GT Comparisons: '89 to '90 to '91
04-23-2004, 03:55 PM
#31
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Originally posted by Greg Gray
Hi Dave tell us more about the theif and cedar tree story, I haven't heard it.
Hi Dave tell us more about the theif and cedar tree story, I haven't heard it.
A fifteen-year-old California boy who stole and crashed a 1987 Porsche 928S, later told an officer, "I had it as fast as it would go, and I wasn't letting off." The officer estimated the car was traveling "about 200 mph" at the time of the accident. When the Porsche left the road, it flew 65 to 75 yards, knocked down a pine tree, sliced neatly through two mature cedar trees -ten feet above the ground- and concluded its flight by leveling a maple tree with an eighteen-inch trunk. Examining the wreckage, a reporter for the Anne Arundel County Sun spotted the nearby remains of a compact-disc player and the Bon Jovi CD "Slippery When Wet", whose last track is "Wild in the Streets."
Airbags? We don't need no stinkin' airbags...
04-23-2004, 04:29 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Tom, thanks!
Are you kidding, this thing is a blast!
I don't drive much, but when I do, it's a dream.
And I think I've diagnosed one of the small problems it has, but I'll get into that at another time. I think it's missing a cam end cap. I believe that it's pumping oil up into the head area, and thus exhibiting a "low oil" condition. We'll see...
Are you kidding, this thing is a blast!
I don't drive much, but when I do, it's a dream.
And I think I've diagnosed one of the small problems it has, but I'll get into that at another time. I think it's missing a cam end cap. I believe that it's pumping oil up into the head area, and thus exhibiting a "low oil" condition. We'll see...
04-23-2004, 04:36 PM
#33
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Originally posted by JPTL
Mike,
You're starting to make me rethink my comments.
I'd still trade my '91 for that '89......I think.
Mike,
You're starting to make me rethink my comments.
I'd still trade my '91 for that '89......I think.
find at the time.
04-23-2004, 04:38 PM
#34
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- no PSD (it is a _great_ system, but who rebuilds the clutch packs when you have 100k or 200k miles on the transaxle? Your local 911 shop? I think not.)
Actually the 911 (I mean 964) used the same system, so they might
So when will we know it needs to be rebuilt ... when there is only one black strip instead of two behind us?
04-23-2004, 04:38 PM
#35
Don't forget that DR list is of sales...including 180ish in 92..with no known US production that year..in all likelihood..these were 91s..so add those in.
Another thought too is the fact that I bet the percentage of 5-sp 928s went up as production went down given that they were mostly special order from the factory anyway....thus could have been 50-50 in 91...
Even so..yes they are all rare..
Of course my choice is in my sig... ;-)
Later,
Tom
midlman@rennlist.net
89GT
Another thought too is the fact that I bet the percentage of 5-sp 928s went up as production went down given that they were mostly special order from the factory anyway....thus could have been 50-50 in 91...
Even so..yes they are all rare..
Of course my choice is in my sig... ;-)
Later,
Tom
midlman@rennlist.net
89GT
Originally posted by MikeN
According to DR's site....
Total US Production, both AT and MT:
'89 835
'90 620
'91 263
Now we all know that a stick 928 was a very low produced item, and if we use an 80% AT vs 20% Stick production variance.......then by all means a '91 GT could very well be rarer then an '89. Some even put the mix at 90% vs 10%........which would make the '91 much more rare, with the '90 not that far past the '89 number.
According to DR's site....
Total US Production, both AT and MT:
'89 835
'90 620
'91 263
Now we all know that a stick 928 was a very low produced item, and if we use an 80% AT vs 20% Stick production variance.......then by all means a '91 GT could very well be rarer then an '89. Some even put the mix at 90% vs 10%........which would make the '91 much more rare, with the '90 not that far past the '89 number.
04-23-2004, 04:48 PM
#36
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Originally posted by John Veninger
Actually the 911 (I mean 964) used the same system, so they might
Actually the 911 (I mean 964) used the same system, so they might
So when will we know it needs to be rebuilt ... when there is only one black strip instead of two behind us?
OTOH, unlike the 'real' clutch plate those PSD plates only get used when the PSD decides to use them. So, they might outlast us modulo powerslides and track time.
We could post a question to the 964 list. Wanna bet lunch on how many useful replies we'd get?
04-23-2004, 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by Tom. M
Don't forget that DR list is of sales...including 180ish in 92..with no known US production that year..in all likelihood..these were 91s..so add those in.
Another thought too is the fact that I bet the percentage of 5-sp 928s went up as production went down given that they were mostly special order from the factory anyway....thus could have been 50-50 in 91...
Even so..yes they are all rare..
Of course my choice is in my sig... ;-)
Later,
Tom
midlman@rennlist.net
89GT
Don't forget that DR list is of sales...including 180ish in 92..with no known US production that year..in all likelihood..these were 91s..so add those in.
