Auto vs. Manual...which is faster?
09-15-2003, 04:54 PM
#16
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manual is faster unless AMAF is driving the automatic. then all bets are off. of course if it is warm outside, but a little chilly the outcome may be different.
09-15-2003, 04:55 PM
#17
Race Director
Originally posted by Ag951
I don't think a human can outshift a paddle shifter. I remember seeing numbers for it somewhere, and the paddle shifter can disengage, shift, and reengage in about the same time that it takes a normal clutch pedal to come back as the driver lifts his foot. That doesn't even include depressing the clutch and moving the shifter.
A race car clutch could be a different story though.
I don't think a human can outshift a paddle shifter. I remember seeing numbers for it somewhere, and the paddle shifter can disengage, shift, and reengage in about the same time that it takes a normal clutch pedal to come back as the driver lifts his foot. That doesn't even include depressing the clutch and moving the shifter.
A race car clutch could be a different story though.
From bullzeye.com website, stating stats about the Ferrari Challenge Stradale, a street legal car:
Switching to race mode also changes the program for the paddle-shift system, banging off gear changes in 150 milliseconds instead of a leisurely 500 ms when in sport mode.
Switching to race mode also changes the program for the paddle-shift system, banging off gear changes in 150 milliseconds instead of a leisurely 500 ms when in sport mode.
Even in the 'slow' 500 milliseconds is quite a bit faster than a human can shift!!
-Z.
09-15-2003, 05:53 PM
#18
Drifting
I think we need to make a distinction here as we're really talking about 4 different types of transmissions:
Manual Trasmission:
- This is just the normal clutch & stick shift
Sequential Manual Trasmission:
- Sometimes refered to as the SMG (S.M. Gearbox <- BMW) or F1-style (Ferrari/Masserati). This is essentially a normal manual trasmission, with a real clutch. Only difference is it uses hydraulics, a computer, some switches and a few other mechanicals to do all the shifting for you. You can often set in either full-auto mode (drives like a normal automatic) or SMT mode (paddle shifter). This type of trasmission can be VERY fast, like as in 0.1 second shifts, and has minimal drivetrain loss as most of the components are the same as a regular manual tranny.
There are a couple different companies making these and each one has it's own "features", but they all use a real clutch and standard-style gearbox.
Manually-Controlled Automatic:
- This is the Porsche Triptronic, Mopar "Autostick" and all those other "manual automatics". This is nothing more than an automatic transmission with a few extra switches & electronics to allow you to choose the shift points. These all still have a torque converter and an automatic-style transmission. This means you still get all that drivetrain loss and slow-shifting of an automatic. As with all automatics some are better than others however and some can have decent performance.
Normal Automatic Transmission
- This is just the normal automatic transmission we've all seen 100 times before. Due to their design they often have fewer gear ratios, longer shift times, and a lot of drivetrain loss. While they can be made to perform quite well, they are often beaten by manual transmission cars still.
I have heard that automatic transmissions can actually be better at the dragstrip, but I imagine this would be the SMT's which can shift faster and more accuratly (as in at the more optimal time) than any human can.
At the track I would still think either a standard transmission or a SMT would be ideal due to the low drivetrain loss and enhanced control (you don't want any surprises at the track).
Manual Trasmission:
- This is just the normal clutch & stick shift
Sequential Manual Trasmission:
- Sometimes refered to as the SMG (S.M. Gearbox <- BMW) or F1-style (Ferrari/Masserati). This is essentially a normal manual trasmission, with a real clutch. Only difference is it uses hydraulics, a computer, some switches and a few other mechanicals to do all the shifting for you. You can often set in either full-auto mode (drives like a normal automatic) or SMT mode (paddle shifter). This type of trasmission can be VERY fast, like as in 0.1 second shifts, and has minimal drivetrain loss as most of the components are the same as a regular manual tranny.
There are a couple different companies making these and each one has it's own "features", but they all use a real clutch and standard-style gearbox.
