IB and the 928 Technical Forum - Statement required please?
08-20-2020, 03:52 PM
#61
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Start your own, be your own boss. It's just forum software.
I agree with Roger there should be a separation for the befit of the community, this is a huge loss. But if IB isn't tooled up for it we do have our choices on how 'we' as individuals want to A) participate in IB products, and B) how we can encourage others to participate in IB products for the benefit of the community.
There are ample places to have emotional debates on the internet about anything (such as can openers that open from the top via the side?)...that do not have collateral cost here.
I agree with Roger there should be a separation for the befit of the community, this is a huge loss. But if IB isn't tooled up for it we do have our choices on how 'we' as individuals want to A) participate in IB products, and B) how we can encourage others to participate in IB products for the benefit of the community.
There are ample places to have emotional debates on the internet about anything (such as can openers that open from the top via the side?)...that do not have collateral cost here.
08-20-2020, 04:05 PM
#62
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I was advised to come back and look at this thread. My responses below include quotes from both this thread and the one I created last week.
Let us know if you see any. The lack of the ***** to explain their actions is at the top of my list.
There is none and that is why I have voted with my browser.
Rog, I realize this is not your quote:
Let me try to clear somethings up regardless of whether it was anyone's intention to include me in "two of the best:"
1) *I* did not get banned.
2) Sean got banned.
3) He and 3-5 other were trying to get banned (I think I know him well-enough that I know he will not object to me characterizing his actions thusly).
4) I don't know what their personal motivation was. Not my circus not my monkeys(*).
5) Several other bannings have occurred, apparently, *accidentally.*
(*) In the process of dealing with the shenanigans of 5-ish people, IB and the remaining mods demonstrated to what lows they would go to one-up childish behavior. I have neither the time nor inclination to describe that further except to point out that you all should be pretty familiar with how I turn a phrase. If you do run across a post of mine that seems as if I've lost my voice, be suspicious.
If you are curious for the full story you know where to find the answers.
Furthermore...
I invite anyone with time to waste to find my posts on P&C. I am pretty da** certain that no one will find many posts (maybe not even one) of mine that any, even insane, individual would find political nor would any of my posts provide you with more than a cursory understanding of my 'politics.' I rarely posted to P&C. But I did read it.
I very much doubt that my posts on OT/P&C were on anyone's radar.
However, my edit privileges were revoked as of whatever day I posted the "Chose" thread. What I specifically mean is ALL edit privileges were revoked including not being able to go back an korrect spelin or gammah mistakes seconds after submitting the original post.
This occurred to many folks on 'the other board' that used the same or similar handles there as they do here.
This occurred without notice or explanation.
A mod did send me a PM, *after* I posted that thread, and told me that I was wrong and that my privileges hadn't changed. I am not unobservant. This mod was, at the time, misinformed or unable to determine, due to board permissions, the lack of truth in his statement to me.
It has been posted that some banning and/or privilege changes were done accidentally. Let's shave that with Occam's Razor:
What's more work?
1) To ban or revoke privileges from 5 - 10 folks making a VERY PUBLIC nuisance of themselves? Or
2) To go to another site, compile a list of all those with handles similar to folks on Rennlist and then revoke their privileges on Rennlist?
You all decide.
Summary: I did *nothing* except a) join the other forum and b) make a post in P&C that I was done and going to the other forum.
I was perfectly content (if not happy) to do OT/P&C on the other forum and to continue on the tech forums here. Until my privileges were circumscribed without notice or explanation. With the exception of one Mod reaching out (as above) to tell me something that I knew emphatically was not true, I have received no communication whatsoever from IB or any Mod by any means.
Days after my edit privileges were revoked, receiving no transparency, I nulled out my signature.
This last incident with my edit privileges is the third in as many months where I've been 'touched' by IB without warning or explanation.
IB's behavior is capricious.
IB is a subsidiary of KKR.
The first incident where IB touched my account had to do with "uploaded too many questionable pictures." I'm sure you can think of many meanings for that. I assure you that the only thing I did in the days preceding that pronouncement was to post a dozen or so pictures of head gaskets that I'd taken with my own camera to Fred's gasket thread. There was probably a Cat Meme picture too. Surely those are worth revoking my picture upload privileges?
I was never given an explanation of what "questionable pictures" meant or a response to my direct question of "to what specific pictures do you refer?" My picture upload privileges were revoked and the restored several days later with no more explanation that what I've provided above.
What rules did I break? Where are the rules? (I challenge anyone here to see how easy it is to find the *detailed* rules about what you can and cannot post. After you do, ponder the uniformity of their enforcement.)
