Rich9928p

Group consensus seems to be that we need 15W50 grade oil in 928s. Now that Mobil is going to 0W30 weight for their racing oil, will 928 motors survive with it?

-------press release----------
http://www.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/...r_041103_4.asp

Fully Synthetic Motor Oil Used by Professional Racing Teams Now Available to Car Enthusiasts

FAIRFAX, Virginia (November 4, 2003) - High-performance automotive enthusiasts will soon be able to get the same boost and protection that professional race car drivers get thanks to the introduction by ExxonMobil of its new proprietary racing oil -- Mobil 1® Racing 0W-30. The new formulation will be available to the public in early Spring 2004.

Previously available only to professional racing teams, the Mobil 1 Racing formula combines the best of Mobil 1's patented SuperSyn™ technology with boosted levels of anti-wear additives, giving maximum protection and minimizing internal friction for exceptional power output. The specially designed high-performance motor oil is recommended for professional and amateur horsepower enthusiasts because it provides the performance drivers want from their high-powered engines every time they get behind the wheel.

"We developed Mobil 1 Racing for people who live to drive high-performance cars," said Tom Olszewski, technical services advisor at ExxonMobil Lubricants & Specialties. "Whether they put Mobil 1 Racing in their Honda Civic or Grand Prix GTP supercharged engine, drivers are going to notice a difference in how long their engine lasts and how well it performs under extreme driving conditions."

Professional racers have been enjoying the benefits of Mobil 1 Racing for years and right now 74 percent of NASCAR drivers use Mobil 1 technology. Uniquely engineered to help deliver maximum horsepower in all engine types, Mobil 1 Racing minimizes engine drag and friction while delivering exceptional high-temperature protection.

Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30 also incorporates anti-wear technology to help protect supercharged, turbocharged and high-revving engines with outstanding shear stability and a robust additive package to extend engine life. Compared to conventional racing oils and higher-viscosity synthetic motor oils, Mobil 1 Racing provides faster flow to critical engine parts to provide the ultimate in performance.

Additional information about Mobil 1 and other ExxonMobil lubricants can be found at www.exxonmobil.com.

Mobil 1, SuperSyn and ExxonMobil are trademarks of Exxon Mobil Corporation or one of its subsidiaries.

Lagavulin

I'm sure our resident oil-expert Doug Hilary can help us out.

toofast928

I've always used 20w -50w Mobile One. Have driven the 928 in 98 f summer weather never had a problem with overheating or low oil psi.
Why use 0 weight? Unless its a daily driver in upper Maine or Alaska.

Rich9928p

The argument has always been that a thicker viscosity is necessary to minimize metal to metal contact at high temperatures and RPM. However, Porsche has moved to a 0W-40 factory fill in all their new engines.

The benefits of a thinner viscosity oil are many:

- better heat transfer ... the oil cools critical parts better
- better flow ... more oil to the critical parts
- faster flow (more lube at start-up)
- less friction (more HP, cooler running)

The story that I've heard is that Mobil 1 R is based on the "custom" formula that Mobil has been supplying to the racers that they sponsor, so it will not be based upon their current "commercial" product line formula. It also will not be API certified.

If Mobil is able to convince the public that their advanced racing forumula at a 30 weight forumation offers better protection than 50 weight at high temperatures, they may be serious competition to Redline, AMSoil, Motul and other ultra premium oils. I'm sure the price will be higher too.

Why 0W weight oil? For faster flow upon cold start. I'm not a big fan of NASCAR, but Rusy Wallace had a lot to say on MotorWeek .... snip ...

Pat Goss: As you know, we get a lot of letters concerning oils, and who better to explain some of the myths about oils than Nascar's own Rusty Wallace.

Rusty Wallace: Hey, how you doing?

Goss : Oils, I mean you destroy oils out there.

Rusty: We do. No doubt about that.

Goss: Now, one of the myths is that oils in race cars, no one would ever use a synthetic. That's wrong.

Rusty: That's wrong. I don't think anybody would use the old style oil anymore. Almost everybody uses synthetic. I mean you can take this oil, and I'll put it in our car in the NASCAR Winston Cup circuit, take it out there. I've had cases where this might, my oil temperature gauge is pegged at 320 degrees, because we've got a piece of paper on the front of the grill. Heck, I've run 200 and 300 mile races without having any problem whatsoever. In fact, I've won races before at the oil temperature gauge peg, and you could never do that with non-synthetic oils. This stuff is really pretty bulletproof nowadays.

Goss: Okay. Now, the other thing, we're always hearing that if it's a race car, it's going to be running 50 weight oil. Now, that's changed, too.

Rusty: Yeah, a lot of people think that the more rpms you go, the hotter everything is, you've got to have this real thick oil, and that's not necessarily the case. In a lot of cases nowadays, we're qualifying in racing 0-weight oil. We've got a lot of very, very light oil. It's getting to the bearings, turns a lot of rpm, less friction, less heat because of less friction, making more horsepower. And so we do a lot of experimenting with oils, but I've got to tell you, I mean we don't race anything over 30 weight nowadays.