Manually-Controlled Automatic:
- This is the Porsche Triptronic, Mopar "Autostick" and all those other "manual automatics". This is nothing more than an automatic transmission with a few extra switches & electronics to allow you to choose the shift points. These all still have a torque converter and an automatic-style transmission. This means you still get all that drivetrain loss and slow-shifting of an automatic. As with all automatics some are better than others however and some can have decent performance.
Normal Automatic Transmission
- This is just the normal automatic transmission we've all seen 100 times before. Due to their design they often have fewer gear ratios, longer shift times, and a lot of drivetrain loss. While they can be made to perform quite well, they are often beaten by manual transmission cars still.
I have heard that automatic transmissions can actually be better at the dragstrip, but I imagine this would be the SMT's which can shift faster and more accuratly (as in at the more optimal time) than any human can.
At the track I would still think either a standard transmission or a SMT would be ideal due to the low drivetrain loss and enhanced control (you don't want any surprises at the track).
09-15-2003, 06:04 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
sequential manual's are sweet but the ferrari paddle system is not a SMT because if it was it would heve to be rebuilt very often... also ferrari's with manual's have been proven to be quite a bit faster as the paddle system is the same as triptronic.......
here is a sequential gearbox in action...
http://highboost.com/movies/vsdragjz.mpg
Also normal manual cars do not require a clutch like many of you belive... Its called powershifting. (I do not belive you can do it in the 944 or 911's but I am not about to try) but on mustang's cammaro's and toyota's its possible to change gears without useing the clutch without the clutch.... This is a very instant change of gears..... but don't expect a tranny to last long.. So in theory however fast you can throw the shifter is how fast you can shift gear's.... Also you have to change gears in a paddle shifter so you are still throwing your fingers.... you do the math I still think normal manual is faster....
here is a sequential gearbox in action...
http://highboost.com/movies/vsdragjz.mpg
Also normal manual cars do not require a clutch like many of you belive... Its called powershifting. (I do not belive you can do it in the 944 or 911's but I am not about to try) but on mustang's cammaro's and toyota's its possible to change gears without useing the clutch without the clutch.... This is a very instant change of gears..... but don't expect a tranny to last long.. So in theory however fast you can throw the shifter is how fast you can shift gear's.... Also you have to change gears in a paddle shifter so you are still throwing your fingers.... you do the math I still think normal manual is faster....
09-15-2003, 06:08 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
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Originally posted by Z-man
I beg to disagree.
Full source: http://bullzeye.com/carreviews/2003/...e_stradale.htm
Even in the 'slow' 500 milliseconds is quite a bit faster than a human can shift!!
-Z.
I beg to disagree.
Full source: http://bullzeye.com/carreviews/2003/...e_stradale.htm
Even in the 'slow' 500 milliseconds is quite a bit faster than a human can shift!!
-Z.
Your evidence supports my guess.
500ms is half a second. I would think that a pro driver, in a race car, can shift in under half a second. It doesn't feel like I'm much slower than that (definetly under a second).
But the paddle shifter's 150ms time is beyond the fastest human time.
09-16-2003, 12:55 AM
#21
Drifting
Originally posted by Fishey
sequential manual's are sweet but the ferrari paddle system is not a SMT because if it was it would heve to be rebuilt very often... also ferrari's with manual's have been proven to be quite a bit faster as the paddle system is the same as triptronic.......
here is a sequential gearbox in action...
http://highboost.com/movies/vsdragjz.mpg
Also normal manual cars do not require a clutch like many of you belive... Its called powershifting. (I do not belive you can do it in the 944 or 911's but I am not about to try) but on mustang's cammaro's and toyota's its possible to change gears without useing the clutch without the clutch.... This is a very instant change of gears..... but don't expect a tranny to last long.. So in theory however fast you can throw the shifter is how fast you can shift gear's.... Also you have to change gears in a paddle shifter so you are still throwing your fingers.... you do the math I still think normal manual is faster....