Capricious behavior on behalf of those with 'power' over you is a sign you need to change your circumstances. You won't even get an "Opps. Sorry for your eye there. Well you have another right? So it's all good." from IB. I have little patience for capricious behavior of any type and choose not to tolerate further.
SO... do not assume that IB won't come for you if you don't post in OT or P&C. If they do you will receive no transparency. You won't know what you did. You won't know how to not do it again. *That*, folks, by the way, is a specific tactic in brainwashing and breaking a population's will: random punishment without explanation.
Correct. In the fallout of Bloody Tuesday *many* folks posted for the first time in P&C saying something along the lines of "I've never posted, but I lurked, and learned a lot of stuff and it sucks that IB is screwing with it."
That's half bull$hi+. Certainly some fraction of the posts were like that but many were not. OT was often fun (The Random Picture Thread) or informative. Not every day. But enough so that you'd at least scan the most recent threads. P&C was pretty ... rough. And the S/N was about 10%. But, there was valuable info in P&C too. This was *especially* true when Bigs posted on P&C or OT.
Oh... he did. He really did and he'll be the first to admit it. But, they could have banned him from OT. It is *well within* mod capabilities to do that. They didn't need to carpet bomb the other folks too.
Nope. All Rennlist moderators were *volunteers*. There was ONE IB employee who "managed them" but had - AFAIK - much more to do in normal times that just focus on Rennlist's moderators or be a moderator himself.
I have no reason to doubt that out-of-the-box what you write is correct. However I also have NO (Z E R O) reason to doubt that the capability *was* added *years* ago in response to a particular incident. Because I was there. You might even be able to find the thread on this - the 928 forum - board if it hasn't been deleted.
There is none and that is why I have voted with my browser.
Rog, I realize this is not your quote:
1) *I* did not get banned.
2) Sean got banned.
3) He and 3-5 other were trying to get banned (I think I know him well-enough that I know he will not object to me characterizing his actions thusly).
4) I don't know what their personal motivation was. Not my circus not my monkeys(*).
5) Several other bannings have occurred, apparently, *accidentally.*
(*) In the process of dealing with the shenanigans of 5-ish people, IB and the remaining mods demonstrated to what lows they would go to one-up childish behavior. I have neither the time nor inclination to describe that further except to point out that you all should be pretty familiar with how I turn a phrase. If you do run across a post of mine that seems as if I've lost my voice, be suspicious.
If you are curious for the full story you know where to find the answers.
Furthermore...
I invite anyone with time to waste to find my posts on P&C. I am pretty da** certain that no one will find many posts (maybe not even one) of mine that any, even insane, individual would find political nor would any of my posts provide you with more than a cursory understanding of my 'politics.' I rarely posted to P&C. But I did read it.
I very much doubt that my posts on OT/P&C were on anyone's radar.
However, my edit privileges were revoked as of whatever day I posted the "Chose" thread. What I specifically mean is ALL edit privileges were revoked including not being able to go back an korrect spelin or gammah mistakes seconds after submitting the original post.
This occurred to many folks on 'the other board' that used the same or similar handles there as they do here.
This occurred without notice or explanation.
A mod did send me a PM, *after* I posted that thread, and told me that I was wrong and that my privileges hadn't changed. I am not unobservant. This mod was, at the time, misinformed or unable to determine, due to board permissions, the lack of truth in his statement to me.
It has been posted that some banning and/or privilege changes were done accidentally. Let's shave that with Occam's Razor:
What's more work?
1) To ban or revoke privileges from 5 - 10 folks making a VERY PUBLIC nuisance of themselves? Or
2) To go to another site, compile a list of all those with handles similar to folks on Rennlist and then revoke their privileges on Rennlist?
You all decide.
Summary: I did *nothing* except a) join the other forum and b) make a post in P&C that I was done and going to the other forum.
I was perfectly content (if not happy) to do OT/P&C on the other forum and to continue on the tech forums here. Until my privileges were circumscribed without notice or explanation. With the exception of one Mod reaching out (as above) to tell me something that I knew emphatically was not true, I have received no communication whatsoever from IB or any Mod by any means.
Days after my edit privileges were revoked, receiving no transparency, I nulled out my signature.
This last incident with my edit privileges is the third in as many months where I've been 'touched' by IB without warning or explanation.
IB's behavior is capricious.
IB is a subsidiary of KKR.
I'm a newbie but specifically came to RL to gain knowledge about my recently purchased 928. I need everyone's expertise .I frequent several other forums for Boxster & Cayman content and don't have the time or desire to go to any of the OT sections, so I have no idea what was said or done to get members banned. If other people's opinions are going to trigger knee jerk reactions,
I was never given an explanation of what "questionable pictures" meant or a response to my direct question of "to what specific pictures do you refer?" My picture upload privileges were revoked and the restored several days later with no more explanation that what I've provided above.
