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Those are mostly prototypes or press cars pictured
Looked at this some more, I need to correct myself.
the pictures ALL show prototypes, except for these interior pictures which show a 77-78 leather dash AC car (Has 77-78 instruments with leather, which I've never seen an example of) Its after press cars as I dont think any of those had leather dashboards:
This picture is interesting, wish I could see it better. This shows a non-leather non AC car with extra button/light near the clock and something very purposely labeled on the dashboard above the vents. I would guess prototype car here.
Interesting read and interesting time in Automovie sales history. Porsche clearly made some marketing and positioning mistakes over time with the 928. In the market place it was compared to the Corvette and seen that way. The upfront V8 and pop-up head lamps clearly added to that confusion. By contrast the Ferrari 412 and Jaguar XJS retained their V12's and the BMW 633CSi retained it's inline race inspired 6, that and lack of pop up headlamps were instrumental in their market place differentiation. The BMW had rear A/C too, must have been a German thing. Because of poor sales... by the early 80's Porsche relented and changed their marketing position on the 928 to attract the bad boy corvette image type . Mistake, it didnt work the early 80's car didn't sell as well as the late 70's cars despite offering higher performance levels, the 80 to 82 recession didn't help either but the Jaguar XJ-S with well deserved reputation and thirsty V12 out sold the 928 from 1982 on. The big cat did very well with TWR racing from 1981 to 84 which helped. The XJS set still talks about it.
I often think about what Porsche could have done to make the 928 be taken more seriously as an upmarket GT at the time. This may be controversial to say now, but I think the type of exposure in Scarface and Risky Business did the 928 no favors at the time and sales data support that view. When I read the brochure above I don't think about the type of characters in the movie. Perhaps Porsche should have built a 928 rally car as a marketing tool...it may have done well with it's well managed polar moments. They also could have used Characters like Gordon Gekko (Michael Douglas) in movie Wall Street. His character did wonders for the Motorola Cell Phone and would have been more consistent with Porsche's early and later positioning efforts. They should have supported Brumos far more the way Jaguar supported TWR. Clearly the early 80's marketing was a mistake. Corvette and Camaro were a better Corvette and Camaro and at a far lower price. Then 1986 rolls around and Porsche figures it out somewhat. Al Holbert brought the 928 the exposure it should have always had from the beginning, high speed GT. 86 and 87 were better sales years for the 928 as a result. I'm also going to bang the drum again on the 928's steering feel, it was too quick, too numb and too heavy for a lux GT at the time. The XJS had far lighter steering and it felt functionally more precise than a 928. Same was true for the BMW 633csi. This was something Porsche waited far too long to resolve and it hurt the 928's broader appeal immensely.
Last edited by icsamerica; 04-29-2021 at 01:44 PM.
I love how well it explains the 'negative scrub radius' and why it's important, and why the 928 wheel has the offsets it does.
It also does a nice job explaining the Weissach axle and why it does what it does.
The focus on how stable the 928 is is interesting. How resistant to 'spinning' it is.
They mention the 914, but seem to have conveniently 'forgotten' the oversteer issues the rear engined 911 had.
Gotta love how they note that the 'ladies' will appreciate the illuminated makeup mirror, and that the power brakes will allow the 'weaker sex' to stop the car safely when needed.
And especially that the husband can allow the wife to drive the car, without having to worry about her being tempted to drive it fast.
But if you read it carefully, it's rather apparent that a large portion of this was to give the salesmen ways to address the idea that the 928 wasn't a 'real Porsche'. I think they knew the purists were going to take a LOT of convincing before they would accept the 928. The part about the salesman needing to size up the customer and evaluating which car was of interest before declaring if the Turbo or 928 was the 'flagship' is very telling in this regard.
And as far as the 928 being the replacement for the 911, we've been over (and over and over) this before.
I highly doubt that Porsche wanted to replace the 911. It was their primarly product. It was their history. It was (and really still IS) what people think of when they hear the name Porsche.
But there was a very good chance the 911 would not be able to be sold in the US by the late 70s. Proposed safety rules (that never came to be) and emissions rules (that did happen) were going to doom it. The same physics that killed the Corvair were threatening the 911 and the Beetle.
