Heres 30...Any one notice how faster on the street, doesn't equal faster on autox track even within Porsche. Check the results from any PCA event, and compare S3 (stock 944 & 924s) to S7 (S2, Turbo & 968) the difference is minimal to the point where the classes could be combined. In my area if either car had a slight edge it would be the n/a (research before flame, I have numbers), although on any other kind of track, or street for that matter,the n/a is of course the last one home.
Road & Track can also be quoted from it's 1986 5 Porsche (full line)comparison whereas the 951 was "like a hunting arrow" to the 930's "flung battle axe", Yet most of us still give the turbo 911 it's just respect.
Guess you don't need the Japanese auto industry to see that any vehicle has it's strengths and weeknesses.

 

One point. The 944 especialy the n/a and even the turbo in many cases does not eat the import tuners for lunch. hell just look at the MR2 track cars or a number of hondas etc on the street who for far less money than it costs to track your 944 will easily burn your doors off on the street and in a few cases on the track too.

 

hmmmm... how to reply...

About: "if you are having such problems with Porsche..."

Well, to be frank it's got nothing to do with the cars themselves, just the rampant owner posturing about how high maintenance costs are somehow justified, and refusing to connect these maintenance costs with mediocre engineering.

If only people would be honest and state that they own and maintain these cars mostly for nebulous personal reasons, and not because they are dramatically superior to other vehicles or, (cough) that they offer superior engineering.


Perhaps the "true" Porsches, the 911, 928(!), Boxster, etc. may better showcase the obvious history, talent, and capabilities of the Porsche engineers, but it seems to me that the 944 was a car born from compromise.

Without a doubt, the principles behind the design were visionary, but the execution was a series of band-aids and compromises.

But, that was the whole point of this car wasn't it? It was never intended to be a world-beater! It was designed to be an "everyman's" Porsche. A way for the masses to own part of the legend.

To the credit of the Porsche (Audi, etc.) engineers, they managed to save a much-maligned design from oblivion with the introduction of the 944, while working under economic pressures to keep costs to a minimum. The outcome was obvious; Porsche did not have the economies of scale or R&D budget to fully support an $18k vehicle initiative.

We now live with the results, a Herculean effort by the engineers to incrementally upgrade and tweak the design to address shortcomings, while being economically tied to the current tooling and design. It must have been incredibly frustrating for some of those involved.


Bottom line? Most of us own a 944 -BECAUSE IT IS A PORSCHE- not because we honestly believe it is a superior car, certainly not for superior engineering.

A few enlightened souls have had the ***** to come clean and admit that IS a purely personal thing and they are willing to live with the faults simply for what the car represents to them personally.

 

Wow......THIS has been an interesting thread....There have been a lot of good points made on all sides, but the question will never be fully answered. In a separate thread, I made a statement about Renegade Hybrids and the fact that, in essence, they simply supply a product that all of us wish we had...MORE CUBES!! Neither good nor bad. A four banger has its limits if it is to be reliable over the long run. Too small, and it has limited torque. Too large and it requires artifical methods of reducing (never eliminating) vibration. If Porsche had designed a 6 rather than a four, the engine would have had a lot more potential from the get-go, and not needed countershafts. True, there were compromises along the way, the same fault many of us attribute to American Iron. One would say that the original 944 engine design was 1/2 the 928. However, with modern casting methods making it a bank-and-a-half of 928 would have been lottle problem. There is room under the hood with some finageling. So, the engine was a compromise.
The design of the body is, IMHO, inspired and relatively timeless. While my '84 was being loaded on the truck for transport across country, one neighbor mentioned that it must be nice to be able to afford a $30k to $40 k car. Not bad for a 17 year old car with a 24 year old design.

There are a considerable number of current imports that can, with no effort, outrun and outhandle a 944. That's progress. My secret is not to engage in street racing in any way, shape or form. Just smile and let the other guy guess how bad he would have been tromped. The average car owner thinks ALL cars with the Porsche crest is devestationgly fast and will trash anything on the road. I won't enlighten them. Remember...Even a fool can appear wise as long as he keeps his mouth shut...

