Converting 944 to manual windows
11-19-2001, 05:13 PM
#1
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Converting 944 to manual windows
Anyone ever done this? Looking at parts diagrams it seems easy enough. Are there any pitfalls I should look out for? I do just need to replace the regulators and associated hardware, right? I don't need to do anything crazy like replace my windows. Right?
11-19-2001, 05:41 PM
#2
Hey Tabor,
I have actually been planning to do this and yes it is extremely do-able. I had actually tracked down a pair of manual window regulators and interior panels from an 87 924S, which is good since I have an 88. The guy who had them promised them to me and that he would send them as soon as he got my check, then sold them out from under me, so I haven't actually managed to do the conversion.
In any event, I have a file someplace on the network that describes another listers attempt to do the same. Worked pretty well excepting the scraped knuckles.
I'll post the text as soon as I find the file.
I have actually been planning to do this and yes it is extremely do-able. I had actually tracked down a pair of manual window regulators and interior panels from an 87 924S, which is good since I have an 88. The guy who had them promised them to me and that he would send them as soon as he got my check, then sold them out from under me, so I haven't actually managed to do the conversion.
In any event, I have a file someplace on the network that describes another listers attempt to do the same. Worked pretty well excepting the scraped knuckles.
I'll post the text as soon as I find the file.
11-19-2001, 05:45 PM
#3
Here you go Tabor, hope this helps:
Hello again,
Seeing as I've had these parts sitting in my basement for way too long now I
finally decided to get around to installing them. My previous attempt was
thwarted by an inattentive member of my family who drove over one of my metal
window guides laying on the garage floor. Since I had a perfectly good guide
sitting in the door of my parts car I had no more excuses.
So with the help of Mike Kehr, we set off to downgrade my car to manual
windows. I'll assume you can figure out how to remove everything in order to
get to the installation part. The first order of business was to figure out
the proper orientation for the regulators. Both driver and passenger side
regulators will bolt into either door so a distinction needs to be made
between the two. The easiest way to figure out which one goes where is by the
small notch on the large gear of the regulator. The notch acts as a stop for
the window and thus goes on the bottom. The other hint is that the correct
side's regulator should have two of the black wheels on the arms of the
lifter facing the outside of the door.
Now comes the fun part of actually installing these SOB's. After many failed
attempts, and many pinched fingers, the proper method for installation was
determined. First place the regulator inside the door, with the lifter set at
about halfway up or down, whichever you prefer. Set the window inside the
door. You have to install the windows from the inside of the door otherwise I
really don't know what will happen, going from the inside works though. Get
the window square in between the rubber guides on either side and have your
helper hold the window in place. Grab the regulator and slide the black
wheels into the guides on the window. With your helper still holding the
window in place, install as many bolts possible for the regulator.
Big note here: Not sure about early 944's, but on my car, there were two
mounting options for the crank side of the regulator. One position was
pointed slightly upward, the other slightly downward. My guess is the change
was made so that the manual windows would fit both cars with early and later
style dashes. Note: if you use the upper position on a car with the late
style dash, you will not be able to change the position of the windo once you
close the door (yes I found this out on my way home). So early dash, upper
position, late dash, lower position. We had used the upper position b/c we
were referencing the 924 shop manuals and it looked right.
Once you have at least two bolts holding the regulator in place, you can
install the secondary guide on the door. You may have to crank the window up
or down a bit to get it lined up but you shouldn't need to move things too
much. Once that guide is in place, install and tighten all bolts for the
regulator but leave the bolts for the other guide loose enough so that it can
still shift a bit. Raise the window all the way, push up on the bottom of the
window until it seats correctly in the seals, then tighten those guide bolts.
Everything should work correctly now. Some WD-40 on the rubber guides in my
doors had the window going up and down much smoother.
The rest of the procedure is boring so I won't take up any more list space
with that. Feel free to email me with any questions, as long as they don't
have the words 924 and AMC in them. This is as close as I get to any 924
based knowledge.
Joe Jackson '86 951
Seeing as I've had these parts sitting in my basement for way too long now I
finally decided to get around to installing them. My previous attempt was
thwarted by an inattentive member of my family who drove over one of my metal
window guides laying on the garage floor. Since I had a perfectly good guide
sitting in the door of my parts car I had no more excuses.
So with the help of Mike Kehr, we set off to downgrade my car to manual
windows. I'll assume you can figure out how to remove everything in order to
get to the installation part. The first order of business was to figure out
the proper orientation for the regulators. Both driver and passenger side
regulators will bolt into either door so a distinction needs to be made
between the two. The easiest way to figure out which one goes where is by the
small notch on the large gear of the regulator. The notch acts as a stop for
the window and thus goes on the bottom. The other hint is that the correct
side's regulator should have two of the black wheels on the arms of the
lifter facing the outside of the door.
Now comes the fun part of actually installing these SOB's. After many failed
attempts, and many pinched fingers, the proper method for installation was
determined. First place the regulator inside the door, with the lifter set at
about halfway up or down, whichever you prefer. Set the window inside the
door. You have to install the windows from the inside of the door otherwise I
really don't know what will happen, going from the inside works though. Get
the window square in between the rubber guides on either side and have your
helper hold the window in place. Grab the regulator and slide the black
wheels into the guides on the window. With your helper still holding the
window in place, install as many bolts possible for the regulator.
