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Doc, being from TX, you should know who Lama Hunt is, he tried to corner silver and although he didn't succeed, he made a lot of money, chiefly b/c he was in control for some period. I have to agree with Bauer. There are two sides to the equation in the market and if sellers are disciplined they can exert more control than buyers; depends a lot on money supply, if money is tight, then not so much, then luxury items will suffer. I also think the dynamic of "not any more being made" theorem works here. If there are more buyers being minted than 928s, we win. OTH if someone needs cash and has a GT3 sitting around, he/she may be forced to sell.
Wrong guy. Bunker Hunt. He did try to corner the silver market.(Lamar Hunt was a football dude, and some other sports) Bunker failed, because the market responded to the increased artificial pressure of him and his brother. The market went bust, do to being oversubscribed. It has been exceptionally efficient since Hunt did his thing. He tried to force a market to go where it wasn't able to support.
Guys - I may be the only one here who makes money at this hobby. I just bought a 996 for $16k, put about $1200 in it and sold it for a nice profit(plus delivery fee!). I have a $1400 928 sitting in the garage that will sell for > $9000 later this year. I've done rather well, and I'll put my investment plan up against anyone here. Seller have very little control over the 928 market. In general, efficient markets do not respond to price pressure unless there is an outside/foreign pressure working against buyers. This also happened to the Jag XKE a few years ago. There was a swift inflation, a ton of cars that were in the weeds came out for sale, and the pressure eased back to a nominal climb. The 928 is a sleeper. It's breakout hasn't come yet, but it might. When the breakout comes, I'll be ready, but still - we're not going to see sellers in control, no more than Ferrari, or any other market. BTW, I buy and sell houses and property for a living.
Well, as my budget has gone down significantly; I'm finding that freedom of owning a driver 928 is way more rewarding than any prior garage queens. At one point I thought about getting back into a GT; but I am priced out of that market. Values have gone up for the unique models in ANY condition it seems. Shopping for the GT; I'm like oh, that price point is heading right into turbo territory..... so maybe there is a ceiling on value? I mean, (and don't hurt me here): For GTS money, you can get a 996TT pretty close to concours with a really nice S4 on the side menu. Of course, I always fantasize that the folks buying the GTS also have other exotics in the stable already and just "Want" one. Personally, I'm glad that the 928 is still there for the taking. The Porsche for adults. The Porsche for kids at heart. The Porsche for Generations. The 928; my own 80's fantasy. Ok, I'm rambling. Thank God S4's are still reasonable. I'm back baby!
I believe his name was Nelson. He and his brothers William and Lamar get equal credit.
"Nelson Bunker Hunt (February 22, 1926 – October 21, 2014) was an Americanoil company executive. He was a billionaire whose fortune collapsed after he and his brothers William Herbert and Lamar Hunt [1] tried to corner the world market in silver but was prevented by government intervention." Wikipedia.
Point is Bauer is suggesting a similar "attitude" on the part of sellers, which could be monopolistic and a bit like herding cats, b/c of the various forces at work
. https://www.happiest.net/2017/06/20/...ve-never-seen/
but like the commercial above doable in theory in a rising market.
Last edited by SteveG; 08-10-2018 at 12:35 PM.
Reason: better
Shopping for the GT; I'm like oh, that price point is heading right into turbo territory..... so maybe there is a ceiling on value? I mean, (and don't hurt me here): For GTS money, you can get a 996TT pretty close to concours with a really nice S4 on the side menu.
Ok, I'm rambling. Thank God S4's are still reasonable. I'm back baby!
This is another aspect of the problem with 928 owners market. As soon as we get somewhere on the price climb, buyers(who are in control) will start looking at other models, and other marques. Once we get into the mid to high $30k region, some people will step back and say; 'hmmmm, for a few bucks more I can have a red prancing horse in my garage'. Not the V12 variety of course, but still, who would choose a top tier 928 when they could get a driver quality Mondial or GT4 of the Ferrari stable? If we start to mosey into the $50k range for the GTs or GTS, that puts us on the lower scale of some Lamborghinis(Espada, Urraco, etc), and other Euro goodies. People on here see the 928, and the 928 only. Very few of the great unwashed are out that saying 'I will only get a 928, nothing else will do'. Competition is a be-otch, but good for us - lovers of the 928 flavor.
Both sides have some valid points. The craigslist garbage ( and yes, I own two craigslist 928s) needs to go and will go as the good ones get love and the bad ones get parted. Starting to happen already. They skew the market and give the false impression that these 928s are "cheaper" Porsches.
The 912 market was buoyed by the 911 market but prices rose because the market was limited and started in the right direction by a couple high water sales. In other words, sale prices increased and the rest of the market tried their luck and raised prices. We are starting to see those high water marks.
Agree with docmirror. I think the premium buyer pool for 928s is flat and will diminish over time. Younger collectors want euro rally cars and / or the stand out model from a marque. The 911 will always be desirable, across ages and is the model for a Porsche in a collection. It is rightly or wrongly the perceived top model of the brand.
