few times I noticed about 1 sec of lag time in showing extreme changes in AFR.
Andy
Can't give you any advice. I haven't even taken it out of the box yet.
In regards to it's acuracy v/s the ARM1, I'll say that the ARM 1 isn't that bad. I watched the LM1 beside the ARM 1 for 10+ dyno runs. The ARM 1 always showed rich and lean correctly, though a few times I noticed about 1 sec of lag time in showing extreme changes in AFR.
Andy
06-17-2004, 03:07 AM
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You can currently log up to 5 channels plus AFR at the same time with the current expander module. The new expander module, out in theoretically 6 weeks, will have most of the stuff I've built and segued in myself in one handy little package.
The 5 channels have to be 0-5V ref, but there's all sortsa stuff out there on that rubric.
I use that, plus a 0+/-20V 4-channel on my laptop. I can do 9 channels at once if the need arises. (hasn't yet)
Tony, the little lights in an ARM are kinda neato if you're stoned and need something to mellow out to. Worthless for accurate A/F measurements. MIGHT tell you 'rich' or 'lean' that's the best they can do.
You want to mount before the cats. The stock hole for the NBO2 sensor works fine for me. Not too hot (so far), not too cool. Juuuust right. Or close enough anyway. I'm using the output to emulate the NBO2, we'll see how long it lasts.
Greg
The 5 channels have to be 0-5V ref, but there's all sortsa stuff out there on that rubric.
I use that, plus a 0+/-20V 4-channel on my laptop. I can do 9 channels at once if the need arises. (hasn't yet)
Tony, the little lights in an ARM are kinda neato if you're stoned and need something to mellow out to. Worthless for accurate A/F measurements. MIGHT tell you 'rich' or 'lean' that's the best they can do.
You want to mount before the cats. The stock hole for the NBO2 sensor works fine for me. Not too hot (so far), not too cool. Juuuust right. Or close enough anyway. I'm using the output to emulate the NBO2, we'll see how long it lasts.
Greg
06-17-2004, 11:02 AM
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Well, i will say this, the ARM has saved me a couple of times in trying to figure out a problem i was having. One was an LH brain going south and another was a constant lean condition after my new intake install. Its actually been pretty handy, but as you said pretty basic.
The advatnge of the ARM as i see it is that you have a color indication that references a condition where as the LM-1 you have to interpret the number you see and figure out what you have in realtion ship to a 14:1 reference in your head.
What i may do is keep the arm one installed but have it hidden out of view and remote wire the last two red lights in a stealthy manner to the pod somewhere. This way if the engine does goes lean i will have an immediate indication of it and wont have to be looking down at an LM1 at a black and white LCD display with a constantly changing number on it.
The advatnge of the ARM as i see it is that you have a color indication that references a condition where as the LM-1 you have to interpret the number you see and figure out what you have in realtion ship to a 14:1 reference in your head.
What i may do is keep the arm one installed but have it hidden out of view and remote wire the last two red lights in a stealthy manner to the pod somewhere. This way if the engine does goes lean i will have an immediate indication of it and wont have to be looking down at an LM1 at a black and white LCD display with a constantly changing number on it.
06-17-2004, 11:48 AM
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Tony,
Actually, you can keep the ARM. You can have the LM-1 output to it on a 0-2V scale and it will now give you an accurate number - with all the colors intact. It's now a very functional piece.
Sorry, perhaps I came off a bit harsh. Those ARM things CAN work for a rich/lean indicator - I've just seen soo many people bought into the voodoo that they do, I sometimes get a bit testy about the very existenxce of S/S and such companies. I wouldn't mind if they said, " hey it's pretty OK for a rich/lean indicator, 'cuz that's all the sensor that feeds it is." But nooooo, the put numbers on it and tell people it can be accurate - it simply can't due to the design of the NBO2 sensor that it derives its data from.
Anyway, have fun with the LM-1. If you're not careful, you'll follow me down the twisted path of data junkie.
Greg
Actually, you can keep the ARM. You can have the LM-1 output to it on a 0-2V scale and it will now give you an accurate number - with all the colors intact. It's now a very functional piece.
Sorry, perhaps I came off a bit harsh. Those ARM things CAN work for a rich/lean indicator - I've just seen soo many people bought into the voodoo that they do, I sometimes get a bit testy about the very existenxce of S/S and such companies. I wouldn't mind if they said, " hey it's pretty OK for a rich/lean indicator, 'cuz that's all the sensor that feeds it is." But nooooo, the put numbers on it and tell people it can be accurate - it simply can't due to the design of the NBO2 sensor that it derives its data from.
