DoubleNutz

Ahmet, sorry my friend, again you are simply wrong regarding the 959 chassis. Please visit this site on 959 Production, again it is clearly stated that the 959 was built and tested on a 911 chassis.

Additionally, you will find in this same article discussions on the similarities in the 928 suspension (dual wish bone Wiesach axles), braking (four piston brake calipers), engine design (water-cooled, aluminium alloy head and block, aluminium forged pistons finished with polishing, titanium con-rods, 2 camshafts in each bank driving 4 valves per cylinder). All these features (and more) simultaneously appeared on only one other Porsche first...The 928.

Additonally the 928 took nothing from either the 911, 924, or 944. Its research and development began back in 1971 (long before the 924) and has in its pedigree the ONLY clean book Porsche, that borrowed nothing from any other car be it a VW, Audi, 924, 911, 944. I have this in print from "a limited production book called "PROJECT 928" which followed the development of the Porsche 928 from 1971 to 1978

I am again sorry to differ with you so strongly but your statement is simply not correct.

Kind regards,

DoubleNutz

Ahmet, I could be convinced easily that I am wrong if you can find that in print for me anywhere. I am somewhat of a 928 history buff and can supply published text and proof of everything I have written here. Subsequently, I am no expert on the design and development of of the 924/944/951. So, I could be easily convinced if you could supply me with some objective and real proof that what you are sying is so. I have never seen that (which you have written here) published anywhere.

I hope no hard feelings my friend. I just would like to explore only the facts not the inuendo's and rumors.

p@

DoubleNutz

By the way I checked this out...

the motronic engine management system (Bosch L-Jetronic with integrated electronic ignition timing).

"the 928 started using L-jetronic in 80, and the 944 didn't come out until 83 (although I
think there were some 82s, technically)."

Again the Porsche 928 introduced this techology in to Porsche autombiles first not the 944 as you indicated.

p@
It d

Lars

On a funny note: the 928 didn't come from a 911 or any other porsche, but where did porsche find a picture of an AMC pacer!!! on the floor while tehy were sketching it in the factory!!

Interestingly enough, 4 piston brake calipers come standard on early 80 volvo 240s! Cool, eh?

The 928 STOLE the pop up lights from the lamborghini miara though, right? It stole the hatch back from a pacer, and i guess thats it!

The 959 IMO looks like it came from a 911!!!

Ahmet

The 928 had Motronic in 1980? (I thought it had CIS)...

The 959 is clearly based on the 911, that's not what I'm saying... A lot of the engine development took place with a 944 drivetrain. (The two turbos, engine management, etc.), as well as certain chasis, and suspension layouts were tested using a 'testbed' which was largely a 944 turbo chasis.

What can I say, this is all from memory, so don't mind the above comments at all. If I come across specific info on this subject, I'll either e-mail it to you, or post it here. No biggie.

PS: Thanks for being polite, I'm not positive that my comments were entirely true, as I've noted it's all from memory, don't quote me (at least not yet).
Ahmet

Super Space Monkey

I think PRDATR needs to check out the latest issue of Panorama which hints at the development of the 959 turbo system to the 951, also I have been racing a stock 951 since 95 and no stock or even street legal 928 has ever come close to my stock 951! period! I like the 928 but not as a track car it's just way to slow until you spend thousands and thousands...

DoubleNutz

True the 928 "stole" (so to speak) its headlamps from the Lamborghini Miura. However, Tony Lapine who designed that car car for lamborghini also was the lead design engineer for the 928. However, there was a prctical concept in mind exposing the headlamps and it was to insure that the lense were washed each time the car was washed.

As for the four piston brembo brake caliper and Volvo, I am unsure of any racing development done with brembo for Volvo for Porsche 959 and and 928.

I won't comment on the 951 and my personal experience in my 928 on the track. All that I will say is that I enjoy the styling of the 951 through a rear view mirror when pulling away it is pretty awesome .

I am not here to brag about the virtues of the 928 becuase i think there are some fairly awsome virtues exclusive to the 951. But to say that 928 is a slow Porsche is proof that that opinion is not an objective or accurate one at all.

In my sock 85S I have walked on and embarrased many a car and my 89S4 in stock condition was quite the "ego hammer".

Now if you want to make 500plus horsepower in a 928, yes that is big bucks, it is equally (if possible) in a 951 just as expensive to accomplish.

All I know is that speed records are still being broken in 928's (Devek's Susan Kirby recently GPS clocked at over 210MPH).

I have never heard of a 951 breaking any landspeed records like that on a open road course any where. Mark Anderson of
928 International is out competing on Speedvision in a 928 I have yet to seea 951 get even close to him in those races. I can name others too.

However, once again I am not here to slam slam any of the other water cooled front engine Porsche's but, I have to stand-up and say that anyone who implies that the 928 is a slow car is not sharing the honest truth about the capabilities of the 928.