What rules did I break? Where are the rules? (I challenge anyone here to see how easy it is to find the *detailed* rules about what you can and cannot post. After you do, ponder the uniformity of their enforcement.)
Capricious behavior on behalf of those with 'power' over you is a sign you need to change your circumstances. You won't even get an "Opps. Sorry for your eye there. Well you have another right? So it's all good." from IB. I have little patience for capricious behavior of any type and choose not to tolerate further.
SO... do not assume that IB won't come for you if you don't post in OT or P&C. If they do you will receive no transparency. You won't know what you did. You won't know how to not do it again. *That*, folks, by the way, is a specific tactic in brainwashing and breaking a population's will: random punishment without explanation.
I didn't get it either and asked that same question recently. The answer I got back kind of made sense in that people who appreciate Porsches also appreciate and are interested in other similar high-quality things, like watches, wine, etc and if you have some commonality in one area with people, it's possible there are other areas too.
Oh... he did. He really did and he'll be the first to admit it. But, they could have banned him from OT. It is *well within* mod capabilities to do that. They didn't need to carpet bomb the other folks too.
Chances are that the individual moderators are a group that manages several of IB's forums in a patrolling like fashion to enforce the rules of the week. And do not actually know any of the members and know who makes valuable contributions (apart from some trouble item they find) on any particular forum. There are a lot of forums that IB has.
08-20-2020, 04:16 PM
#63
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Last thing:
I stopped being really detailed in technical responses quite sometime ago in direct response to the inability to edit old posts. Humans make mistakes. I'm human. My posts contain mistakes and the longer they are the more mistakes might be in them. So, if I discover an error in a 5-year-old lengthy post and can't correct it what's the point of drafting long posts except regret later?
A cynical person might assume that since IB's business model is all about clicks and that, for that purpose, clicks on new posts are just as valuable as old posts. Why bother to go any effort to preserve or enhance old posts? Or to make them searchable.
Epilogue: The users as product/resource business model, instead of users are customers, has given us the internet we have today: InstaFaceGram and all the wonderful results deriving therefrom. (Seth, your meter should be pegged.)
Would you rather be treated as a resource or a customer?
I stopped being really detailed in technical responses quite sometime ago in direct response to the inability to edit old posts. Humans make mistakes. I'm human. My posts contain mistakes and the longer they are the more mistakes might be in them. So, if I discover an error in a 5-year-old lengthy post and can't correct it what's the point of drafting long posts except regret later?
A cynical person might assume that since IB's business model is all about clicks and that, for that purpose, clicks on new posts are just as valuable as old posts. Why bother to go any effort to preserve or enhance old posts? Or to make them searchable.
Epilogue: The users as product/resource business model, instead of users are customers, has given us the internet we have today: InstaFaceGram and all the wonderful results deriving therefrom. (Seth, your meter should be pegged.)
Would you rather be treated as a resource or a customer?
08-20-2020, 04:24 PM
#64
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I support Roger in this effort unequivocally.
The OB topics are the Wild, Wild West of Rennlist and as such should be able to function separately from the technical sections.
Furthermore, if someone is posting in the political sections, they should be allowed to voice their opinions regardless of what side they are on. (I have been censored for posting on both sides of the political spectrum). This is not limited to woke vs non-woke, or republican vs democrat...
IB - Please reach out the those you have banned and bring them back with full apologies and perhaps 10 years of gratis membership.
Otherwise, there is a strong possibility of a mass exodus...
Sterlings gone, Sean's gone, Worfs gone, who's next?
The OB topics are the Wild, Wild West of Rennlist and as such should be able to function separately from the technical sections.
Furthermore, if someone is posting in the political sections, they should be allowed to voice their opinions regardless of what side they are on. (I have been censored for posting on both sides of the political spectrum). This is not limited to woke vs non-woke, or republican vs democrat...
IB - Please reach out the those you have banned and bring them back with full apologies and perhaps 10 years of gratis membership.
Otherwise, there is a strong possibility of a mass exodus...
Sterlings gone, Sean's gone, Worfs gone, who's next?
wow...i guess i have missed out on a lot lately. I have no clue what has transpired...but to see those names gone is not good, then Bigs in OT. He is full of great sage advice in many aspects of life.
bottom line is, im with Roger on this. And as much as RL is a valued trove of information and comradery it can and probably is in the process of being replaced.
IB dont bite the hands that feed you.