Cheers!!

Bob S.

 

Since you obviously have the flame proof undies firmly affixed, (or highly insulated au Canada) I guess it's time for another shot. (Yes, I know the bait is out. Chomp, Bite)

Compared to modern rice cars, well, there is a lot to be said for them. The part that rice advocates and others totally missed with Porsche, is that they are the ones LATE to the party. About 15 years or so late. Take about any mid 80's rice buggy and put it up against the 951, 928S, or 911 and no contest. Expensive, yes, it is after all, 15 year old technology. BTW, how many ricers per capita of the period are still on the road I wonder. My brother had a 280ZX, his wife thought it was cool, he looked at it from a maintainence and performance pov. They get rid of that crate within a year.

I'll toss another dead cow over the walls, like it or not, Porsche really does have it's roots in VW and Auto Union (Audi). Where do you think many of the 356 parts came from. The 901 (nee 911) and 902 (nee 912) were originally considered to be heresy among the cognescenti of the marque because of its lack of purity of the line. (Some Germans seem really hung up on that. Adolph?? Don't bother with replying, I'm over half German.)

As for my part, I like this car. It is a choice I make. Everyman Tapicoa or Teutonic engineering. It would sound to me like you are having a problem with your car. Did you have a prepurchase inspection done? Do you do your own work? I also like Italian cars, but while fun to drive, they are maintainence hogs in general.

If there is any weak point in these 15+ year old cars it's the switch to aluminum A arms and having a rubber center clutch disk in the 951. There are things that even Porsche admits could have been done better but they aren't the only marque to release a developmental car on the public (remember the Fiero?) Perhaps the early B210's??

The point of number 33 (34?) post in the trek to 100- speed costs money, how fast do you really want to go, or was it- would you like saki with that, or maybe a good example of the 944 is no bigger problem than any other almost exotic car, whew, it's safe to venture out again. I think I'll go subject some bovine flesh to extreme temps, pop a cool refreshing alcoholic beverage and enjoy the sunshine a bit. Lord knows, you guys see too little of that.

Peace from the sunny South

 

Amen, Dave... I have been touting the "Humble" roots of the marque for years. And, you are totally right. There are few mid eighties Japanese cars on the road, but there are quite a few German vehicles of the same age. Owners of German cars tend to care for them, Owners of Japanese cars tend to flog them to death, and they do die. The history of Porsche, wheterh we like it or not is "incremental innovation". SOmetimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Once again, that's life. Like you, I love how the car looks and handles. Personally, I don't really care for gobs more HP. I look at my 944 as a long distance runner rather than a sprinter. It works for me...

Cheers!

Bob S. (Yes, still wearing Nomex)

 

Hey Bob- Nice to know that there is someone else with Nomex undies and a cavalier disregard for the attitudes of the great unwashed, it truly is a refreshing oasis in this cultural desert , maybe I should get a Honda. No, Wait.... it passed.

If new2944 thinks that we waterpumpers are in left field about the engineering on our cars, just let him say it in a 911 forum. Those guys are real fanatics, (but as a Porsche owner I mean that in the nicest way.) I would about bet the farm on over 100 replies and not many of them nice nor complimentary, however very factual.

As for the rice cars, they do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Has anyone checked just how many new ideas come from the far east? Yeah, yeah, they're in F1 now, but F1 has run for how long? And just where were the Toyotas and Hondas for the past 30 years? How many times has a rice car run in Le Mans in the past 30 years. I'm being generous, giving them 15 years time in which they rebuilt the factories we obliterated with Boeing products.

As for the interior quality, I would rather have an engine/trans that is seriously stout and well made than a plastic **** that won't break but my engine is toast in 50k miles. Racing does improve the breed. Most car companies know this. Again, the far east is a johnny come lately here.