I like 928s but I’m an anomaly in the under-40 classic car buyer set.
Its mainly perceived as on old person’s car. Or the v8 for the thoughtful guy who’s buddies have American GTs.
If you like them for driving reward then keep it. If you think you are sat on a stock that’ll pop and don’t drive for pleasure then get rid by end of next year. The market is shrinking. Literally... there is buyer attrition. Through death.
Agree with docmirror. I think the premium buyer pool for 928s is flat and will diminish over time. Younger collectors want euro rally cars and / or the stand out model from a marque. The 911 will always be desirable, across ages and is the model for a Porsche in a collection. It is rightly or wrongly the perceived top model of the brand.
I like 928s but I’m an anomaly in the under-40 classic car buyer set.
Its mainly perceived as on old person’s car. Or the v8 for the thoughtful guy who’s buddies have American GTs.
If you like them for driving reward then keep it. If you think you are sat on a stock that’ll pop and don’t drive for pleasure then get rid by end of next year. The market is shrinking. Literally... there is buyer attrition. Through death.
I am 45 yrs old. Growing up in the 80s, the 928 was THE cool Porsche. The 944 was second and the 911 was an oddity. My generation is just coming into the position and disposable income to start considering going from a poster as a child to putting a 928 in the garage.
What you say holds true for the cars of the 30s 40s and 50s
. Those buyers are dying off but I don't think we are anywhere near that point with the 928 buyer.
I am 45 yrs old. Growing up in the 80s, the 928 was THE cool Porsche. The 944 was second and the 911 was an oddity. My generation is just coming into the position and disposable income to start considering going from a poster as a child to putting a 928 in the garage.
What you say holds true for the cars of the 30s 40s and 50s
. Those buyers are dying off but I don't think we are anywhere near that point with the 928 buyer.
In 5 years I’d be shocked if 928s have risen based on any other factor other than overall Porsche inflation or just due to the rate of currency inflation.
I like the design and appreciate the model. But got increasingly bored by driving mine.
If I lived in California then maybe it would be different - with the long sweeping open roads and fair weather.
The ‘82 928 in my garage hasn’t been touched this NY summer. The 911 cabrios, Lancia Integrales and classic minis are always driven regularly. I’m a collector that likes to drive his cars. 928 bottom of my pile. Still like to look at it though.
I’ve been driving a 928 for 22 years and still get a big grin when I take it out. Just clocked 200 miles up and back to Owls Head Transportation Museum last weekend for their Wings And Wheels Show. All kinds of cars showed up, lots of interest in the GT. I’m in it for the enjoyment of driving and owning it and gtgs with other 928/car guys. It will be my kids problem what to do with it when I’m gone!
Agree with docmirror. I think the premium buyer pool for 928s is flat and will diminish over time. Younger collectors want euro rally cars and / or the stand out model from a marque. The 911 will always be desirable, across ages and is the model for a Porsche in a collection. It is rightly or wrongly the perceived top model of the brand.
I like 928s but I’m an anomaly in the under-40 classic car buyer set.
Its mainly perceived as on old person’s car. Or the v8 for the thoughtful guy who’s buddies have American GTs.
If you like them for driving reward then keep it. If you think you are sat on a stock that’ll pop and don’t drive for pleasure then get rid by end of next year. The market is shrinking. Literally... there is buyer attrition. Through death.
Originally Posted by newcollector
In 5 years I’d be shocked if 928s have risen based on any other factor other than overall Porsche inflation or just due to the rate of currency inflation.
I like the design and appreciate the model. But got increasingly bored by driving mine.
If I lived in California then maybe it would be different - with the long sweeping open roads and fair weather.
The ‘82 928 in my garage hasn’t been touched this NY summer. The 911 cabrios, Lancia Integrales and classic minis are always driven regularly. I’m a collector that likes to drive his cars. 928 bottom of my pile. Still like to look at it though.
Man I guess you and I run around in very different car crowds. My car buds range from mid twenties to mid 40's. None of us perceive the 928 as an old person's car. I agree with Guy, anything from the 30's through 50's maybe. We all like various 60's, 70's and 80's stuff and don't perceive them other than cool/classic.
As for the 928 premium buyer pool being flat, well that is just not true. A simple review of the sales on BaT over the past two years show a appreciative trend for top end examples. GT's and GTS's are hard to gauge because they come up so infrequently. But in 2015 when I started my 928 search in earnest I wanted a GTS. I went as far as having a PPI done on a couple. The price range for the ones I was looking at were in the mid $50Ks. All were under 100K miles. It's virtually impossible to find one advertised for less than $65K only 3 years later.
As for the 911 always being desirable, I agree, but it is also very far from a special car anymore, in that you see them everywhere. Don't get me wrong, I think they are cool, but I never desired one because I wanted something more unique. And being an engineer, the complexity and engineering that went into the 928 drew me to it.