Another thought too is the fact that I bet the percentage of 5-sp 928s went up as production went down given that they were mostly special order from the factory anyway....thus could have been 50-50 in 91...
Even so..yes they are all rare..
Of course my choice is in my sig... ;-)
Later,
Tom
midlman@rennlist.net
89GT
Given that the 928 was most always pushed/produced with the AT, and given the very few GTS 5 speeds, I would think production of 5 speeds went way down as years went on.
04-23-2004, 05:51 PM
#38
My thought were more along the likes of that most 5-spds were ordered by the true enthusiasts (I know...fire suit on)...and that wouldn't change much per year..but if overall production went down, then the percentage of 5-spds increases..
Interesting note...we here in the PacNW have quite a nice sampling of 928s...from several GTS's many GTs..mostly 90 (3 or 4) and 91 (know of at least 6)...and only one lonely 89GT (mine ;-) )..There was an 89 5-sp at one time..but now in cali....
Later,
Tom
midlman@rennlist.net
89GT (sport seats and no factory rear air...1 of 4??)
Interesting note...we here in the PacNW have quite a nice sampling of 928s...from several GTS's many GTs..mostly 90 (3 or 4) and 91 (know of at least 6)...and only one lonely 89GT (mine ;-) )..There was an 89 5-sp at one time..but now in cali....
Later,
Tom
midlman@rennlist.net
89GT (sport seats and no factory rear air...1 of 4??)
Originally posted by MikeN
Good points Tom, but I have mostly heard the opposite.......that as 928 production was winding down, dealers mostly had to take spec 928s with other model orders. What would be interesting to see is what the dealer demand was for which type of tranny back then. Was demand high for 5 speeds, but a dealer couldn't get them, or did most dealers just order/get ATs?
Given that the 928 was most always pushed/produced with the AT, and given the very few GTS 5 speeds, I would think production of 5 speeds went way down as years went on.
Good points Tom, but I have mostly heard the opposite.......that as 928 production was winding down, dealers mostly had to take spec 928s with other model orders. What would be interesting to see is what the dealer demand was for which type of tranny back then. Was demand high for 5 speeds, but a dealer couldn't get them, or did most dealers just order/get ATs?
Given that the 928 was most always pushed/produced with the AT, and given the very few GTS 5 speeds, I would think production of 5 speeds went way down as years went on.
04-24-2004, 12:15 AM
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It appears that Chuck's info with regard to the 90s and 91s is very dependant on Dennis Kao. Two questions come to mind.
1. How accurate was Dennis' information with regard to the 89s that Chuck ended up documenting? That would give some idea as to how accurate the info is on the 90s and 91s
2. What was the source of Dennis' information in the first place?
1. How accurate was Dennis' information with regard to the 89s that Chuck ended up documenting? That would give some idea as to how accurate the info is on the 90s and 91s
2. What was the source of Dennis' information in the first place?
04-24-2004, 09:31 AM
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Hi all,
I'm not sure on the total number of 90 and 91 928 GT's and for that matter, I'm not sure how many 89 GT's are really out there. Right now, I've got 57 documented and I can't possibly know about all of them. How many are squirreled away in a garage somewhere that we may never know about (like the car that Tom just bought)? My guess on the number of 89 GT's is somewhere around 75? The reason the number of 89's is so disproportionate is because I have been collecting info on the 89's for about 8 or 9 years and only about 2-3 years on the 90 and 91's. I think some of the info that Dennis supplied came from an old registry that no longer exists and some of it he gathered himself. I have some additional information regarding the cars listed in orange that needs to be added.... time permitting.
Here is the 89 GT JPTL refers to:
1989 928 GT
I have seen this car personally and can attest to the fact that it is one of the nicest 89 GT's I've seen. True, it does need to loose the D90's and replace them with the club sports to be original.
I don't think the production of 928's in 1992 were 1991 GT's. Rather, Porsche introduced the GTS starting in 1992 as an early 1993 model. There are two series of VIN's for the 1993 928 GTS's, the cars produced early in 1992 have VINs that end with 815xxx and the cars produced in late 1992 and early 1993 as 1993 models have VINs that end with 820xxx.
1993 928 GTS's (late model 93's appear first)
Dealers were in fact having to take GTS's by the time production was winding down in 1994 and 1995. Thankfully, the 928 came pretty heavily optioned (at least when compared to the 911) because the dealers were not going to add many additional options and drive the price up on a car they were finding more and more difficult to sell. There are very few customer ordered cars out there and when you come across one its a pretty rare bird and stands out like a sore thumb. A couple come to mind, most obvious the Pearlglanz GTS, there is also a speed yellow 1995 GTS and the black/black 1995 GTS with the black wheels all of which were ordered by individuals rather than a dealer spec'd car. The MSRP on all three of these examples was north of $100k!
