Searching for a 5 speed S4 ...A couple of Questions....Cup 1's/Aero Mirrors...
09-22-2021, 10:32 AM
#16
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A lot of this will depend on what you want the car to be for you and how much work and maintenance you are comfortable doing.
I bought a 1987 928 S4 5-speed that had almost $90k in receipts worth of work and parts from just the 5 years prior to my purchase of it. In theory, it sounds good that a car has had that level of attention paid to it. However, there are two major problems with that situation. The first problem is that the car was in bad enough condition to need that level of attention. Second, is that the quality of work may or may not be up to the standard that you expect.
With that in mind, you should treat the car that you're currently looking at as a car that has had band-aids applied and may have many other issues lurking that are not immediately obvious. Those band-aids may be outstanding and last indefinitely and be exactly what you want. Or, you may find out the hard way that shortcuts were taken when they were applied. You won't really know when/if you need to remove them to work on something. Just keep in mind that if the car was cared for in a way that justified the expense of replacement interior components, the rest of the car may have been driven and treated in a way that will wear out major components earlier than expected.
Personally, I like the steering wheel and mirror upgrades. And if they were made simply for the sake of personal taste, then there's no problem there. But if those and other changes were made out of necessity, then it becomes a little more concerning.
I agree with your implication that the non-stock parts should lower the value of this particular car. Not because they are non-stock, but because they may be indicative of other problems. Or not. Maybe the car is otherwise perfect. But, it's a gamble.
Given that you said "no projects", and if your budget allows, I would move on and look for one that has a better documented maintenance (and upgrade) history. It will be more expensive, but less risk. And definitely get a PPI (pre purchase inspection) done by someone familiar with 928's.
I bought a 1987 928 S4 5-speed that had almost $90k in receipts worth of work and parts from just the 5 years prior to my purchase of it. In theory, it sounds good that a car has had that level of attention paid to it. However, there are two major problems with that situation. The first problem is that the car was in bad enough condition to need that level of attention. Second, is that the quality of work may or may not be up to the standard that you expect.
With that in mind, you should treat the car that you're currently looking at as a car that has had band-aids applied and may have many other issues lurking that are not immediately obvious. Those band-aids may be outstanding and last indefinitely and be exactly what you want. Or, you may find out the hard way that shortcuts were taken when they were applied. You won't really know when/if you need to remove them to work on something. Just keep in mind that if the car was cared for in a way that justified the expense of replacement interior components, the rest of the car may have been driven and treated in a way that will wear out major components earlier than expected.
Personally, I like the steering wheel and mirror upgrades. And if they were made simply for the sake of personal taste, then there's no problem there. But if those and other changes were made out of necessity, then it becomes a little more concerning.
I agree with your implication that the non-stock parts should lower the value of this particular car. Not because they are non-stock, but because they may be indicative of other problems. Or not. Maybe the car is otherwise perfect. But, it's a gamble.
Given that you said "no projects", and if your budget allows, I would move on and look for one that has a better documented maintenance (and upgrade) history. It will be more expensive, but less risk. And definitely get a PPI (pre purchase inspection) done by someone familiar with 928's.
As you say, the problem is what led to the interior swap out? Carfax is clean but the car could have been very neglected and at some point "refreshed" by a PO but to what level? I'd need to see all docs at this point, car is a 2 hour plane ride away, etc.
Thanks for the input!
09-22-2021, 11:07 AM
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09-22-2021, 11:13 AM
#19
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Upper PS rear quarter window trim connector piece is askew. Might indicate the car was repainted at some point in it's past.
09-22-2021, 11:16 AM
#20
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Nice looking car!
What is the mileage and asking price?
What is the mileage and asking price?
09-22-2021, 12:00 PM
#21
As a long time owner of an S4 I can tell you that car has what I would call “standard” upgrades that were done as newer versions of the 928 were developed. They stopped short by not painting the tail. And those wheels, I think I’ve upgraded at least four times as new Porsche wheels came out, finally stopping at 18” lightweight turbo twists. Back in the late ‘90’s if your seats wore out it was not impossible to find a replacement set from a wrecking yard, but it’s a shame that this car’s luxury seats are gone. Aside from that nothing on the car appears to be irreversible.
The photos that you need to concern yourself with are of the engine bay and undercarriage. Post photos of those.
I admire your quest for a manual, but there is a reason that there were so few of them built in a 928 platform. The 928 was intended as a luxury grand touring car, a breath of fresh air for businessmen that wanted both performance and luxury with a Porsche badge.
The photos that you need to concern yourself with are of the engine bay and undercarriage. Post photos of those.
I admire your quest for a manual, but there is a reason that there were so few of them built in a 928 platform. The 928 was intended as a luxury grand touring car, a breath of fresh air for businessmen that wanted both performance and luxury with a Porsche badge.