Big note here: Not sure about early 944's, but on my car, there were two
mounting options for the crank side of the regulator. One position was
pointed slightly upward, the other slightly downward. My guess is the change
was made so that the manual windows would fit both cars with early and later
style dashes. Note: if you use the upper position on a car with the late
style dash, you will not be able to change the position of the windo once you
close the door (yes I found this out on my way home). So early dash, upper
position, late dash, lower position. We had used the upper position b/c we
were referencing the 924 shop manuals and it looked right.
Once you have at least two bolts holding the regulator in place, you can
install the secondary guide on the door. You may have to crank the window up
or down a bit to get it lined up but you shouldn't need to move things too
much. Once that guide is in place, install and tighten all bolts for the
regulator but leave the bolts for the other guide loose enough so that it can
still shift a bit. Raise the window all the way, push up on the bottom of the
window until it seats correctly in the seals, then tighten those guide bolts.
Everything should work correctly now. Some WD-40 on the rubber guides in my
doors had the window going up and down much smoother.
The rest of the procedure is boring so I won't take up any more list space
with that. Feel free to email me with any questions, as long as they don't
have the words 924 and AMC in them. This is as close as I get to any 924
based knowledge.
Joe Jackson '86 951
11-19-2001, 06:21 PM
#5
See if you can't find them used. Ian, oops, I mean the guy who was going to sell me the set for my car wanted $150 for both with interior panels. Of course again they were used, so who knows how long they would work. I am going to check with him again. Since I have to order a manual steering intermediate shaft from him, I'll check then.
I kind of need to find a drivers side door at the same time (maybe with manual window aleady) since my window track is starting to break loose at the bottom.
The joys of old cars.
I kind of need to find a drivers side door at the same time (maybe with manual window aleady) since my window track is starting to break loose at the bottom.
The joys of old cars.
11-19-2001, 07:40 PM
#6
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tabor, out of curiosity, why would you want to go to mechanical window operation? my 951 is the first car i've ever owned with electric windows and now i will never be able to go back. the weight savings isn't that spectacular getting rid of 2 motors and it just isn't cool to have to unbuckle your seat belt and lay over the passenger seat to roll down your window when a hot blonde is giving you the eye from the sidewalk.
11-19-2001, 07:45 PM
#7
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1. The electric window regulators are prone to failure, and cost WAY MORE than the manual ones.
2. I never roll down my windows, except at drive through restruants. I am deathly allergic to bees/hornets, so it just isn't a good idea for me to drive around with the windows down. And I will stop, as soon as I get the AC fixed.
3. My passanger side window needs serviceing, and I may aswell convert now.
4. No more electrical issues to worry about. Do you know that thoes window switches cost $38 a piece from Porsche? I DO!
5. Weight savings.
Edit - Also, I plan to make some 993 RS style door panels out of fibreglass to aid in the weight savings.
2. I never roll down my windows, except at drive through restruants. I am deathly allergic to bees/hornets, so it just isn't a good idea for me to drive around with the windows down. And I will stop, as soon as I get the AC fixed.
3. My passanger side window needs serviceing, and I may aswell convert now.
4. No more electrical issues to worry about. Do you know that thoes window switches cost $38 a piece from Porsche? I DO!
5. Weight savings.
Edit - Also, I plan to make some 993 RS style door panels out of fibreglass to aid in the weight savings.
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11-19-2001, 09:29 PM
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just dont let your love for the ozone layer convince you to switch to r134a when you get that ac fixed! r12 rules! (almost twice the specific energy for gas->vapor transition plus it doesn't leak)
11-19-2001, 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by bs:
<STRONG>just dont let your love for the ozone layer convince you to switch to r134a when you get that ac fixed! r12 rules! (almost twice the specific energy for gas->vapor transition plus it doesn't leak)</STRONG>
<STRONG>just dont let your love for the ozone layer convince you to switch to r134a when you get that ac fixed! r12 rules! (almost twice the specific energy for gas->vapor transition plus it doesn't leak)</STRONG>
Next time, why don't you try matching the strong opinion to a subject you vaguely know something about? It usually works better that way.
a) r12 does leak from our cars, inevitably and unavoidably, unless you get the hoses upgraded to the barrier type.
b) r134a conversions work perfectly well in our cars; mine is converted and it is icy (and we actually get temps above 75 more than twice a year in the south bay, too, so I actually use it.)
c) For the environmentally unconcerned/redneck/just pig ignorant demographic, the choice for r134a has been made easier on the cost-per-recharge basis. Not to recommend conversion would imply economic as well as scientific illiteracy.
-Mark 86 944 NA
11-19-2001, 11:05 PM
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Personally, I wouln not waste the effort in changing out the window regulators on the car. My 1983 has had no problems (except switches that need cleaned once in a while) with the electric mechanisms. You may save a few pounds, but I'd bet it is under 10.