Fun to drive? Well I guess that depends what you are into. Clearly you like cars with light steering feel and snappy acceleration. I do too. But I also love going on long road trips and have a blast unwinding the 928 on long stretches of highway. I have yet to drive a car that does everything as good as any other car on the road. But that's why I think we all strive to have our own little collections. Variety, the spice of life,eh!
I am 45 yrs old. Growing up in the 80s, the 928 was THE cool Porsche. The 944 was second and the 911 was an oddity. My generation is just coming into the position and disposable income to start considering going from a poster as a child to putting a 928 in the garage.
What you say holds true for the cars of the 30s 40s and 50s
. Those buyers are dying off but I don't think we are anywhere near that point with the 928 buyer.
I would say a good 75% of my customers are in this same age bracket with the exact same mindset.
So what are you waiting for? Sounds like it's time to let it go.
Originally Posted by newcollector
In 5 years I’d be shocked if 928s have risen based on any other factor other than overall Porsche inflation or just due to the rate of currency inflation.
I like the design and appreciate the model. But got increasingly bored by driving mine.
If I lived in California then maybe it would be different - with the long sweeping open roads and fair weather.
The ‘82 928 in my garage hasn’t been touched this NY summer. The 911 cabrios, Lancia Integrales and classic minis are always driven regularly. I’m a collector that likes to drive his cars. 928 bottom of my pile. Still like to look at it though.
My take is that the number of 928s will continue to decrease until the value of the car justifies maintenance. As the scarcity goes down, the few people that actually want a 928 will need to pay more to enter the club.
And the market for top cars is in fact slim now, and it seems to me that for the top cars, prices have come up enough that people are starting to perceive a value in actually repairing somewhat neglected cars. This is a fortuitous cycle for the remaining 928s.
Then the question starts to become, how many people really want a 928 now? I think that more people want 911s and Ferraris. That's a fact. However, there are a lot fewer 928s than 911s. So we will see. I expect that values will continue to go up with other collectibles for now.
One caveat to this whole comparison with 911s from the same period though is that the 928 is a vastly more modern car. This also carries over to parts of the finishing, electronics, rubber components, etc. Old classics (like I consider 911s from the 80s still to be) are much easier to maintain in this sense. On the other extreme, current (i.e. brand new cars from the last decade) are completely unsuitable to ever become collectors items. Being somewhere in between, I still believe the 928 can be a collectible, but the maintenance topic needs attention and understanding by future collectors and will have to be done by real specialists like Mrmerlin, worf928, SeanR, etc.
I've been in the Porsche world for more than 20 years. I've experienced and worked on nearly everything that's available. I can say with full confidence that early 911's are not good cars and not even good cars compared to 928's.
No 964 should not be commanding more money than any 928 of the same year, condition and spec.
Sorry I have to comment. This is the most ridiculous comment I have heard on the forums in a long time. I have been around these cars for 40 years. I have owned many and listed a few. The quality of the 964 is one of the best made 911's going. The 928 was a more complicated car to build but quality is on par with both. The 993 had significant upgrades the 964 should have received but is lacking in other ways. The market is about supply and demand. The demand is high and the supply low. The 964 is one of the lowest production US spec Porsche's made period and it is a fantastic ride. Compared to a base 996 it is fun engaging and equally as capable when setup properly. I truly enjoy my 928GTS it is a fantastic ride and nothing against them but you would have to pry my turbo from my dead hands. It is the most thrilling and engaging pre 1998 Porsche made. I might sell my 928 one day and possibly my 964 C2 but it would be hard to part with either they are both incredible rides especially for the day. The only 996's worth buying are the turbos, GT3's and the GT2. If I had to own one it would be the GT2 a superior car over both the turbo and GT3. I might consider a GT2 trade for my C2 or 928 but never for my turbo and it would probably be a mistake.
Originally Posted by BauerR
I'm definitely not claiming it's the 928's time. I'm merely stating that we, as owners, have some control of the market. Especially if we can eliminate those who give their cars away.
IMO it is the 928's time. Undervalued for far too long and a unique driving experience. Possibly the best GT car made on par with (IMO better) 550 on up Ferrari's. People are finally realizing what a classic car they are and how wonderful when maintained properly. We are seeing a rise in the market all the time and the right cars are fetching huge money.
On a side note although there are a lot of 911's made over the years they vary considerably unlike the 928's which are somewhat similar.
So when considering a 3.6 964 C2/C4 tip or manual NB coupe you have only 5100+ imported for its entire 5 years of production with very few remaining today. If you look back at the 3.2's they are a very different animal and some 85% different than a 964 the 993 is unique to itself but was the begining of the mechanized days and no longer hand assembled like the earlier cars. The SC's and 3.2's are in abundance since they ran for a long time and produced in higher numbers. So each is a market in itself. Although similar things can be said about the 928 S4 vs GT the average person doesn't see the differences.
PS: Of the 928's I owned they were either complete nightmares from poor ownership or superb reliable examples when maintained properly.
08-10-2018, 01:08 AM