TimC

OH for pete's sake! All I'm gonna say at this point is this sort of "discussion" didn't seem to pop up on the old board.

T

PS -
a) ANY Porsche is expensive to maintain.
b) ANY Porsche is advanced and has many innovations.
c) There is still no substitute.

MadMax

I would like to second TimC. I have owned both a 911 Carrera (mint condition) and a 944 S2 Cabriolet (slightly less than mint) and both have their postitives and negatives. I have never owned a 928 and therefore don't have an opinion on their reliability or driveability. From what I've heard, they are wonderful "GT" cars. They have a lot of power and V-8 torque but they are heavy. They were not designed to be an autocross winner or a slalom killer. They are very fine sports cars and an excellent example of Porsche design skill and talent.

However, the absence of a plethora of "posts" requesting maintenance info on the 928 DOES NOT prove they are more reliable than other Porsches. The gap in that logic (if I dare call it logic) is too large to make the leap. 928's were the most expensive Porsche for their day and they were not produced in nearly the numbers that 911's or 944's were. That is one basic reason that there are not that many posts from a large number of different people.

So, relax guys. I NEVER thought I would buy a 944 after I owned my 911 but hey, it's still a Porsche and it looks great and handles beautifully.

As for the ORIGINAL question in this thread...R. Miller, you DON'T have a dilema. As has already been stated, with only $10,500 to purchase with you had better stick with a 944/951. That kind of money is not likely to buy you much 911 or 928. I would recommend to you what Jim Pasha does in each section of Excellence's market update, "buy the best example that you can afford". Even still I would expect to put up to $2000 in the car within the first year. They are pre-owned getting older so, no matter how good the car looks and drives there are intangibles that may/will go wrong/break.

Just my opinion.

DoubleNutz

Well said MadMax. No "Gap in my logic" however. I have been an owner of 3 928's (two that were near mint and one that was a complete restoration project)and I need to dispel the myths that 928 are maintenance nightmares (totally untrue), slow (very untrue a stock 928S4 automatic with no mods does 0-60 in about 5.8 seconds), handle poorly (very also untrue, I have had freinds that driven 911 all their lives and have tracked my 928 one time and very astonished by its performance and handling. As for Autocross I would like to point out that the 928 has recently also broken a few PCA records in autocross), and finally the rumor that 928 is less agile becuase of it weight (loaded down with everything a 928S4 is approximately 37-3800lbs race prepped I have seen them as light as 28-2900lbs. A brand new 996 Twin Turbo weights in at approx. 3800lbs stripped down and race prepped I am unsure. However, given the skill required to drive a race prepped 996 which car do you think will more of a challenge to handle?).

If you have ever been given the opportunity to drive a 928 I think you also (as many of my 911 friends have) be astonished by the myths about this particular Porsche. In this months Thoroughbred and Classic Cars on page 58 a little known fact in recent history- "...interestingly, given the choice of any Porsche as their road car, all of Stuttgart's works competition drivers of the day chose to drive a 928 over a 911."

My point here is not to slam 944,951 or 911 it is simply , as I said earlier, dispel the bad rumors and myths and present the view point of a 928 owner which is clearly not present here. The info given about the 928 was just "BAD and UNTRUE"

The 928 was a rather elitist super-car among Porsches and less that 19,000 cars were patriated on US shores over 20 years (less the 50 cars in 1995 and 0, yes 0, in 1992 so they are also rare among the 911 and 951 or 944's the only opionion regarding these fine vehicles can only be gathered from those that have driven or owned them. Like I provided in a few posts back in January 2001 Motorweek selected the 928 as their best for handling , performance, luxury and safety out of the thousands of cars that they have driven over the years. I am sure that there will be varying opinions on the absolute best car from many different sources but the fact that the 928 rose above the 1000's of cars that they have tested in so many years says something about the greatness of this particular Porsche if you were seeking an objective opinion.

Just my .928cents worth

MadMax

PRDATR,

You said,
I am sure that a 928 properly preparred did/can break autocross reocords. I was really only considering them 'as they left the factory', meaning as Porsche designed them.

From PRDATR,
Again, I stress my discussion as regarding "as they left the factory", not stripped down.

From PRDATR:
This is what I was attempting to point out with my unintentionally sarcastic remark about "logic" . The reason for the absence of a variety of posts from a variety of people is due in large part to the fact that the cars are RARE. I don't feel that the 928 is a poorly designed car at all. It is more complex than all Porsches, except the turbo models (and I am sure there is room to debate that issue as well). I don't care if it is a Ferrari, Mercedes, Porsche or a Honda, the more complex a piece of machinery is, TYPICALLY...TYPICALLY the less reliable it is. I am still NOT saying that the 928 is unreliable but due to its rarity and the lack of qualified mechanics it can more expensive to maintain. (statement not made on experience) It's just basic supply and demand. Reliability is truly a maintenance and standard of care issue (to use a legal term). A well maintained 928 will be more reliable than a poorly maintained 911 or a moderately maintained 951.