Anyway, have fun with the LM-1. If you're not careful, you'll follow me down the twisted path of data junkie.
Greg
06-17-2004, 02:47 PM
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I've been using the LM-1 this year for tuning on the race car, since there is no dyno here. The RPM converter is essential of course.
One thing I'd recommend that they don't really say anywhere is to remove the 9v battery from the box. If it's absent, the unit will use a 12v supply from ignition, which means you don't have to turn it off and on, just leave it on.
Installation was simple, I even managed to use the stock body grommet.
The power of the thing is in the logging. just push the 'record' button and run the session. Download it after and make adjustments as necessary. The logging software in the LM-1 manager is not that great, but the Logworks software they now have is really good - be sure to use Logworks, and check out some of the reporting features.
I'm also in the process of developing some circuits to put more into the logger. So far I just have A/F and RPM. am getting electronics guy to make me dividers for the tranny speed sensor, and some other things for a buddy with a turbo, including air temp, cyl head temp, MAP.
Let me know if interested in the other circuits.
One thing I'd recommend that they don't really say anywhere is to remove the 9v battery from the box. If it's absent, the unit will use a 12v supply from ignition, which means you don't have to turn it off and on, just leave it on.
Installation was simple, I even managed to use the stock body grommet.
The power of the thing is in the logging. just push the 'record' button and run the session. Download it after and make adjustments as necessary. The logging software in the LM-1 manager is not that great, but the Logworks software they now have is really good - be sure to use Logworks, and check out some of the reporting features.
I'm also in the process of developing some circuits to put more into the logger. So far I just have A/F and RPM. am getting electronics guy to make me dividers for the tranny speed sensor, and some other things for a buddy with a turbo, including air temp, cyl head temp, MAP.
Let me know if interested in the other circuits.
06-17-2004, 03:46 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Originally posted by DK
I'm also in the process of developing some circuits to put more into the logger. So far I just have A/F and RPM. am getting electronics guy to make me dividers for the tranny speed sensor, and some other things for a buddy with a turbo, including air temp, cyl head temp, MAP.
Let me know if interested in the other circuits.
I'm also in the process of developing some circuits to put more into the logger. So far I just have A/F and RPM. am getting electronics guy to make me dividers for the tranny speed sensor, and some other things for a buddy with a turbo, including air temp, cyl head temp, MAP.
Let me know if interested in the other circuits.
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06-17-2004, 05:02 PM
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OK, you probably want the MAP and air temp too - what size MAP are you using? 3 bar or 2? He's going to make the circuits adjustable to a degree - most efficiently into 0-5v depending on reasonable values. ie. the speedo doesn't REALLY need to report 260km/hr as 5v - I'd like more granularity than that, more like 160km/hr as 5v. That's the point of making it adjustable - then doing the calibration and creating the lookup table values.
I've bf'd ya, and will be in touch.
I've bf'd ya, and will be in touch.
06-18-2004, 03:51 AM
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Me too, DK. If I'm gonna huff this thing, I want the capability of logging the initial A/F data against a number of other parameters to decide whether the Bosche brain/current injectors ('86) is sufficient. Better to crunch some numbers than bore holes!!
06-18-2004, 04:19 AM
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Guys you don't need any "real" additional circuits.
There's 5V available on the RPM converter. You need to *maybe* do a slight isolator circuit, but nothing heavy duty.
The trick is to use sensors that are already off the shelf available that utilize a 0-5V reference. (Pretty much all current OEM stuff. Even the crusty ol' LH 2.+ utilizes 0-5V stuff.)
Now, if you want to/have to do something other than 0-5V scale you need to do a little work and a little shopping at www.digikey.com or www.mouser.com
Look in the 'discussion boards' on the Innovate website. There's plenty-o-data that you can use. Also, RTFM. The expander #2 module manual will tell you about the painfully simple circuits required to do something like log battery voltage or use a Hall effect sensor or whatnot. Anybody can download it - it's under the "support" button.
It's all right there. Honest.
If all else fails you, post to the Innovate board. There's folks who have BTDT, (though I have BTDT, I have yet to post there) and Klaus (VP and creator of this wonderful little tool) is quick with answers and knows his electronics (better than I, anyway).
If you still need more info, PM me and we can chat about it sometime.
Greg
There's 5V available on the RPM converter. You need to *maybe* do a slight isolator circuit, but nothing heavy duty.
The trick is to use sensors that are already off the shelf available that utilize a 0-5V reference. (Pretty much all current OEM stuff. Even the crusty ol' LH 2.+ utilizes 0-5V stuff.)