Ralph Nader went after the Corvair because it was mass produced. And readily available to most folks. And very much a handful. The 'sporty' versions were pretty potent, and had the typical 'rear engined oversteer issues'. They weren't as big of an issue in the Beetle because it wasn't powerful enough to get folks into trouble that easily. The 911 had those issues, but it was a niche product. The owners were usually better drivers and more affluent. The car was much more robust, so crashes often had less severe outcomes for the occupants (the Corvair was really flimsy - a true 'soup can on wheels').
There were some proposed safety rules that would assess the stability and suceptitblity to spinning out on a curve. There's no way the 911 (or the Corvair or Beetle) could have met those.
Fortunatley, those rules never came to pass.
The emissions issues were also big. Note that the Beetle stopped being sold in the US when the big changes that added catalytic converters went into effect in 75. They kept making and selling the Beetle other places, but all the VW aircooleds went away here.
Porsche put a big effort into making the air cooled motors meet smog rules. It robbed them of a lot of power, but they kept going.
When the stability rules failed to materialize, Porsche realized they didn't HAVE TO abandon the 911. So they didn't
Both the safety rules (that didn't happen) and the emissions rules (that did) were being proposed back in the 60s.
Porsche saw the writing on the wall and made a car that would meet rules that were being made (even the ones that didn't make it all the way) and ones that were just being proposed.
They knew full well that replacing the 911 would be a huge change.
That's part of what this book covers.
It helps the salesmen explain to both existing and prospective new customers why the 928 is such a great car.
If you read it carefully, they reference safety rules, noise rules, and even emissions a bit (not much). And how well the 928 will address them.
Originally Posted by GT6ixer
Very cool! Thanks for sharing!
I've been theorizing for years here on RL and with friends that the popular narrative that the 928 was intended to replace the 911 was incorrect. You hear it in almost every story or video about the history of the 928. Projeckt 928 alludes to Porsche coming up with a design for the 928 as a way of hedging their bet that the 911 was going to be short lived for the American market. I always believed that was only a small part of why they would invest so heavily in the 928, their first ever clean sheet design. This booklet is the first material I have read from Porsche themselves that offers an alternative view to the popular myth that the 928 was designed to replace the 911.
Reading the first two pages and the page entitled "A Technical Alternative - Porsche 928" it is clear that the object of the car WAS NOT to replace the 911 but rather to increase Porsche products range and be offered as an alternative to the 911. I have offered this very sentiment before and with this document there is now written proof of Porsche's REAL intent for the 928.
Originally Posted by hacker-pschorr
Awesome piece. Add this to my never ending list of pieces I need find for my collection.
It's not really a theory or a narrative, it's well known the 911 was slated to be retired after 1981 and probably would have been had Peter Schutz not taken over as CEO.
In a way, saying the 928 was replacing the 911 is incorrect since the 928 was moving Porsche in a different direction since it's a completely different car. This goes down the road of endless semantics. Either way, the original plan was the 928 would carry on as the 911 faded away.
This piece was most likely published long before it was to be known the 911 was being axed. The last thing any automaker wants is such information to be known publicly. This could very well be a marketing piece designed to kill rumors of the 911's demise since they still had to sell them for a few more years.
Originally Posted by GT6ixer
I just don't view it that way. In 1972, Porsche was not planning to phase out the 911 in 1981. That was only the plan likely a few years previous, around the launch of the 928. So to the say the 928 was designed to replace the 911 is a falsehood IMO. Perhaps there was some sentiment with Porsche's decision makers in the late '70s that if the 911s run was to end that the 928 could pick up the void. But even that I don't buy. Porsche knew full well that the 928 was in a whole different class than the 911 and would never be a car that 911 enthusiasts would see as an equivalent or evolution. To assume that is to concede that Porsche had no clue about their customer base.
As far as the Schutz story goes, there is no refuting the fact that he saved the 911 and famously drew the line off the board and on to the wall. However, every story I ever read about that never attributes Schutz referring to the 928 as an unsuitable replacement for the 911 and thus why the 911 had to keep going. I believe he knew full we'll that the 928 was an up-class GT sports car, born into existence solely to expand Porsche's product line and was never intended to replace a potential loss in 911 sales.
