Hi All

I’m trying to find an online reference regarding whether or not the 928 was designed to replace the 911 – my recollection is that this was a common myth and I remember someone from Porsche confirming that at the UK Brooklands 40th meet up a few years ago.

But I can’t find anything online apart from the usual story, including Porsche’s own website. Can you please tell me if I’ve got the wrong end of the stick or my mind is playing tricks?
Thanks

John

 

I don't have any official sources, so take this as you will.

Porsche didn't want to replace the 911. It was their flagship, their heritage, their everything.

But you have to remember the early 70s. Pollution was getting really bad. Traffic fatalities were too.
The emissions control regulations that were coming made air-cooled motors very problematic.
Ralph Nader (Unsafe At Any Speed) had waged war on rear engine cars, particularly the Corvair. There were proposed safety regulations that would essentially ban the 911.

Porsche saw the potential end of the 911 in the US, their biggest market.

So they had to do something.
A 'clean sheet' design. A long hood GT, along the lines of the popular E-Type Jag, Corvette, Ferrari Daytona and a host of others. A car that had a variety of safety features (the Weissach axle the most prominent). Water cooled motor that was easier to pass smog rules.

It would allow them to continue selling in the US, no matter what happened to the 911.

The safety regs never came to pass. But the emissions did. VW stopped selling air cooled cars in the US.
Porsche had to pretty much strangle the air cooled motors to meet the rules, but managed. Over time, they were able to keep the emissions in check, and restore the power.
But the late 70s 911 motors were pretty anemic.

So the 911 never went away. The 928 was the 'flagship', the most luxurious and expensive car, but it never really took over.
It ran for 18 years, and 61k cars made. Not too shabby, considering the market.

Again, this is my understanding, from what I've read and what I know of the political situation with cars at the time.
It could be wrong on some issues (probably is on at least one or two), and I welcome any corrections.

Edit to add: I just re-read the OP and realized that you're in Great Britain.
All of the above applies to the US, and the rules and regs here.
You may not have known all of the political intricacies that the auto industry went through back then.

 

Thanks Joe - very useful - cheers!

 

Wikipedia refers to the 928 as originally intended to replace the 911.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_928

The Wikipedia article on the 911 includes the story about Peter Schutz deciding to extend the 911.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_911

Peter W. Schutz (CEO Porsche AG 1981–1987) wrote: The decision to keep the 911 in the product line occurred one afternoon in the office of Dr. Helmuth Bott [de], the Porsche operating board member responsible for all engineering and development. I noticed a chart on the wall of Professor Bott's office. It depicted the ongoing development schedules for the three primary Porsche product lines: 944, 928 and 911. Two of them stretched far into the future, but the 911 program stopped at the end of 1981. I remember rising from my chair, walking over to the chart, taking a black marker pen, and extending the 911 program bar clean off the chart. I am sure I heard a silent cheer from Professor Bott, and I knew I had done the right thing. The Porsche 911, the company icon, had been saved, and I believe the company was saved with it.

 

More importantly that quote comes from a book referenced in the footnotes:
Corlett, Tony (2005). Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera: The Last of the Evolution. Veloce Publishing. ISBN 978-1-904788-65-2.

So it may not be official information, but it is documented and published.

 

The dealer sales forces at the time were certainly saying this. I suspect it indirectly contributed to a bump in 911 sales as folks scrambled to get a new baby before they were gone. That same bump may have helped with the decision to continue the 911 program, along with some very strong family love for it. Consider that the 928 sold for more than the average US home when it was introduced, and significantly more than the 911 that shared the showroom floor. The 911 was in reach of a very small fraction of US drivers, and 928 pricing and availability was kept, um, exclusive. In the late 1970's, inflation made it possible to get a new 911, drive it for a year or -maybe- two, and sell it for what you had paid for it. Funny math, incredibly high financing rates, no market history for the 928. Conspiracy I tell you...

The aforementioned US safety regs did indeed come to pass. The 911 was "uplifted" with unsightly giant bumper pads, many of which were immediately removed by buyers, and cars restored to traditional ride height. The bulbous 928 poly bumper was a more attractive concession to both the new US crash and pedestrian safety regs. A telltale is that US 928 cars have a slightly higher ride height spec, in deference to where you want to clip a peds legs in the crosswalk test. The 911 suffered the same elevation treatment Engine emissions problem in the 911 was "solved" with sucky valve and ignition timing, lower compression, over-fueling, and "thermal reactors" to burn the excess HC just past the exhaust valves. Those engines really suffered, but the cars were able to be sold in the US, Porsche's largest market at the time.


It's been a while since I scrolled through the official "Projekt 928" book. My feeble memory is that there's a lot of this history included there. Copies are available in the after-market, and IIRC someone in our family here shared a scanned version at one time.