Goss: Isn't that amazing? The changes are just phenomenal.

Rusty: They really are. Things have changed a lot, bearing clearances, materials, the oil. It's just amazing how good Mobil's worked to produce this style of racing oil and street car oil and to come up with a formulation. It's just amazing out there. I mean I've got to tell you, when I walk into the dyno room and I see my engine on the dyno turning 9800 to 10,000 rpms, right now we're working some engines that turn over 10,000, and we've got 0-weight oil in there, and I'm just sitting there watching this thing screaming on what we call the Terminator, which is a dyno which we can actually run 500-mile races on it.

You'll hear the engine shifting on the dyno, you'll hear it run 5 hours. And I'll ask the guy, I'll say, "What oil we got in here?" Well, there's four or five different blends we might play with and help experiment with Mobil with, and he says, "Oh, that's the 0W-5 weight stuff."

I'm like, "oh my gosh", and it's just going crazy. Headers are glowing red. You take the engine apart, and the bearings look brand new. So it is absolutely a myth that you have to run 50-weight oil in these cars nowadays.

Goss: Rusty, thank you so very much.

Rusty: You bet. Thank you very much.

GlenL

Times do change, but these cars were designed for the heavy oil.

I want to hear what the pressure gauge shows on raced cars when really hot. If it doesn't show 5 psi at 2500rpm, then forget it.

Don't forget the marketing of this stuff. Its purpose is to be sold to guys who want to put "racing" oil in their street cars. The cars are getting spec'd with lower and lower viscosities so ExxonMobil is going to provide that.

toofast928

Glenn's right can't compare the 80's engines to now. Porsche did extensive testing to determine 20w 50w is to be used in the 928 engine.
(remember viscosity supports the crankshaft from touching the bearings)
Oil viscosity weight has not changed over the years. Today's engines are built with emissions in mind more than ever. Starting ease in the winter is fine for a Honda/Toyota/Hyundai engine but not for the 928.
As for Nascar, yea the crews use ANYONE'S oil that brings a few more HP. If Mobile is your sponsor, yet bet their pushing the product.

Z

You could use the same argument to say that Porsche designed these cars to use 15" wheels and leaded gas. Synthetic 0W-40 is on Porsche's approved engine oils list for all engines back to 1973, and for temperatures up to and exceeding 100 degrees. It's been listed that way on Porsche's approved engine oils list for years already.

Personally I would not use oil pressure as that much of an indicator of what's working well. Higher pressure generally means less flow. Plug the oil return paths completely and you'd have high oil pressure, but not by any means a desirable situation. If you go out and start a car first thing in the morning when it's zero degrees outside, the oil pressure is high to the point that I know of cars where it blew the oil filter off. The pressure is high because the oil is thick and can't be moved through the engine easily at all. I don't think anyone here would suggest that high oil pressure in that case makes for superior protection of the engine, and to go ahead and drive it foot to the floor then.

I definitely wouldn't put much faith in it if it was just some racecar driver making a statement like the one quoted above. Porsche and other auto manufacturers are using the thinner oils in their new high performance cars, using it for oil changes in their service departments, putting it on their approved oils lists, specifying it in their owners manuals, and in some cases even molding it right into the oil filler caps on the cars.

GlenL

Z! You're way out there. Got to wonder if you're trolling us!

Z

All you have to do is to look at the Porsche approved engine oil list, ask their service departments, ask the Mercedes service departments what they use, check what goes into the Z06, all new Porsches, all new AMG Mercedes cars, and the new Mustang Mach1 and Cobra. I'm sure there are others out there besides those as well, but those are good enough for me. Porsche knows a lot more about oil and their engines than I do, so I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea to listen to them.

GlenL

My Taurus takes 5w30. The point being I don't care what other engines take.

I'd like to see what Porsche recommends today for my 24-year old car. Any links for this?

The mobil1 site (www.mobil1.com) lists oils recommended for specific cars. Including old 928s. They only recommend thin oils for low temperature operation.

Z

Don't know of a link, but:

"Engine Oils Approved by Porsche"
PCNA Technical Bulletin
Group 1
No. 1/99, 1701
March 17, 2000

"Synthetic Engine Oils"
PCNA Technical Bulletin
Group 1
No. 9213, 1701
November 3, 1992

Parts of those are referenced and discussed in the October 2000 issue of Panorama as well.

John Veninger

Do you know how much it cost the oil company to have that happen?

Doug Hillary

Hi,
Rich - your excellent description and comments are both accurate and meaningful
and it is noted that the thread concerns ExxonMobil's synthetic oil products

GlenL - the correct oil for your car was an SE-SF/CD rated 15w-50 or 20w-50 ( but not below -15C with the latter ) viscosity mineral oil. You can still buy oils of this rating and viscosity of course in both synthetic or mineral form. They will probably still be available in NA in SE-SF>/CD> and right up to at least SL/CH-4> I expect ( see further below )

John - sometimes environmental "approval" dictates that the actual Approval oil's viscosity be displayed on the cap or elsewhere under the hood. I believe CAFE may require it in NA - it is not a requirement here in Australia. No doubt some Oil Companies demand it as part of their mutual Commercial arrangements!

