Konis vs. Bilsteins for 944 Turbo
02-14-2002, 07:56 AM
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Konis vs. Bilsteins for 944 Turbo
I may be opening up Pandora's Box on this one, but it' probably not the first time for this board!!
I'm in the process of evaluating suspension upgrade options for my '86 951 with 143k miles. I intend to use the car for autocrossing and light track duty (DE events). After complete disassembly of the front suspension, it appears that everything is stock and original on the car. The rear shocks also appear to be original.
I have seen a lot of discussion about Koni products, in particular the Koni Yellow Sport adjustable shocks. Also, many people seem to be retrofitting their "non-rebuildable" struts with adjustable spring perches and updated Koni inserts.
However, I haven't seen nearly as much discussion about Bilstein products. I checked out Powerhaus' and The Racer's Group websites, and they both offer a "Bilstein Cup Coilover Suspension" that looks great. Their kits include the adjustable camber plates and appear to come with a complete strut assembly for the front so there is no need for the retrofit as with the Konis.
I have also seen several posts about people replacing their Konis with Bilsteins but never the other way around (i.e. replacing Bilsteins with Konis). Is the Bilstein set-up considered the "gold standard" for the 944 Turbo? I'm assuming that the other options then are somewhat of a comprimise, mostly for budget ($$) reasons. At this point, I'm interested in replacing everything one time, since I don't want to be redoing this in a few years.
Thoughts and comments please...
I'm in the process of evaluating suspension upgrade options for my '86 951 with 143k miles. I intend to use the car for autocrossing and light track duty (DE events). After complete disassembly of the front suspension, it appears that everything is stock and original on the car. The rear shocks also appear to be original.
I have seen a lot of discussion about Koni products, in particular the Koni Yellow Sport adjustable shocks. Also, many people seem to be retrofitting their "non-rebuildable" struts with adjustable spring perches and updated Koni inserts.
However, I haven't seen nearly as much discussion about Bilstein products. I checked out Powerhaus' and The Racer's Group websites, and they both offer a "Bilstein Cup Coilover Suspension" that looks great. Their kits include the adjustable camber plates and appear to come with a complete strut assembly for the front so there is no need for the retrofit as with the Konis.
I have also seen several posts about people replacing their Konis with Bilsteins but never the other way around (i.e. replacing Bilsteins with Konis). Is the Bilstein set-up considered the "gold standard" for the 944 Turbo? I'm assuming that the other options then are somewhat of a comprimise, mostly for budget ($$) reasons. At this point, I'm interested in replacing everything one time, since I don't want to be redoing this in a few years.
Thoughts and comments please...
02-14-2002, 08:00 AM
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Research, research, research.
<a href="http://www.davidsims.ukgateway.net/944t/suspension.htm" target="_blank">http://www.davidsims.ukgateway.net/944t/suspension.htm</a>
This is the best website I have found.
Talk to Jason at Paragon and Karl at Racers Edge.
Do it once, do it right! <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
<a href="http://www.davidsims.ukgateway.net/944t/suspension.htm" target="_blank">http://www.davidsims.ukgateway.net/944t/suspension.htm</a>
This is the best website I have found.
Talk to Jason at Paragon and Karl at Racers Edge.
Do it once, do it right! <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
02-14-2002, 08:40 AM
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My Bilstein Coilovers are superior to the Koni Welts I had previous. What convinced me not to go with the Paragon Coil over conversion is the inability to go to heigher spring rates than 400 #s without having to replace the adjustable Konis or have them revalved for the stiffer springs (more money and inconvenient). I wanted to be able to easily go to high spring rates. 500#/ 750# rear. The turn in and overall limits are much higher. If you have the money, go for the Bilsteins from Powerhaus ! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
02-14-2002, 10:30 AM
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I may be wrong about this, but is it possible to to the koni or bilstein to a 1986 951. Don't you need to replace everything in the front suspension to use the konis. After 1986 it is possible to easly adapt or swap in the konis and bilstens in the front. Let me know if I am wrong, because I plan to replace my shocks in my 86 951 and thought that I can't do the koni thing with out a major hysterectomy in the front end.
John
John
02-14-2002, 01:23 PM
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First, I won't make any comparisons to other products, that's not my place... with that, here's the Koni options you have (re: 86 951)
- Koni 1414S cut-n-drill strut inserts - single adjustable for rebound, standard valving handles spring rates to ~400# (custom valved applications can be done to order). Ride height adjust can be added to these, and would use the 2.5" ID spings available from 100-1000# in various free lengths.