 

Those safety regs did come into play, but my recollection is that Ralph Nader and his followers wanted some rules on stability that would have required safety testing and banned cars that exhibited oversteer. That's the part that would have killed the 911, and never happened.

And yes, that's what I meant by the air cooled motors being 'strangled'. I don't really know the details, but I thought you would.

And yes, Project 928 is out there as a download.
Jim Moorehouse has it up on Amazon drive.


I have a copy already, so I didn't try to download this one. No guarantee that it works.

 

Yes Bob is correct, Projekt 928 does echo the sentiments that Joe posted above. Porsche was hedging their bets in case they were forced/unable to produce the 911 to meet potential upcoming US regulations. However, count me in the group that firmly believe the 928 was not intended to replace the 911. Porsche wanted to diversify its model lineup and produce a flagship that they thought would appeal to the American sensibility for open road GT cruising with their own V8 powered example. At the same time they knew they could take advantage of the clean slate design to capture all potential US safety and emission regulations.

A couple of years ago I reached out to the Porsche Public Relations Historical Archive to try to find out more information on the genesis of the 928. Below are the transcripts from those emails.

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Hello Ms. Pelters,

I recently sent the below email to Mr. Dieter Landenberger. I immediately received an automatic reply that said, "Thank you very much for your message. For inquiries to the Porsche AG archive, please contact Mrs. Sarah Pelters". This is why I am now emailing you. Perhaps you could help answer the question I posed to Mr. Landenberger regarding the genesis of the 928?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Nathan L.

Guten Tag Herr Landenberger,


I hope this email finds you well. My name is Nathan L and I am an avid Porsche 928 enthusiast from Seattle, Washington. For decades I admired the 928 and last year I finally purchased my first example. A 1984 928S in Zinnmettalic over black leather. Great car and amazing to drive!

I've spent a lot of time researching it's history but there is a very important aspect of the history that is unclear to me and I believe not fully understood even by those who write about it, and that is simply, why did Porsche decide to create the 928? The prevailing view, which I am not convinced is the actual reason, is that the 928 was designed to replace the 911.

I just watched the documentary "911 Reloaded" in which you participated. In one scene you state that reason the G series 911 had such a long production run was because the 928 was slated to replace it. This agrees with the famous story of Peter Schutz extending the 911 lifetime on the chart in Helmuth Bott's office along the wall and out of the door. Numerous automotive articles cite this event as evidence of the 928 being positoned by Porsche to be the successor to the 911. However this event happened in 1981. The 928, if I am not mistaken, began as a concept nearly 10 years earlier in 1972.

So this is why I am writing you. I figure as the Head of Historical Archive, you more than anyone would have access to the real reason the 928 was concieved. It is my contention that the 928 concept was not started in the early '70s in order to develop a car that would replace the 911 but rather to add diversity to the Porsche line up. I mean by that time the 911 was only 8 years old and in it's prime. I find it hard to fathom that Porsche would have been looking 10 years ahead and forseeing it's demise. I'm sure there must have been those at the company that felt the 911 could have been engineered to meet any potential safety and emissions concerns that may have been mandated by the end of the decade. And sure by the late '70s some executives at Porsche may have felt that the 928 could replace the 911 but that is very different than saying "the 928 was designed to replace the 911".

So that leaves me with my original question; why did Porsche design the 928? Was it really to replace the 911 or was it for other reasons? Any information that you could provide me would be extremely appreciated. These cars have for a long time been under appreciated and misunderstood. I have great appreciation for them and want to develop and equally great understanding.

Best regards,

Nathan

************************************************************************ ************

Jung, Frank (GOM1) <frank.jung@porsche.de>

to me

Jan 15, 2018, 8:47 AM
Dear Nathan,

thank very much for your email and your interest in the 928 Story.
Finally your inquiry ended up on my desk as I`m Dieter Landenbergers Successor here at the Porsche historical Achieves.
Dieter moved to Volkswagen, but we´re still in close contact.

We´ll check historical docs and send you our thoughts regarding the 928 topic.
We do have a scientific Assistant working on his thesis – looking closely at decisions of the members of the board in the 70ies.I´m sure he´ll find some of the answers to your questions.

We´ll keep you updated as soon as we found out anything (new).

With kind regards,

Frank Jung

Dr. Ing. h. c. F. Porsche AG
Public Relations
Manager Historical Archive
Porscheplatz 1
D - 70435 Stuttgart
Phone: +49 (0) 711 911 25985
E-Mail: frank.jung@porsche.de

Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche Aktiengesellschaft
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Stuttgart
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRB-Nr. 730623
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Dr. Wolfgang Porsche
Vorstand: Oliver Blume, Vorsitzender
Lutz Meschke, stv. Vorsitzender
Andreas Haffner, Detlev von Platen, Albrecht Reimold, Uwe-Karsten Städter, Michael Steiner

************************************************************************ *************************
to Frank

Jan 15, 2018, 8:58 AM

Frank,

Thank you so much for the reply and congratulations on your new position at the archives.