sequential manual's are sweet but the ferrari paddle system is not a SMT because if it was it would heve to be rebuilt very often... also ferrari's with manual's have been proven to be quite a bit faster as the paddle system is the same as triptronic.......
here is a sequential gearbox in action...
http://highboost.com/movies/vsdragjz.mpg
Also normal manual cars do not require a clutch like many of you belive... Its called powershifting. (I do not belive you can do it in the 944 or 911's but I am not about to try) but on mustang's cammaro's and toyota's its possible to change gears without useing the clutch without the clutch.... This is a very instant change of gears..... but don't expect a tranny to last long.. So in theory however fast you can throw the shifter is how fast you can shift gear's.... Also you have to change gears in a paddle shifter so you are still throwing your fingers.... you do the math I still think normal manual is faster....
As for the power shifting, they do work just fine on our cars, and actually aren't that harmful if you are good at rev-matching. I still use the clutch though.
09-16-2003, 01:44 AM
#22
Nordschleife Master
I figure this is a good time to ask this while on the subject of transmissions and shifting. Can anyone explain to me what 'power shifting' is. Is that the same as clutchless shifting? I used to talk to some Mustang 5.0 guys at the local shows (very nice guys really) and they used to mention that all the time. How is it done? Also what does it mean to 'double clutch' a car?
09-16-2003, 02:20 AM
#24
Powershifting usually means shifting without a clutch. You need to rev-match pretty darn good.
Double clutching is something you had to do in older cars without syncros in the gears. When downshifting, you put it in neutral, let the clutch out, then push it in and go to the proper gear. Matches engine/transmission speed better.
Double clutching is something you had to do in older cars without syncros in the gears. When downshifting, you put it in neutral, let the clutch out, then push it in and go to the proper gear. Matches engine/transmission speed better.
09-16-2003, 03:08 AM
#26
Nordschleife Master
I think Legoland951 can powershift - one of his 944s has no donut left!
- Julie
- Julie
09-16-2003, 10:28 AM
#27
Race Director
Originally posted by Ag951
Reread what I said: "I don't think a human can outshift a paddle shifter".
Your evidence supports my guess.
500ms is half a second. I would think that a pro driver, in a race car, can shift in under half a second. It doesn't feel like I'm much slower than that (definetly under a second).
But the paddle shifter's 150ms time is beyond the fastest human time.
Reread what I said: "I don't think a human can outshift a paddle shifter".
Your evidence supports my guess.
500ms is half a second. I would think that a pro driver, in a race car, can shift in under half a second. It doesn't feel like I'm much slower than that (definetly under a second).
But the paddle shifter's 150ms time is beyond the fastest human time.
-Z-man.
09-16-2003, 10:48 AM
#28
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When I had my 87 Integra, the manual showed the speeds you didn't have to clutch for - aka power shifting. I gave it a try. I think it was from 1-2nd @ 14 mph, and from 2-3rd @ 28mph. Anyway, you hit that speed, and throw the shift **** to the next gear.
I did it once, and it made me so uncomfortable hearing those "clunk" sounds, I never did it again!
I did it once, and it made me so uncomfortable hearing those "clunk" sounds, I never did it again!
09-16-2003, 11:17 AM
#29
Nordschleife Master
I can powershift.. But I do not do it on the 944 or my fathers 993... Cheaper car's sure, posches's no way.........
secret is to pull it out of gear let of gas for very little time... then slam into next gear.. very quickly done right no sound...
secret is to pull it out of gear let of gas for very little time... then slam into next gear.. very quickly done right no sound...
09-16-2003, 11:25 AM
#30
Drifting
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Yeah I've done it in the S2 before..as long as you rev match perfectly it slides in just fine, granted i don't slam it in there like i do with the clutch in, just nice and easy and its fine. I never tried it on a downshift though..i think i'll pass on trying that.