That is why these discussions digress so badly.
Written comments can EASILY be misunderstood and EVERYONE on the BBS would be well advised to consider the intent of what they are writing and how it MAY be interpreted so as not to offer offense.
This board is not quite as bad as the Pelican BBS but it is getting there. These forums are intended to be helpful information exchanges. When someone puts out bad info, I am sure it is not intentional so I would respectfully request that we all throttle back a bit. No one is always right and some of this stuff is very subjective.

PRDATR, From what I understand you guys have a really good support network up in the Pac NW for the 928 which undoubtedly helps keep ownership cost down and enjoyment factor up. I just wish EVERYONE would stop the 'my dad can beat up your dad' crap. It is ruining a great source of support and information exchange.



[ 06-18-2001: Message edited by: MadMax ]

dan b

prdatr, you stated the 928 got the 4 piston brembos in 86' and that it was the first porsche to get 4-piston calipers. im just stuck sitting here wondering how my 85'(production date of nov 84')951 hade and has stock 4-piston brembo calipers on it? my car is #13 of the 178 951's made as late 85's.also stock your 928 ran 0-60 in 5.8 ge the stock 89' 944 turbo ran 0-60 in 5.7 seconds (and with a 4 cylinder).oh but we are comparing a 5.4L to a 2.5L right? as for getting 500HP from a 951 all i got to say is NNNOOOO PROB!!! now to get much over 600 is another story. you do know the 968 is basicly on a 951 platform amd in 95 the 968 turbo RS made 387HP and according to porsche that is more HP than the 928GTS! oh and the 968 turbo RS ran 0-60 in 5.07 sec.as for the land speed records the 951 has the prob of too low of gearing and no way to change it. were the 928 has the mercades trans in it and has many choises.also wasn't the 928 advertised and noted for creating the market of luxeory-sports cars? i am currently stationed in germany and let me tell you, here you couldnt give a 928 away they eat too much gas and dont deliver the perfomance to mach i mean you get a 951 put a mass air flow kit on it and enjoy over 300HP and a top speed of over 175MPH. with that you can beat the 928's up the big joke over here is yeh the 928 is fast if it dont run out of gas! and why is so much conflict here i just dont understand i mean shouldt porsche owners stick together? when i had a camaro i never heard the vette guys put me down for it, all they did was be nice to me for i was a fellow chevy owner. why cant porsche be that way ?? what is there to be prooved? i just dont get it!

Lars

Any car can go fast with a turbo, a 2 cylinder turbo lawnmower could beat a porsche, turbos are just uncomparable to a NA.
Volvo station wagons can made it to 60 in 6.5 seconds with little adjustments (turn a bolt to increase boost), I say that turbos aren't fast until you get under 5 seconds, like say the 930s

kupton

I had the same decision about a year ago. I bought the 944T. $7K later in repairs, I wish I bought the 911SC...

And yes I had a pre-purchase inspection.

Dave951M

I think we have grossly strayed from the original path. No one is belittling the power and grace of the 928. The original question was which model is best for a limited acquisition amount, best for the parking situation, and best for a college student. I stand by my original opinion, get a small truck.

I was shopping for either a 928S or a 951. There is no denying that the money you would spend on an average condition 928 will get a really good 951. Same with the 911. Is there any hint of a comment about capability there? NO. The economic reality of the average college student will preclude ownership of either the 911 or 928, or any other Porsche in my opinion. Notice he has to park it outside, or will have to use it to move to different quarters. The insurance question wasn't even mentioned. Are there any underwriters out there that would write a policy for a 21 year old male with a Porsche without hedging through obscene premiums? If you're talking liability only, then the cost of anything else, comprehensive here, is an evil necessity. This kid is in FLA, land of the snowbirds and bluehairs looking under the wheel. Still sounds like truck time to me until graduation. The economics of the 911 and 928 are such that there is just about zero chance of the car being maintained properly unless he's a rich kid. The reason- 911 parts are just plain expensive with no Audi or VW crossovers. The 928 was made in limited numbers. Limited numbers mean limited numbers of consumers to buy parts which means expensive parts. Simple Keynsian economics. Notice again- no mention is made of the looks or capability of the 928 or the 911.

For my advice, get a truck or other SUV, save the Porsche for later. The money you save in repairs and insurance can be banked to get whatever you like later. I still think the 93 928GTS is the second best looking Porsche made (I'm partial to the 906/08 series in that department). The performance of this car is breathtaking, so is the parts costs. So what if it rarely breaks, when it does, yowza! (Limited Production, Limited Resources, High Price). As for the 911, I like the looks of the late 70's. I have never liked a 35/65 weight distribution. So I drive the best Porsche example I can afford, the 951. Maybe one day I can afford the 928 of my dreams, but in the meantime....

Dave951M