I am very curious to hear back from you and your assistant about the history of what the 928's role in the Porsche lineup was initially intended to be. Especially in relationship to the 911. Very exciting.

Best regards,

Nathan L

************************************************************************ ******************
to Frank

Jun 5, 2018, 9:31 AM

Guten Tag Frank,

I hope this email finds you well. I am writing as a follow up on my inquiry on the genesis of the 928 and was wondering if you were able to find any information in the archives about the decisions of why Porsche decided to create it?

Best regards,

Nathan L

************************************************************************ *************

Benken, Alexander von den (GOM1) <alexander_von_den.benken@porsche.de>

to me, Frank

Jun 6, 2018, 12:45 AM

Hello Nathan,we are sorry for the delay.

In 1977 the 928 was presented. Initially the 928 was purposed to be the successor of the 911 that was built since 1964. Right in the beginning of Fuhrmanns presidency he was faced with a global oil-crisis and exacerbating environmental policy – especially in the US.

Fuhrmann favoured the front-engine concept, because environmental policy (e.g. EPA) targeted mostly front-engine concepts (e.g. crash-structure, noise and exhaust-pollution). Additionally he thought – as an engineer – the 911 was coming to an end. He thought that the engineers had to invest so much more time and energy to catch up with new generation sports cars that would cost half the price.

In the presidency of Peter W. Schutz the 928 was not seen as a successor any more - instead Schutz needed the 928 as the top-end-product of his diversified full-product-line to appeal even high-class business clients. Schutz knew that the 911 was a cash-cow and the core-identity of the company, so he decided to reinvest in the development of the 911.

I hope I could help you!

Kind regards,

Alexander von den Benken

Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

Communications

Porsche Museum and Historical Communication
Porscheplatz 1
70435 Stuttgart

Telefon: +49 (0)711 911 22634
Fax: +49 (0)711 911 26133
E-Mail: alexander_von_den.benken@porsche.de


Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche Aktiengesellschaft
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Stuttgart
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRB-Nr. 730623
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Dr. Wolfgang Porsche
Vorstand: Oliver Blume, Vorsitzender
Lutz Meschke, stv. Vorsitzender
Andreas Haffner, Detlev von Platen, Albrecht Reimold, Uwe-Karsten Städter, Michael Steiner

************************************************************************ ***

to[size=13px] [/size][size=13px]Alexander[/size]

Jun 23, 2018, 12:21 PM

Hello Alexander!

Thank you very much for the reply and no worries for the delay. Your response does concur with the popular narrative that the 928 was intended to succeed the 911. This does however beg the following questions if I may ask.

Why did Porsche executives at the time feel that replacing the 911, a light weight sports car, with the 928, a heavier GT car, was the correct business decision? I am sure they couldn't have thought that their loyal base of 911 customers would be happy with switching over to such a different platform? Was there at least some discussion of developing a front engined light weight sports car the was upmarket like the 911? Obviously the 924 was introduced in the late '70s, but that was an attempt to make an entry level Porsche, not a 911 substitute, correct?

So the crux of my follow-up question is why did they choose to try to succeed the 911 with a such a different type of car, a GT car, and not another sports car for which they already had a large customer base to draw from?

Best regards,

Nathan

************************************************************************ *******************

Benken, Alexander von den (GOM1) <alexander_von_den.benken@porsche.de>

to me

Jun 28, 2018, 2:12 AM

Hello Nathan, in this decade large Gran Turismo cars were en vogue. Beside that producing costs were much lower. I am sorry that I cannot give you any further information, as we are not deep into research for that topic.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Alexander von den Benken

Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

Öffentlichkeitsarbeit und Presse
Porsche Museum und historische Öffentlichkeitsarbeit

Historisches Archiv
Porscheplatz 1
70435 Stuttgart

Telefon: +49 (0)711 911 22634
Fax: +49 (0)711 911 26133
E-Mail: alexander_von_den.benken@porsche.de


Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche Aktiengesellschaft
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Stuttgart
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRB-Nr. 730623
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Dr. Wolfgang Porsche
Vorstand: Oliver Blume, Vorsitzender
Lutz Meschke, stv. Vorsitzender
Andreas Haffner, Detlev von Platen, Albrecht Reimold, Uwe-Karsten Städter, Michael Steiner

************************************************************************ **************

 

Hmm... I'm curious how the euro ride height is different from the US cars. Can you just lower a US car to that level without issue, or is there some difference in the suspension that allows for it?

 

There are very few US cars that are higher than the Euro-spec ride heights. Most have lowered thmselves (read: sagged) to much lower already.