- Koni 1007S strut complete (M030 type) - custom valved by Koni and made double-adjustable for bump and rebound, handles spring rates to ~650# (again, custom valved applications can be done to order). Availability varies, and price depends on if you have useable cores to trade. You must use shims and slightly modify the 86 steering knuckle to use these. (For race cars, it's generally considered best to switch to the larger 87+ spindles to prevent failure)
- Koni 2817 - Big dog racing shocks... ask for more info if you're interested in these. These are the same units in use by IRL, CART, ALMS GT/GTS, HRC, British Touring, German Touring, etc.
All konis are adjustable. Rear shocks to match each front set are available. The 1414S is the new insert for sealed struts. Installation is rated fairly simple (2-3 Beers on my own effort scale). No other parts or modifications are needed.
Good Luck!
- Koni 1414S cut-n-drill strut inserts - single adjustable for rebound, standard valving handles spring rates to ~400# (custom valved applications can be done to order). Ride height adjust can be added to these, and would use the 2.5" ID spings available from 100-1000# in various free lengths.
- Koni 1007S strut complete (M030 type) - custom valved by Koni and made double-adjustable for bump and rebound, handles spring rates to ~650# (again, custom valved applications can be done to order). Availability varies, and price depends on if you have useable cores to trade. You must use shims and slightly modify the 86 steering knuckle to use these. (For race cars, it's generally considered best to switch to the larger 87+ spindles to prevent failure)
- Koni 2817 - Big dog racing shocks... ask for more info if you're interested in these. These are the same units in use by IRL, CART, ALMS GT/GTS, HRC, British Touring, German Touring, etc.
All konis are adjustable. Rear shocks to match each front set are available. The 1414S is the new insert for sealed struts. Installation is rated fairly simple (2-3 Beers on my own effort scale). No other parts or modifications are needed.
Good Luck!
02-14-2002, 01:59 PM
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Koni gets a lot of press here, I think it best not to get into my opinions on why.
My personal opinion is that Koni makes a better adjustable street shock. At the track the Bilstiens are a better choice. In particular
Front
AK-1120 Threaded Body with Valving 600/190
AK-1121 Threaded Body with Valving 600/190
Rear
AK-37354 Threaded Body with Valving 565/218
These are out of the box a bulledproof set up, if you tracking the car a lot I would recommend removing about half the bumpstop on the fronts. (takes about 10 minutes). I know guys that have been running this set up for 3 years 6-10 events a year, and they still perform like new.
Stay with stock front swaybar and start with some 600 springs with helpers.
If you look at the thread that Doc posted (yesterday I think)with all the pictures he has this setup, but he has a M030 front bar. As you can see from that post the M030 is to much bar. So you can save some $$$ and leave the stock bar in. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
My personal opinion is that Koni makes a better adjustable street shock. At the track the Bilstiens are a better choice. In particular
Front
AK-1120 Threaded Body with Valving 600/190
AK-1121 Threaded Body with Valving 600/190
Rear
AK-37354 Threaded Body with Valving 565/218
These are out of the box a bulledproof set up, if you tracking the car a lot I would recommend removing about half the bumpstop on the fronts. (takes about 10 minutes). I know guys that have been running this set up for 3 years 6-10 events a year, and they still perform like new.
Stay with stock front swaybar and start with some 600 springs with helpers.
If you look at the thread that Doc posted (yesterday I think)with all the pictures he has this setup, but he has a M030 front bar. As you can see from that post the M030 is to much bar. So you can save some $$$ and leave the stock bar in. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
02-14-2002, 02:35 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by David Salama:
<strong>My Bilstein Coilovers are superior to the Koni Welts I had previous. What convinced me not to go with the Paragon Coil over conversion is the inability to go to heigher spring rates than 400 #s</strong><hr></blockquote>I don't understand this comment. I have the 3012 Koni coilovers and I can tell you they are anything but weak. The valving used for the Paragon setup is the 3rd stiffest offered by Koni... normally for spring rates between 500 and 3500 lb/in. Isn't that enough?
I run mine full soft on the street with 24 mm torsion bars and 275 lb/in helper springs. The car is still very stiff, and can be made MUCH stiffer with a few clicks or turns of the adjusters. You can't do that with the Bilstein since they are not adjustable.
