Adam Richman

I'll admit his sheer number of posts is irritating but they did provide for ample discussion - probably because he never revisited them. If that was it, I kinda agree - probation would be better than a ban. Now if this is a joke, then I vote for the ban.

Tabor

No where in the Rennlist Charter does it say you can not post threads about making out in your car. On the old rennlist, their was one thread about having sex in you 944. No one got banned for that.

Personally, I am outraged over Craig getting banned. I spent money to become a rennlist member. I read the charter to see what I was getting into. Now I see that the charter means nothing. I will think long and hard about renewing my membership. The only reason I may renew my membership is security so that I don't get banned!

Thaddeus

I saw it coming... not because Craig was doing anything much wrong, but because of all the intolerant posters who worked out on him all the time. I'm willing to bet the moderator got some complaint email from somebody.

I would like the moderator to clarify (1) if Craig got banned, and (2) what the reasons were. I make this request as a dues paying Rennlist member (even though it seems I will never get an email account here although I ask and ask).

Thaddeus

Kierf - ¿§?

Is this a community, a place where people can meet other Porsche enthusiasts? Where people can exchange ideas or experiences, whether it be about their personal lives or regarding their car. Or is this just a place where you only go to ask a question and leave?

The VW Vortex had the same problem with off topic posts. The admins created an off topic forum, but it became under great debate. A) Do we leave the forum there? Or B) Do we remove it? I said leave it because they are a 'Volkswagen community.' If you do not want this to become a 'Porsche community', than remove the off topic posts, ban those who step out of line. Though, it could bring a negative connotation to this board. Why would people want to come here? They can find the same information elsewhere and have the freedom to speak their mind.

When I do finally get my 951, I want to join a 'Porsche community'. Not just a place where you stand up, ask one question and sit down.

-Kierf.
--'79 Prelude.
--preludeparts.com

slevy951

Maybe John should post his viewpoint on this issue. If, indeed, Craig got booted.

IMO, Craig was/is pesty at worst. Not worth banning him over it. And the "make out" post, while not really suited for a family atmosphere, was not "R" rated.

M2C......

Scott
'86 951

Greg Hammond

We speak without knowing if Craig got any warning from Rennlist regarding his VERY numerous "off-topic" posts and often-pointless banterings about all things Porsche and non-Porsche. Before we start jumping up and down about the Charter and trying to view the impact on the 1st Amendment, lets hear both sides of the story first.

Personally, everytime I read one of Craig's posts, I got a little chuckle. What is NOT to chuckle about is that he posted on average 15 times a day, with 2 or more being new threads that had no bearing on Porsche topicality. If he was warned, and was subsequently banned - I won't miss him. *much*

Greg

klbporsche

I'm mixed on the issue. As you know, I am fairly new to posting on this board. As you don't know, I have been reading postings on the board for months. I was a reader/poster on Pelican Parts and decided to end my relationship to the board because of numerous off-topic/lude/crude and otherwise useless postings. I am not one who would like to ban someone unless the offenses were really bad. As far as this issue, off-topic is fine as long as it will not overtly offend someone. Craig is young and new to the Porsche world and maybe we, as posters, have failed to educate him on the respect that most porsche owners have for each other. Some of his postings offended me but some were amusing. In the end we have to remember that this is not a public BBS as it is owned by Rennlist and if they do not want someone on their site, they don't have to have them here. I have an idea! Why don't we just treat each other as if we were actually speaking face-to-face.

Black_951

If you will remember, Craig did change his habits after a few of us jumped on him for posting unneccesary vulgar language on here. I think it was after he got something in the mail that was poor condition.

Point is, when Craig is seriously warned by people (and not just flamed) he changes. None of the "respectable" people on this board ever publicly said "Craig, no more off topic or stupid posts". If one of them would have said that I believe he would have tried to do better.

Except none of you respectable guys really believe he did anything wrong do you?

klbporsche

I concur! Let's help the kid out.

Adam Richman

Far be it from me to assume respectability but I don't think Craig is guilty of anything more than excessive posting (and I can't get that pissed about that). Sure, I sat here many a time and thought "geez, another n posts by Craig" but I usually participated at some point just as most of us did and as I said his posts usually lead to some good discussion (ironic ain't it).

Back to the earlier comment that this might be a joke, if so, that is an absolute waste of our time - if not Hmmmmmmm (a la Marge Simpson).

Matt O.

Actually (and I'm not calling myself respectable), I emailed him twice and I know of at least one other person who emailed him, asking him politely to be careful of what he posts. If I posted everything that was on my mind about my car or life or whatever, I'd post 20 times a day, and if everyone did that, that would be 600+ posts a day.

The way I see it, I'm not angry with Rennlist for banning him if they gave him fair warning. Maybe 3 strikes and you're out. But without knowing all the facts behind the scenes I do know he never responded to me to say "thanks, I'll try" (not that he was obligated to) or anyone else I know for that matter, he simply responded by posting another topic such as making out in your '44. Granted, that's not rated R or X and to be honest with you I chuckled inside because of the fact it was such a weird post, but I don't think he should have been banned for that post.