As for the R134A comment. I converted mine over earlier this year. I did not change the expansion valve or the R/D, nor did I flush the system out. Just dropped the "conversion" oil in and charged it up with 24 oz. of gas (after evacuation of course). The result.....the systems works just as well as it did on R12.......once it leaks out again (like the R12 used to), I just pay another $4.00 and drop a new can in. The whole R12 thing is a fiasco, and not worth farting with at all. If you have a leaky system, convert it and be done with the R12........if you don't you can drop big $$$$ for no reason at all.
As for the R134A comment. I converted mine over earlier this year. I did not change the expansion valve or the R/D, nor did I flush the system out. Just dropped the "conversion" oil in and charged it up with 24 oz. of gas (after evacuation of course). The result.....the systems works just as well as it did on R12.......once it leaks out again (like the R12 used to), I just pay another $4.00 and drop a new can in. The whole R12 thing is a fiasco, and not worth farting with at all. If you have a leaky system, convert it and be done with the R12........if you don't you can drop big $$$$ for no reason at all.
11-20-2001, 01:21 AM
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Originally posted by bs:
<STRONG>just dont let your love for the ozone layer convince you to switch to r134a when you get that ac fixed! r12 rules! (almost twice the specific energy for gas->vapor transition plus it doesn't leak)</STRONG>
<STRONG>just dont let your love for the ozone layer convince you to switch to r134a when you get that ac fixed! r12 rules! (almost twice the specific energy for gas->vapor transition plus it doesn't leak)</STRONG>
11-20-2001, 06:42 AM
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By the time you add the cranks, I doubt you'll save more than 5lbs total, but like you said, the weight's not the issue. Since you want to get rid of them anyway, then even 1lb is just the icing on the cake.
I had an '89 Integra, and never missed having electric windows OR locks on it- I almost wish the 951 had come w/manual for both too. If it would've saved several total lbs, I'd have been all for it, but, they're already there- I'd probably end up doing more harm than good, if I tried to convert.
BTW, does anyone know how much a 951 sunroof motor weighs? I HATE these sunroofs- they have to be the stupidist, most ridiculous sunroofs ever made. Power- so I can raise the back of it 2.5"- gee, thanks Porsche- what would I do w/out that? They should have made them slide back if they were going to be electric, or, made them about 10lbs lighter, if manually removable- the damn things weigh 19lbs! I'm going to order a carbon fibre one soon, but not one that stays put (bolted in place)- I like to be able to open mine- that's why I'm curious about the weight of the motor. If it would save a few more pounds, I'd like to go manual- I know those little metal boxes that hold the plastic arms (the arms that lift the back up) would have to weigh at least 2lbs each, and they are at the very top of the car- The CF lid will weigh under 4 lbs, and if the boxes weigh about 4lbs total, then that would be almost 20lbs off the very top of the car, plus, whatever the motor weighs... I just wish someone would come out w/some lightweight tinted lexan or something- glass is almost as heavy as the regular panel... Any input?
Oh, Tabor, I know that some places like Auto Lock, sell conversion kits to make manual windows electric, and they're suppossed to be simple- I know they've never said you have to change the glass, so, on the flip side, it SHOULD just be the exact opposite, and very simple...
I had an '89 Integra, and never missed having electric windows OR locks on it- I almost wish the 951 had come w/manual for both too. If it would've saved several total lbs, I'd have been all for it, but, they're already there- I'd probably end up doing more harm than good, if I tried to convert.
BTW, does anyone know how much a 951 sunroof motor weighs? I HATE these sunroofs- they have to be the stupidist, most ridiculous sunroofs ever made. Power- so I can raise the back of it 2.5"- gee, thanks Porsche- what would I do w/out that? They should have made them slide back if they were going to be electric, or, made them about 10lbs lighter, if manually removable- the damn things weigh 19lbs! I'm going to order a carbon fibre one soon, but not one that stays put (bolted in place)- I like to be able to open mine- that's why I'm curious about the weight of the motor. If it would save a few more pounds, I'd like to go manual- I know those little metal boxes that hold the plastic arms (the arms that lift the back up) would have to weigh at least 2lbs each, and they are at the very top of the car- The CF lid will weigh under 4 lbs, and if the boxes weigh about 4lbs total, then that would be almost 20lbs off the very top of the car, plus, whatever the motor weighs... I just wish someone would come out w/some lightweight tinted lexan or something- glass is almost as heavy as the regular panel... Any input?
Oh, Tabor, I know that some places like Auto Lock, sell conversion kits to make manual windows electric, and they're suppossed to be simple- I know they've never said you have to change the glass, so, on the flip side, it SHOULD just be the exact opposite, and very simple...
11-20-2001, 10:11 AM
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R12 eats a hole in the Ozone and R134a just forms a poisonous gas up there. Which is better. I think we are all being sold a bill of goods about this so-called safe R134a.
11-21-2001, 07:25 AM
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anyone want to pay shipping, I have 2 perfectly good window winders (manual) that I took out of the race car (don't open windows at all as it's no allowed at the race track, all you need to do is pay for postage from the UK.