The true Bilstein Cup suspension setup is not streetable IMO. I know guys that have installed it and removed it because it is VERY harsh. The original poster drives his car on the street and in an occasional DE. He doesn't need the Bilstein Cup solution. All he really needs are a good set of Koni yellows at a much lower price.
Suspension setups are one thing that is very dependant on what the particular driver likes. For each guy that likes his car stiff as can be there's another guy that likes it softer. For a street car most people choose to make a reasonable compromise that fits their driving likes and dislikes.
<strong>My Bilstein Coilovers are superior to the Koni Welts I had previous. What convinced me not to go with the Paragon Coil over conversion is the inability to go to heigher spring rates than 400 #s</strong><hr></blockquote>I don't understand this comment. I have the 3012 Koni coilovers and I can tell you they are anything but weak. The valving used for the Paragon setup is the 3rd stiffest offered by Koni... normally for spring rates between 500 and 3500 lb/in. Isn't that enough?
I run mine full soft on the street with 24 mm torsion bars and 275 lb/in helper springs. The car is still very stiff, and can be made MUCH stiffer with a few clicks or turns of the adjusters. You can't do that with the Bilstein since they are not adjustable.
The true Bilstein Cup suspension setup is not streetable IMO. I know guys that have installed it and removed it because it is VERY harsh. The original poster drives his car on the street and in an occasional DE. He doesn't need the Bilstein Cup solution. All he really needs are a good set of Koni yellows at a much lower price.
Suspension setups are one thing that is very dependant on what the particular driver likes. For each guy that likes his car stiff as can be there's another guy that likes it softer. For a street car most people choose to make a reasonable compromise that fits their driving likes and dislikes.
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02-14-2002, 03:12 PM
#8
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Well, it's difficult to say "stiff" vs. "soft" when comparing Konis and Bilsteins because these shocks have different operating ranges. Bilsteins in general, can handle a wider variety of bumps than Konis, thus you don't need the adjustability. That's partly due to their single-tube, high-pressure gas deCarbon valving design (like racing Konis).
That means you can run over a set of railroad tracks on the Bilsteins and the Konis would have to be set to full soft for the same bump handling. Then go to the other extreme and do some whoop-de-doop type road irregularities (getting air off a hill, double-jump style) and the Bilsteins soaks those up as well. The same Konis set to full soft would bottom out, so you need to dial those 3/4 stiff to handle the large-motion, low-velocity bumps. But then the next time you run over railroad tracks you gotta get out and re-adjust the Konis to full soft again. So the range of bumps that can be handled by Bilsteins is wider than Konis. When you have the Konies adjusted to fall to one end or the other of the Bilsteins range, they both function pretty much identically for those kinds of bumps.
What hasn't been addressed is fade-resistance. Being a single-tube design, the Bilsteins resist fade much, much better than Koni's twin-tube design. I didn't even realize this was a factor until I took a mountain roads "shortcut" to Willow Springs one time. After you get over the mountains, it's a drop to the desert floor and across the valley on some isolated remote desert roads. These aren't the best maintained roads out there and after about 30-minutes, my Konis were completely useless regardless of the adjustment ****'s position. I changed them out for my Bilsteins at the track. Which I can do in 10-minutes or less because I've got '82-85 944NA rebuildable strut housings on my 951 and I can change springs and strut-inserts without even removing the wheels (preserves my alignment settings too).
On the way back, I took the mountain roads back and the Bilsteins never complained. And that's after a full day of flogging at the track too. GO for the Bilsteins!
P.S. Fletch, you wanna set me up with some SSF sponsorship for some of those Bilsteins for my <a href="http://www.opentrackchallenge.com" target="_blank">OTC</a> adventure?
That means you can run over a set of railroad tracks on the Bilsteins and the Konis would have to be set to full soft for the same bump handling. Then go to the other extreme and do some whoop-de-doop type road irregularities (getting air off a hill, double-jump style) and the Bilsteins soaks those up as well. The same Konis set to full soft would bottom out, so you need to dial those 3/4 stiff to handle the large-motion, low-velocity bumps. But then the next time you run over railroad tracks you gotta get out and re-adjust the Konis to full soft again. So the range of bumps that can be handled by Bilsteins is wider than Konis. When you have the Konies adjusted to fall to one end or the other of the Bilsteins range, they both function pretty much identically for those kinds of bumps.