Again though, it all depends upon how many and IF he received warnings from John or Rennlist moderators/admins. I don't use any other Porsche board, other then Rennlist because of the quality of discussion here, and the all around respect each other is given (at least in the 924/944/968 forum). I think this is because of the general mentality and attitude of your "typical" 944 owner. We aren't snobby (996 owners??) like you sometimes find over at 911Turbo.com.

Anyway, I wouldn't be too against giving him a second chance if he just kept his cool. Don't need to post everything that is on your mind, all the time. An occassional "OMG YAYAYAYAYAY I LOVE PORSCHE" is fine by me, if on occassion. Because, well, I do like my car alot to and can relate. Like many have mentioned he's 16 and back when I was 17 when Rennlist was Porschelist and it was emails, I think I sent off a couple of "I love my 924S, how do I get more power?" type of posts.

Back to school work,
Matt

MadMax

It is my belief that this is probably a joke perpetrated on this board by Craig. He is most likely doing it to see how much support he can draw for his 'right' to post on the board. The truth is...he doesn't have a right to post on this board and neither do I. It is privately owned and a member or poster can be banned for any reason deemed necessary by the owner, that's the law not opinion. That is one of the ways that BBS owners can maintain control of their BBS. Haven't you ever wondered why you can post here without joining Rennlist? It minimizes the necessity for a more complicated "Terms and Conditions" statement for BBS/Rennlist membership. If you aren't paying for the privilege you DON'T HAVE ANY RIGHTS TO IT!

Whether or not Craig has been banned is of little importance to me. I am the other person that Matt Olde spoke of that had emailed Craig privately asking him to temper some of his posts. One of the reasons we rarely, if ever, see a Moderator on this BBS is because it usually moderates itself. Just log on to Pelican's BBS if you don't believe me. MOST of the posters to this BBS behave in a civil and generally respectful manner to each other. Craig consistently proved the assumption that most young men are too immature to own a high performance automobile (myself included when I was his age). Kudos to all you young guys out there that are the exception to the rule. He couldn't even control himself enough to have some basic consideration for the other people that post on this board.

He has only been on this BBS since July and he has posted over 300 times! There were at least 5 different occasions where I posted questions just to have them end up on the 2nd page (on the same day) because Craig had posted 9 separate topics. It wouldn't have bothered me except that most of them were of the "OMG OMG OMG OMG OGM, I love my Porsche" variety.

I have received a great deal of technical assistance from this board and the email lists. I attempt to return the favor by keeping my posts reasonable and as helpful as I can. Craig's posts, simply put, are always about Craig. I can count on one hand how many posts he has made that answered someone's question (correctly). Flame on me if you must but if he is banned, I am glad. If he isn't and this is a joke, he should be banned for once again wasting everyone's time and the resources of this BBS.

Obviously, it's just my $.02

Regards,
Max

Black_951

You can reach him usually anytime after school hours on AOL at Craig944x. I have his correct email, but don't think I should post it.

Tabor

But I am paying for that privilege. And as far as I am concerned I am paying for Craigs privileges too. I say this because rennlist was advertised with this document. And as far as I am concerned, the second they violate it, they have lied to me for money.

MadMax

Tabor you are correct in that you are paying for a membership to Rennlist. However, posting on this BBS is NOT a part of your paid membership. Posting on the BBS is open to anyone whether they are a paying Rennlist member or not. Read Sections 4 & 5 of the Charter:

Also, here is some of the fine print at the bottom of the charter (all of this written by lawyers in an attempt to set out rules while reserving the express right to change them at anytime, without notice or recourse)

All of the above listed terms are SUBJECTIVE in nature and were chosen by Rennlist's attorneys specifically for their inherent ambiguity. Meaning that whatever or whoever a moderator or monitor of this BBS deems unsatisfactory can be banned or removed from the BBS with no recourse. The Rennlist charter is not a lie; Rennlist has just maintained its legal right to alter or edit the BBS in any manner it sees fit. Without such a broad and open-ended disclaimer/charter Rennlist could be subject to possible lawsuits.

If Craig was really banned I am sure he still has access to other portions of Rennlist's website but even if he doesn't, it is Rennlist's legal right.

Your membership dues don't BUY rights to the BBS and even if they did, your membership wouldn't extend to another person just because you want them to.

I am not meaning to come off harsh Tabor and I know it seems unfair, I am just trying to shed a little light on the legal interpretation of the charter. Keeping mind that my interpretation (as is the case with most legal documents) is NOT the only interpretation and may not be the correct one.

I guess you have to laugh at the circumstances...if Craig is really banned he is still firing up this BBS and he isn't even posting anymore. Unbelievable.

Regards,
Max