Some of Mobil's M1 R "racing oil" details were first drip fed to the public during mid 2003. I mentioned it at least twice late in 2003 on here under "Racing Oils List". The full details about its API/ACEA ratings and its characteristics/chemical structure are still not publicly available at this time

My exposure to this product has been at a "development" level and I can say that it has proven to be durable in our V8 Supercar Racing series. This series is a platform for lubricant development by Chevron, Shell, Mobil and Castrol and some others. M1 R certainly does release more power ( than heavier "racer" viscosities ) and it has been used in 24hr events here proving its long term integrity

M1 R may well be a better product than Redline, Amsoil, Repsol and Motul racing oils in similar viscosities. It should at least be as good. ExxonMobil supplies base products to some of these Companies - they will not supply their very best
Those products will always have a Mobil 1 badge firmly planted on them!

M1 R is believed to be formulated from a very advanced base product and uses extremely advanced chemistry that may transfer to other M1 products at a later date

Consider a few things;

a) M1 R is primarily intended as a "race" oil and has a much more robust HT/HS viscosity ( at 150C ) which is expected to be about 4.5+. This will be much higher than other M1 products of similar or lower viscosity. As well, M1 R appears to have an extremely good NOACK ( volatility ) rating which should mean low consumption when racing

NOTE 1 - Some people on here have used M1 10w-30 Tri-synthetic blend for racing but this does not have a high enough HT/HS viscosity and so it was simply unsuitable or risky for that purpose

b) Using M1 R for day to day driving may be an unwise choice for some of us, especially those with a "non racer"driving style! This will of course depend on M1 R's API/ACEA ratings and final approvals

c) Mobil's new "SUV" 5w-40 may be a better choice for normal use in a 32v 928, and Porsche's drain intervals will certainly apply with this product. This new product may be somewhat similar to Mobil's HD Engine Oil Delvac 1 of 5w-40 viscosity made especially for heavy diesel and high performance petrol engines ( see later )

Remember that a 5w-40 oil is only at 5w viscosity when cold ( measured both at -35C & -25C ), it's 40 viscosity is measured and applicable at 100C

d) 16v 928 engines may be better off using M1 5w/15w/20w-50* in normal use ( *20w-50 only down to -15C )

e) Due to their formulation, many light viscosity M1 products may show a lower oil pressure reading than their competitors. This should not be viewed as a lack of lubrication or risky if the viscosity and use is correct for your car. It will mean more flow as oil pressure and oil flow are at times in conflict - but I can tell you that M1 R will flow very well indeed

Rich's comments about flow and heat transfer are correct. Lighter viscosity oils transfer heat much more rapidly than thicker oils. For instance a move from a 85w-140 to a 75w-90 gear oil may drop component operating temperatures by up to 20C, or more! Move to a synthetic of similar viscosity and the heat loss may be much greater

The same principle applies to individual engine components too, especially in say the 32v 928 with its piston crown jets and temperatures in that area of around 800F

Some of this temperature reduction can be due to an oil's advanced base chemistry which enables better flow characteristics ( at the expense of some oil pressure ). So M1 R will certainly help racers from the temperature management aspect if they were previously using heavy oils - maybe at the loss of a little oil pressure - we will see

It is much too soon to say how this oil will perform in the "enthusiast's" marketplace but ExxonMobil would never release another suspect blend or formulation with M1 on it - too much is at stake. The first Used Oil Analysis results from M1 R will start the process of evaluation amongst Tribologists and this will tell the story very well

Commencing in April 1992 various Porsche Technical Bulletins approved and referred to 5w-30 synthetic oils across all engine types for a temperature range spanning -30C to 40C>. Their first factory fill of Shell synthetic in 1992 was a 5w-40 and it is interesting to note that a 0w-40 synthetic is now their recommendation
This is a very robust ACEA ( Euro ) spec A3-96>/B3-96> oil and it has a very good HT/HS viscosity of about 3.6+ which is much higher than most Xw-30 oils

For me, I will stick with Mobil's HDEO Delvac 1, 5w-40 in my 928's engine - it has a HT/HS viscosity of 4.1 - but then I don't even race it

If I did I would probably try M1 R!

NOTE 2 - Disclaimer - I have no ties to any Oil Company in any way at all
nor do I see myself an "expert" on Mobil's or others products. I am a private Consultant

Regards

John Veninger

I think we were refering to the company nameon the cap (ever see a new BMW cap?), not viscosity.

Doug Hillary

Hi,
John - what a quick reply
My comment "No doubt some Oil Companies demand it as part of their mutual Commercial arrangements" was meant to refer to the naming aspect - the oil suppliers name!

Regards