09-22-2021, 12:11 PM
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09-22-2021, 12:23 PM
#23
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95k miles...$38.5 asking.
Tired but well maintaind manual with 130k miles went for $29k (with buyer fees) on BAT a week or so ago. S4 manuals are rare (only a few for sale nationwide)...and seem to command a premium. +25% according to Hagerty valuations.
Tired but well maintaind manual with 130k miles went for $29k (with buyer fees) on BAT a week or so ago. S4 manuals are rare (only a few for sale nationwide)...and seem to command a premium. +25% according to Hagerty valuations.
09-22-2021, 12:43 PM
#24
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"S4 manuals are rare (only a few for sale nationwide)...and seem to command a premium. +25% according to Hagerty valuations.[/QUOTE]
There is a reason the S4 manuals are in short supply. Only produced for half the production year, as the GT replaced it in mid-89. I think the VIN ending in 1000 may be the last S4 manual produced for the North American market.
Having owned an '89 manual and used it for my track car for about 8 years, I'll verify it is a very good model. For my current usage (I'd been without a 928 for 6 years), I started looking for 'the right' '89 automatic about 12 months ago. Never found one, so settled on a '95 automatic that checked most of my 'boxes'.
Good luck with this car, or in your search for a different one. And, if you want to see a lot of 928's in one place, check the sticky above regarding 25th Annual 928 Frenzy. Come to Sterling VA at the Odds and Ends Detailing shop on Saturday. Probably be at least 50 928's there.
Gary
There is a reason the S4 manuals are in short supply. Only produced for half the production year, as the GT replaced it in mid-89. I think the VIN ending in 1000 may be the last S4 manual produced for the North American market.
Having owned an '89 manual and used it for my track car for about 8 years, I'll verify it is a very good model. For my current usage (I'd been without a 928 for 6 years), I started looking for 'the right' '89 automatic about 12 months ago. Never found one, so settled on a '95 automatic that checked most of my 'boxes'.
Good luck with this car, or in your search for a different one. And, if you want to see a lot of 928's in one place, check the sticky above regarding 25th Annual 928 Frenzy. Come to Sterling VA at the Odds and Ends Detailing shop on Saturday. Probably be at least 50 928's there.
Gary
Last edited by Gary Knox; 09-22-2021 at 12:47 PM.
09-22-2021, 12:49 PM
#25
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As someone who recently sold my well sorted and properly upgraded 88 S4 5spd for $34K. Which I felt was top of market for that car and sold by a premium dealer that basically fixes anything that isn't working. I feel this car at $38K in the ballpark of fairly priced to a little high on the market. It's a beautiful exterior. At that price however, I would expect to be from a dealer, or have a PPI included to you have some assurances of condition. Clearly the car has had some updates/upgrades, having clarity on that will be useful. Also check on the motor mount age and shocks/bushings. There may be some room to negotiate. Best of luck and we hope to see you with that car soon.
09-22-2021, 12:56 PM
#26
Just a quick note. That steering wheel (930 S) was never an option available from the factory on the 928. It's a desirable upgrade like most of the things on this 928. All 928's in 89 came with the standard plain 4 spoke steering wheel. I think the only option was an extended hub that put the steering wheel closer to the driver.
Also given that the dash was likely replaced, better test the function of all the vents etc to make sure everything was properly reconnected when it was put in.
And like shark mentioned, the engine/drivetrain and underside pics are needed to properly evaluate the car. At that price, it better be spotless underneath.
Also given that the dash was likely replaced, better test the function of all the vents etc to make sure everything was properly reconnected when it was put in.
And like shark mentioned, the engine/drivetrain and underside pics are needed to properly evaluate the car. At that price, it better be spotless underneath.
09-22-2021, 01:02 PM
#27
Oh, and for some perspective, there were about 200ish 89 5spd and about 110 89 GT's brought to North America (not exact numbers but rough guesstimates).
The 89 5sp is one of the rarest of the 928 along with the GTS 5sps and the 89 GTs.
Don't give up on this one just yet, do your research on the issues pointed out here.
Definitely recommend getting a pre-purchase inspection done by someone who knows 928s. If you post your general location we can probably suggest someone who's qualified to do it.
Also recommend checking out the 928 Owners club. They have a registry of the 928 and lots of info there.
BTW, this one is not listed there yet so if you do purchase it, add it to the registry too
good luck!
The 89 5sp is one of the rarest of the 928 along with the GTS 5sps and the 89 GTs.
Don't give up on this one just yet, do your research on the issues pointed out here.
Definitely recommend getting a pre-purchase inspection done by someone who knows 928s. If you post your general location we can probably suggest someone who's qualified to do it.
Also recommend checking out the 928 Owners club. They have a registry of the 928 and lots of info there.
BTW, this one is not listed there yet so if you do purchase it, add it to the registry too
good luck!