08-20-2020, 04:37 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
I'm with Roger. Sean and I agree to disagree on political issues, which doesn't matter a whit when we discuss 928's and how to keep them healthy. I am sure he went out of his way to get banned from P + C or OT but he shouldn't be banned from here.
08-20-2020, 04:49 PM
#66
They ban people from Rennlist but allow the Corvette forum to be just as crass (or more so), which is also owned by IB.
Can't quite reconcile that one.
Did some checking of IB's other sites and I THINK this is the only one that charges for a membership to access "private" parts of the forum. Corvette charges nothing to access their OT threads and it gets much more raunchy than OT/PC ever did. And I've been here a LONG time.
I'm with Rog.
Can't quite reconcile that one.
Did some checking of IB's other sites and I THINK this is the only one that charges for a membership to access "private" parts of the forum. Corvette charges nothing to access their OT threads and it gets much more raunchy than OT/PC ever did. And I've been here a LONG time.
I'm with Rog.
08-20-2020, 04:58 PM
#67
08-20-2020, 05:23 PM
#69
Instructor
I stand with Roger.
As owner and Administrator of the Landshark List since 1999, we've run this forum on Yahoo Groups for nearly the entire time. Recently however they decided to no longer support groups and began systematically removing data we've had stored with them. We had plenty of notice and have exported it back to our own hard drives.
We now run the forum on groups.io (look us up)
Over the years we've had our own controversies, someone mention "Oil"? And we've also lost some excellent brains trusts due to disagreements and arguments where, and perhaps, my 'moderation' could have been better.
We continue to survive. Our core of experts remains small. They are cherished and are a valuable resource to the Forum. Without them it's just a bunch of blokes talking BS.
Once again, I support Roger and all who give willingly of their time and knowledge for the betterment of their fellow man (and woman).
Leonard Zech
As owner and Administrator of the Landshark List since 1999, we've run this forum on Yahoo Groups for nearly the entire time. Recently however they decided to no longer support groups and began systematically removing data we've had stored with them. We had plenty of notice and have exported it back to our own hard drives.
We now run the forum on groups.io (look us up)
Over the years we've had our own controversies, someone mention "Oil"? And we've also lost some excellent brains trusts due to disagreements and arguments where, and perhaps, my 'moderation' could have been better.
We continue to survive. Our core of experts remains small. They are cherished and are a valuable resource to the Forum. Without them it's just a bunch of blokes talking BS.
Once again, I support Roger and all who give willingly of their time and knowledge for the betterment of their fellow man (and woman).
Leonard Zech
08-20-2020, 05:54 PM
#70
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Apologies to Sean should he venture here: He was not trying to get banned. I had him confused with a couple of others that were doing suicide by Mod.
So.. again Sean wasn’t trying to get banned. He was collateral damage.
So.. again Sean wasn’t trying to get banned. He was collateral damage.
08-20-2020, 05:55 PM
#71
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I love the ability to get help and information on Rennlist, But the idiots and politics is a bunch of BS, that's why I left rennlist for a while.
If Sean was in the "OT" area he SHOULDN'T be penalized for that on the other forums.
On the other side of the coin.... Now he can focus on his work and 928 DOC's
In conclusion,,, I stand with Roger and my 928 brothers. What's the deal IB???
If Sean was in the "OT" area he SHOULDN'T be penalized for that on the other forums.
On the other side of the coin.... Now he can focus on his work and 928 DOC's
In conclusion,,, I stand with Roger and my 928 brothers. What's the deal IB???
Last edited by victor25; 08-20-2020 at 05:57 PM.
08-20-2020, 06:04 PM
#72
How would anyone who got banned for breaking the rules on a particular forum want to keep providing free content on any other?
This would be humiliating.
That being said, the 928 forum remains the best source of technical information for anything 928-related. I keep coming to it even if I don't own a 928 and I bet that owning a 928 without it would be a huge source of headaches, and it would not be interesting without some long term members who keep it alive.
This would be humiliating.
That being said, the 928 forum remains the best source of technical information for anything 928-related. I keep coming to it even if I don't own a 928 and I bet that owning a 928 without it would be a huge source of headaches, and it would not be interesting without some long term members who keep it alive.
Last edited by Thom; 08-20-2020 at 06:13 PM.
08-20-2020, 06:19 PM
#73
The list of auto forums they own grows pretty much monthly. For any random forum you would go to today there is the risk that the owner is being presented with an offer they find too hard to resist tomorrow.
The only alternative is to set up a forum with formal governance that establishes a non-sale via voting and veto rights among a governing body. But then you might run into expense problems. It isn't trivial to make advertising revenue.