Last edited by Wisconsin Joe; 05-03-2021 at 08:08 PM.
I don't think I've ever seen it written anywhere, but I feel like Porsche felt the 911 was no longer well-suited to the U.S. market. It was an aging design with very few creature comforts, and it was never intended to drive for hours at high speeds on super highways. It was literally designed for a world that was rapidly disappearing, and definitely no longer reflected their largest market.
The 911 was designed for Germany in the early 1960s; the 928 was designed for the U.S. in the early 1970s.
I don't think I've ever seen it written anywhere, but I feel like Porsche felt the 911 was no longer well-suited to the U.S. market. It was an aging design with very few creature comforts, and it was never intended to drive for hours at high speeds on super highways. It was literally designed for a world that was rapidly disappearing, and definitely no longer reflected their largest market.
The 911 was designed for Germany in the early 1960s; the 928 was designed for the U.S. in the early 1970s.
Maybe, but then how do you explain the success of a car like the Datsun 240Z? In 1972, the year Porsche started designing the 928, Datsun sold around 55,000 240Zs in the US alone. That's near as many cars sold in one year as 928s Porsche built over 18 years. The 240Z had few creature comforts and was a sports car intended to be driven spiritedly on the street, not highway. If anything, the success of the 911 in the 60's inspired the sales of the 240Z for the common guy who wanted a 911 but couldn't afford it and didn't want to drive outdated and unreliable British sports cars of the era.
There is no doubt Porsche saw how successful the 240Z was in the US in the early 70's and knew there was still a large market for small, light, and agile sports cars. The 914 was likely in response to this. I believe Porsche in the 70's was purely looking to diversify their product by going upmarket with the 928 and downmarket with the 924. But of course none of those cars have a chance of success without the 911 establishing the brand. They needed the 911 to survive if they hoped to sell other cars in different markets. Guys like Peter Schutz new that. Just my two cents. Well ok, maybe 4 cents. I like to blather on about this subject.
I love how well it explains the 'negative scrub radius' and why it's important, and why the 928 wheel has the offsets it does.
It also does a nice job explaining the Weissach axle and why it does what it does.
The focus on how stable the 928 is is interesting. How resistant to 'spinning' it is.
They mention the 914, but seem to have conveniently 'forgotten' the oversteer issues the rear engined 911 had.
Gotta love how they note that the 'ladies' will appreciate the illuminated makeup mirror, and that the power brakes will allow the 'weaker sex' to stop the car safely when needed.
And especially that the husband can allow the wife to drive the car, without having to worry about her being tempted to drive it fast.
But if you read it carefully, it's rather apparent that a large portion of this was to give the salesmen ways to address the idea that the 928 wasn't a 'real Porsche'. I think they knew the purists were going to take a LOT of convincing before they would accept the 928. The part about the salesman needing to size up the customer and evaluating which car was of interest before declaring if the Turbo or 928 was the 'flagship' is very telling in this regard.
And as far as the 928 being the replacement for the 911, we've been over (and over and over) this before.
I highly doubt that Porsche wanted to replace the 911. It was their primarly product. It was their history. It was (and really still IS) what people think of when they hear the name Porsche.
But there was a very good chance the 911 would not be able to be sold in the US by the late 70s. Proposed safety rules (that never came to be) and emissions rules (that did happen) were going to doom it. The same physics that killed the Corvair were threatening the 911 and the Beetle.
Ralph Nader went after the Corvair because it was mass produced. And readily available to most folks. And very much a handful. The 'sporty' versions were pretty potent, and had the typical 'rear engined oversteer issues'. They weren't as big of an issue in the Beetle because it wasn't powerful enough to get folks into trouble that easily. The 911 had those issues, but it was a niche product. The owners were usually better drivers and more affluent. The car was much more robust, so crashes often had less severe outcomes for the occupants (the Corvair was really flimsy - a true 'soup can on wheels').
There were some proposed safety rules that would assess the stability and suceptitblity to spinning out on a curve. There's no way the 911 (or the Corvair or Beetle) could have met those.
Fortunatley, those rules never came to pass.