Now, if you want to/have to do something other than 0-5V scale you need to do a little work and a little shopping at www.digikey.com or www.mouser.com
Look in the 'discussion boards' on the Innovate website. There's plenty-o-data that you can use. Also, RTFM. The expander #2 module manual will tell you about the painfully simple circuits required to do something like log battery voltage or use a Hall effect sensor or whatnot. Anybody can download it - it's under the "support" button.
It's all right there. Honest.
If all else fails you, post to the Innovate board. There's folks who have BTDT, (though I have BTDT, I have yet to post there) and Klaus (VP and creator of this wonderful little tool) is quick with answers and knows his electronics (better than I, anyway).
If you still need more info, PM me and we can chat about it sometime.
Greg
06-21-2004, 01:14 PM
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Greg's right - most of the existing sensors will work as-is -
- MAP has a 5v supply and reference voltage of 0-5v
- Air and water temp are basic termistors, and supply voltage is already 5v
Only trick now is to do the calibration and create the look-up table for Logworks. Get the factsheets for the sensors and you will be set.
Tranny speed is frequency, and something will need to be built for it - another option is to use an ABS sensor.
- MAP has a 5v supply and reference voltage of 0-5v
- Air and water temp are basic termistors, and supply voltage is already 5v
Only trick now is to do the calibration and create the look-up table for Logworks. Get the factsheets for the sensors and you will be set.
Tranny speed is frequency, and something will need to be built for it - another option is to use an ABS sensor.
06-21-2004, 03:11 PM
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DK,
True true. Don't get me wrong, one does need to do a bit more work to turn frequency into voltage.
If you need MAP sensors, you can either use the GM ones that are ~$10 each new - like all things GM they are big, bulky, and ugly looking. But cheap and easy to find. You could also use the Motorola MPX4250 series - much smaller package, lower power draw, ~$15 each depending on features. As you may have figured, yes I've been using the NMotos for a while now and I really like them.
Those who still have more time on their hands can wait for auxbox#3 to arrive. Story of the hour from Klaus is that engineering is finally done and they are just having some slowdowns sourcing parts.
Greg
True true. Don't get me wrong, one does need to do a bit more work to turn frequency into voltage.
If you need MAP sensors, you can either use the GM ones that are ~$10 each new - like all things GM they are big, bulky, and ugly looking. But cheap and easy to find. You could also use the Motorola MPX4250 series - much smaller package, lower power draw, ~$15 each depending on features. As you may have figured, yes I've been using the NMotos for a while now and I really like them.
Those who still have more time on their hands can wait for auxbox#3 to arrive. Story of the hour from Klaus is that engineering is finally done and they are just having some slowdowns sourcing parts.
Greg
06-21-2004, 06:04 PM
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I wish I had bought an ARM1!
I recently installed a PLX M300 unit. Though it works fine, has a narrow-band output [that my ROW- model car doesn't need], and was available with optional logging, I wish I had the ARM1 so that I could reliably compare results with other people here.
See my thread "Proper Air-Fuel Ratio" for more information as to what your meter should be telling you.
Best of luck!
N!
I recently installed a PLX M300 unit. Though it works fine, has a narrow-band output [that my ROW- model car doesn't need], and was available with optional logging, I wish I had the ARM1 so that I could reliably compare results with other people here.
See my thread "Proper Air-Fuel Ratio" for more information as to what your meter should be telling you.
Best of luck!
N!
06-21-2004, 06:49 PM
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Normy,
I have the same PLX unit as you. I use a copilot for datalogging, which works okay for my needs.
I used the PLX coupled w/a AFPR to correct a lean condition. See thread
I have the same PLX unit as you. I use a copilot for datalogging, which works okay for my needs.
I used the PLX coupled w/a AFPR to correct a lean condition. See thread
06-22-2004, 01:25 AM
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Hey Jim!
I took my car for a hooligan ride around Orlando about two weeks ago. I had a clipboard in the drivers seat, and watched the meter poking out of the glove compartment as you've described.
I'm rich as suspected, but not too rich. But what is disturbing is that I leaned out the car with a 3 mm wrench, and my "rough running" returned- a situation where the leaning beyond factory destroys the effect. I'm sure that running rich, though expensive.........is the solution now.
N!
Normy! '85Stow/5speed.
I took my car for a hooligan ride around Orlando about two weeks ago. I had a clipboard in the drivers seat, and watched the meter poking out of the glove compartment as you've described.
I'm rich as suspected, but not too rich. But what is disturbing is that I leaned out the car with a 3 mm wrench, and my "rough running" returned- a situation where the leaning beyond factory destroys the effect. I'm sure that running rich, though expensive.........is the solution now.
N!
Normy! '85Stow/5speed.