What hasn't been addressed is fade-resistance. Being a single-tube design, the Bilsteins resist fade much, much better than Koni's twin-tube design. I didn't even realize this was a factor until I took a mountain roads "shortcut" to Willow Springs one time. After you get over the mountains, it's a drop to the desert floor and across the valley on some isolated remote desert roads. These aren't the best maintained roads out there and after about 30-minutes, my Konis were completely useless regardless of the adjustment ****'s position. I changed them out for my Bilsteins at the track. Which I can do in 10-minutes or less because I've got '82-85 944NA rebuildable strut housings on my 951 and I can change springs and strut-inserts without even removing the wheels (preserves my alignment settings too).
On the way back, I took the mountain roads back and the Bilsteins never complained. And that's after a full day of flogging at the track too. GO for the Bilsteins!
P.S. Fletch, you wanna set me up with some SSF sponsorship for some of those Bilsteins for my <a href="http://www.opentrackchallenge.com" target="_blank">OTC</a> adventure?
02-14-2002, 03:39 PM
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Race Car
[quote]Modifications: BBS Race wheels using stock wheels as spacers
go-fast stickers, 50hp coffee-can, fuzzy-dice, 4x15" subs, 200-disc CD-changer, neon floorboards, LED windshield washers and valve-stems caps, Super Big-Gulp cup-holder,AC/DC inverter for espresso machine, heated seats with back massager,hands-free cellular adapter, GPS navigation system<hr></blockquote>
Hahah!
go-fast stickers, 50hp coffee-can, fuzzy-dice, 4x15" subs, 200-disc CD-changer, neon floorboards, LED windshield washers and valve-stems caps, Super Big-Gulp cup-holder,AC/DC inverter for espresso machine, heated seats with back massager,hands-free cellular adapter, GPS navigation system<hr></blockquote>
Hahah!
02-14-2002, 08:36 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Larry Parker:
<strong>look into moriss dampers! koni and bilsteins are NOT the only options
<a href="http://www.morissdampers.com" target="_blank">www.morissdampers.com</a></strong><hr></blockquote>They "look" very nice. How much is a full set for the 944, $3K? The main thing I would have against these components is service. Morris Dampers isn't exactly a household term in the automotive world. Who's to say they'll even be around in a year or two?
<strong>look into moriss dampers! koni and bilsteins are NOT the only options
<a href="http://www.morissdampers.com" target="_blank">www.morissdampers.com</a></strong><hr></blockquote>They "look" very nice. How much is a full set for the 944, $3K? The main thing I would have against these components is service. Morris Dampers isn't exactly a household term in the automotive world. Who's to say they'll even be around in a year or two?
02-14-2002, 11:52 PM
#14
Race Car
Anyone,
Do Bilstein offer a strut with ride height adjustment for the 951..?
Will the Paragon RHA kit fit factory Koni yellow struts...?
The parts manager at my nearest dealer, (951 owner and racer), located a set of the Koni discontinued struts. He says dealers all over the country have them still, took him 20 minutes to find me a pair.
I get mechanic's shop price, so they cost me $186.00 each, when added together and averaged, (right and left prices differ by a few $)..
I'd buy the RHA kit from Paragon, if they'd work with these struts.
While I'm not looking to lower the car, right now, it actually is too low, the a-arms angle is slightly "uphill" to the balljoint, and my new splitter is in danger.....!
Do Bilstein offer a strut with ride height adjustment for the 951..?
Will the Paragon RHA kit fit factory Koni yellow struts...?
The parts manager at my nearest dealer, (951 owner and racer), located a set of the Koni discontinued struts. He says dealers all over the country have them still, took him 20 minutes to find me a pair.
I get mechanic's shop price, so they cost me $186.00 each, when added together and averaged, (right and left prices differ by a few $)..
I'd buy the RHA kit from Paragon, if they'd work with these struts.
While I'm not looking to lower the car, right now, it actually is too low, the a-arms angle is slightly "uphill" to the balljoint, and my new splitter is in danger.....!
02-15-2002, 12:40 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by fletch:
<strong>Koni gets a lot of press here, I think it best not to get into my opinions on why.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think koni get a lot of press here because it is the only steet performance damper option for the 1987+ cars.
Edit- Skip, when are the Koni 2817 shocks going to be up on Paragon-Products.com?
<strong>Koni gets a lot of press here, I think it best not to get into my opinions on why.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think koni get a lot of press here because it is the only steet performance damper option for the 1987+ cars.
Edit- Skip, when are the Koni 2817 shocks going to be up on Paragon-Products.com?