The emissions issues were also big. Note that the Beetle stopped being sold in the US when the big changes that added catalytic converters went into effect in 75. They kept making and selling the Beetle other places, but all the VW aircooleds went away here.
Porsche put a big effort into making the air cooled motors meet smog rules. It robbed them of a lot of power, but they kept going.
When the stability rules failed to materialize, Porsche realized they didn't HAVE TO abandon the 911. So they didn't
Both the safety rules (that didn't happen) and the emissions rules (that did) were being proposed back in the 60s.
Porsche saw the writing on the wall and made a car that would meet rules that were being made (even the ones that didn't make it all the way) and ones that were just being proposed.
They knew full well that replacing the 911 would be a huge change.
That's part of what this book covers.
It helps the salesmen explain to both existing and prospective new customers why the 928 is such a great car.
If you read it carefully, they reference safety rules, noise rules, and even emissions a bit (not much). And how well the 928 will address them.
All good points. What are your thoughts about this hypothetical question? Had the emissions and safety concerns of the late 60's and 70's not manifested themselves until the 80's, would Porsche still have decided to design the 928 in the early 70's?
It's kind of strange if nobody on this huge forum have this booklet, or nobody not even seen it before?? There must surely be others left out there? Someone asked what I want for it, but I don't need to sell it, and if it's so rare, it's an even funnier piece to have.
All good points. What are your thoughts about this hypothetical question? Had the emissions and safety concerns of the late 60's and 70's not manifested themselves until the 80's, would Porsche still have decided to design the 928 in the early 70's?
That's a very good question.
My best guess would be 'no'.
VW wouldn't have had Porsche design the 924 either.
I think that what happened in the late 90s would have happened a bit sooner.
The 911 would have grown into the larger GT that it currently is and the 914 would have kept going and evolved into the Boxter.
The similarities between the Boxter and the 914 are too many to be a coincidence.
I think that, at the time the 928 was in development and the first few market years, Porsche was really struggling with US tailpipe standards and the challenges of temperature changes in the air-cooled cars. Those who owned mid- to late-70's 911 cars will fondly remember the thermal reactors in the exhausts, necessary to "reburn" the extra fuel needed for piston cooling. Cam timing was compromised and drivability suffered, and there were some interesting issues with studs pulling out of engine cases related to the big temperature deltas among the case, cylinders and heads. All were compromises and band-aids on the way to getting water cooling for combustion temperature and emissions management. Electronic engine management was the temporary savior of the air-cooled cars, but even that wasn't enough for US and specifically California emissions requirements by the mid- to late-1990's. Porsche made the jump to water cooling in the 986 (Boxster) and 996 (911 family) cars and never looked back. They had played with water-cooled heads over air-cooled cylinders on oil-cooled cases in several competition and specialty versions, especially turbo examples, so perhaps it wasn't that big a jump to water-cooling the cylinders. But these were now the road cars, not just competition versions.
The handwriting was on the wall for Porsche by the early 1970's really, when catalytic converters started being adopted as a way to do a final scrubbing of the exhaust. CIS and vacuum-driven ignition just couldn't keep catalysts happy in the air-cooled cars. The extra fuel needed was in-your-face with the increases in fuel costs of the time. "Gas-guzzler" taxes were not insignificant on cars like the 70's 911 and any 928 cars, either of which could exceed the national 55 MPH speed limit in the first couple gears. They were for people with "extra" money.
Nate brings up the Datsun/Nissan Z cars. While the styling was similar, the slice of market spectrum was decidedly different. The local Datsun dealer all but begged me to order a 240Z sight unseen, based only on pictures of the Fairlady Z sold in only Asia. For under $2500 pre-market dollars. They made no black ones for some reason, and I was already focused on my new 510 as a weekend-racer. There was no clue that the 240 six was just a stretched 1600 from the 510. Oh well... Still, that was less than 10% of the cost of a 928 seven years later, and even then in 1977/78 the roadgoing Z cars were less than half the cost of a 928. I think the Lexus S400 (?) was the closest style-wise, and maybe looking to the same market, with a V8 and 2 plus barely 2 seating.
Anyway, the 911 model decisions at the time were definitely emissions-driven. It's why we "only" got 4.5 liters initially too.
04-28-2021, 07:00 AM