09-22-2021, 02:14 PM
#28
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Thanks for the amazing responses!
I will try to make it to Frenzy this weekend. Are the cars displayed Saturday and Sunday or is Saturday the main deal?
I've asked seller for more pics and copies of service records.
Kevin..I believe there's been paintwork.
Tom. Thanks for clarification on steering wheel.
Micheal...I saw your BAT sale..I've actually read through every 5 speed sale on BAT from the past year as well as many of the AT sales...a wealth of info and incredibly valuable in researching colors, options, etc.
I will try to make it to Frenzy this weekend. Are the cars displayed Saturday and Sunday or is Saturday the main deal?
I've asked seller for more pics and copies of service records.
Kevin..I believe there's been paintwork.
Tom. Thanks for clarification on steering wheel.
Micheal...I saw your BAT sale..I've actually read through every 5 speed sale on BAT from the past year as well as many of the AT sales...a wealth of info and incredibly valuable in researching colors, options, etc.
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Michael Benno (09-22-2021)
09-22-2021, 02:58 PM
#29
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The cars are displayed Saturday only and owners/cars start arriving about 8 AM. Late morning or early afternoon there will probably be some tech sessions regarding specific maintenance or repair item procedures.. Attendees will range from the extreme southeast to TX, MI, and New England. By mid-afternoon Saturday, a lot of the cars will be leaving for a 'fun run' through the VA countryside. Best to arrive - if you can - by about 10 AM. Attendees are supposed to register, but registration is now closed. IF you do come, ask to meet Greg Nichols and work out any 'visitor attendee' issues with him.
Also, on both Friday evening and Saturday evenings, a large percentage of the cars are in a designated area at the Holiday Inn which is the 'discounted place' to stay for those attending. AND BS sessions there last until LATE!!
I suggest you read through all the thread in the sticky about Frenzy above for further info. You can also go to the website www.928frenzy.com for info. On the upper right, there is a box to click on for pictures of previous Frenzy meets. Here is a link to one of the 'pictures' sub screens: http://www.928frenzy.org/photos/Fren...ddsEnds_1.html
I'll be glad to chat with you if you attend. The current GTS is the 7th 928 I've owned in the past 23 years.
Gary Knox.
Also, on both Friday evening and Saturday evenings, a large percentage of the cars are in a designated area at the Holiday Inn which is the 'discounted place' to stay for those attending. AND BS sessions there last until LATE!!
I suggest you read through all the thread in the sticky about Frenzy above for further info. You can also go to the website www.928frenzy.com for info. On the upper right, there is a box to click on for pictures of previous Frenzy meets. Here is a link to one of the 'pictures' sub screens: http://www.928frenzy.org/photos/Fren...ddsEnds_1.html
I'll be glad to chat with you if you attend. The current GTS is the 7th 928 I've owned in the past 23 years.
Gary Knox.
Last edited by Gary Knox; 09-22-2021 at 03:01 PM.
09-22-2021, 03:33 PM
#30
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The cars are displayed Saturday only and owners/cars start arriving about 8 AM. Late morning or early afternoon there will probably be some tech sessions regarding specific maintenance or repair item procedures.. Attendees will range from the extreme southeast to TX, MI, and New England. By mid-afternoon Saturday, a lot of the cars will be leaving for a 'fun run' through the VA countryside. Best to arrive - if you can - by about 10 AM. Attendees are supposed to register, but registration is now closed. IF you do come, ask to meet Greg Nichols and work out any 'visitor attendee' issues with him.
Also, on both Friday evening and Saturday evenings, a large percentage of the cars are in a designated area at the Holiday Inn which is the 'discounted place' to stay for those attending. AND BS sessions there last until LATE!!
I suggest you read through all the thread in the sticky about Frenzy above for further info. You can also go to the website www.928frenzy.com for info. On the upper right, there is a box to click on for pictures of previous Frenzy meets. Here is a link to one of the 'pictures' sub screens: http://www.928frenzy.org/photos/Fren...ddsEnds_1.html
I'll be glad to chat with you if you attend. The current GTS is the 7th 928 I've owned in the past 23 years.
Gary Knox.
Also, on both Friday evening and Saturday evenings, a large percentage of the cars are in a designated area at the Holiday Inn which is the 'discounted place' to stay for those attending. AND BS sessions there last until LATE!!
I suggest you read through all the thread in the sticky about Frenzy above for further info. You can also go to the website www.928frenzy.com for info. On the upper right, there is a box to click on for pictures of previous Frenzy meets. Here is a link to one of the 'pictures' sub screens: http://www.928frenzy.org/photos/Fren...ddsEnds_1.html
I'll be glad to chat with you if you attend. The current GTS is the 7th 928 I've owned in the past 23 years.
Gary Knox.
Thanks!