I think the number of GTS's with manual transmissions will be about 30-40% of the total number of GTS's and believe its just how the dealers ordered them because it was a no cost option. They sometimes just checked the box for the 5-speed instead of the box for the automatic. Lucky us!
I'm not sure on the total number of 90 and 91 928 GT's and for that matter, I'm not sure how many 89 GT's are really out there. Right now, I've got 57 documented and I can't possibly know about all of them. How many are squirreled away in a garage somewhere that we may never know about (like the car that Tom just bought)? My guess on the number of 89 GT's is somewhere around 75? The reason the number of 89's is so disproportionate is because I have been collecting info on the 89's for about 8 or 9 years and only about 2-3 years on the 90 and 91's. I think some of the info that Dennis supplied came from an old registry that no longer exists and some of it he gathered himself. I have some additional information regarding the cars listed in orange that needs to be added.... time permitting.
Here is the 89 GT JPTL refers to:
1989 928 GT
I have seen this car personally and can attest to the fact that it is one of the nicest 89 GT's I've seen. True, it does need to loose the D90's and replace them with the club sports to be original.
I don't think the production of 928's in 1992 were 1991 GT's. Rather, Porsche introduced the GTS starting in 1992 as an early 1993 model. There are two series of VIN's for the 1993 928 GTS's, the cars produced early in 1992 have VINs that end with 815xxx and the cars produced in late 1992 and early 1993 as 1993 models have VINs that end with 820xxx.
1993 928 GTS's (late model 93's appear first)
Dealers were in fact having to take GTS's by the time production was winding down in 1994 and 1995. Thankfully, the 928 came pretty heavily optioned (at least when compared to the 911) because the dealers were not going to add many additional options and drive the price up on a car they were finding more and more difficult to sell. There are very few customer ordered cars out there and when you come across one its a pretty rare bird and stands out like a sore thumb. A couple come to mind, most obvious the Pearlglanz GTS, there is also a speed yellow 1995 GTS and the black/black 1995 GTS with the black wheels all of which were ordered by individuals rather than a dealer spec'd car. The MSRP on all three of these examples was north of $100k!
I think the number of GTS's with manual transmissions will be about 30-40% of the total number of GTS's and believe its just how the dealers ordered them because it was a no cost option. They sometimes just checked the box for the 5-speed instead of the box for the automatic. Lucky us!
04-24-2004, 11:01 AM
#41
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Chuck,
How complete has Dennis' information turned out to be? In other words, how many cars have you found that were not on dennis' list?
Doesn't Porsche have records of the cars sold? I know you can get a certificate, so there must be some reference data base.
How complete has Dennis' information turned out to be? In other words, how many cars have you found that were not on dennis' list?
Doesn't Porsche have records of the cars sold? I know you can get a certificate, so there must be some reference data base.
04-24-2004, 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by fst951
The 1988 that you are talking about is the Club Sport model. It is not really a G.T. It didn't have a.c. sunroof, or even power windows. It really was stripped down, but had the same exact wheels, trans and motor as the 1989. At least one made it accross the pond, and I have heard rumors of a second. The first I had. It sold for a lot of money over two years ago to a gentleman out East for his private collection. Less than 6k miles on it.
It was a nice car.
The 1988 that you are talking about is the Club Sport model. It is not really a G.T. It didn't have a.c. sunroof, or even power windows. It really was stripped down, but had the same exact wheels, trans and motor as the 1989. At least one made it accross the pond, and I have heard rumors of a second. The first I had. It sold for a lot of money over two years ago to a gentleman out East for his private collection. Less than 6k miles on it.
It was a nice car.
Erkka
1992 928 GTS 5-speed non sport at the moment
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04-24-2004, 06:03 PM
#43
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Erkka
weren't all the CS numbers sequential across the World ? IIRC the US vin differs only in the "AB" bit, the rest being the same as the RoW vin which is aparently hidden somewhere on US cars.
I know that my SE is supposedly No.2 of the 42 produced but out of the 29 or 30 cars traced it is the earliest.
I would say the SE has to be the best GT ! only 42 made, essentially a CS with AC, Elec windows, Cruise and ICE added back in, musn't forget those all important rear sunshades.
Jon
weren't all the CS numbers sequential across the World ? IIRC the US vin differs only in the "AB" bit, the rest being the same as the RoW vin which is aparently hidden somewhere on US cars.
I know that my SE is supposedly No.2 of the 42 produced but out of the 29 or 30 cars traced it is the earliest.
I would say the SE has to be the best GT ! only 42 made, essentially a CS with AC, Elec windows, Cruise and ICE added back in, musn't forget those all important rear sunshades.
Jon