Guess I'll put on the nomex scarf and gloves, no the grill is fine, so was the steak.

Enjoying my German car,

 

I own a 944 because it's a Porsche?

No, I own a 944 because it handles, looks, stops, sounds good. There's also room for improvement in the chasis for better handling, and braking for cheap (and more power on the 951). These are truly overbuilt cars, much like other Porsches, or German cars. However most of all, I own this 944 because of the way it makes me feel when I'md driving it. After the first time I drove one, it was over for me, perhaps you don't see that, and that's too bad for you.

A lot of teens can barely afford these cars, and they buy them only because it's a Porsche, that really is too bad. The 944's primery objective sure wasn't so people could show off with them. It's a very well balanced car, that's incredibly fun to drive, and durable(Mine has never given me a problem, in the last 2.5+ years, 56+k miles I've owned it).

Infact, the fact that it's a Porsche is bad in some aspects, like insurance, (too)much attention at times, maintenance/parts, etc. And if you don't enjoy the car for the right reasons, you really are wasting money.
Ahmet

 

Let's take Italian cars as an example. First item- Lamborghini, they make more than fast cars, stay tuned for the rest of the story.

Scuderia Ferrari's main thrust in life is racing. Pure and simple. They make cars so they can go race. The technology developed is carried over to very limited production cars so they can go race some more. Pretty neat cycle. Ever look inside one at the little ***** and electrical dodads? Fiat parts bin stuff much of the time these days. Porsche does a similar routine with VW/Audi. Look at Alfa Romeo. They followed a similar course to Ferrari but were aiming their products at the masses. Fiat is, in simplest terms, an Italian Auto Union. Each of these cars can be expensive to repair and maintain.

The rest of the story- Lambo's cash cow is farm equipment. Yup, they're an Italian Massey Furgeson.

Strange stuff these days

 

I must say I'm heartened to see some honesty creep out amongst the chatter.

Yes, Dave951M, I've had problems from the start of the delivery of my 944. The thermostat stuck and then the head gasket popped (I didn't let it overheat, though), then PS rack started leaking!

But, this was a car that was religiously maintained by the P.O. at an authorized Porsche dealer, and holy crap, do I have a stack of receipts to prove it! Luckily the P.O. forked over for most of the "common" bugs; motor mounts, water pump, a-arms, clutch, steering rack (dead again), transmission, and innumerable little bugs

Oddly enough, this chap had the same sort-of "c'est la vie" attitude to the big $ that he had forked over to the dealer over the past years, weird.

I have to admit, I was appalled when I added up the totals for his 7 years of 944 ownership. The totals for the 944 maintenance alone exceeded TRIPLE the purchase price and maintenance, for my '84 Supra I've had for 7 years!!

I did all my own work on the Supra, limited to: pads, 2 rotors, water pump, and a clutch, but still, almost $10k on 944 MAINTENENCE over 7 years???

Keep in mind, all the stuff he did, other than a $1.5k tranny rebuild, were common, ordinary 944 maintenance items.

Can you see where I'm coming from now?


How sad to make all those potential 944 owners reading this **** themselves (sorry) when the reality of the situation comes out.

 

Sounds to me like a lemon. Every make has them, including Japanese cars. I personally know 944 and 911 owners in the PCA with years of experience with nowhere near that kind of expense. Maybe time to make a track car

 

Well this thread has certainly been entertaining to read. Guess it's time to add my .02. If new2944 thinks maintenance on a 944 is bad, he should spend some time talking with 911 owners. Especially mid-70s 911s with the 2.5 liter engine. And yet, somehow, we Porsche owners continue driving, maintaining, fixing, and ENJOYING these cars from the little factory in Stuttgart (or in the case of the 944, Neckarsulm).

Yes, I will agree that maintenance is high. I too have driven many Toyotas and other Japanese cars with very little maintenance or repair costs. I have three today. A '90 Camry for my teen-age daughter, a '99 Avalon that I use for business, and a '01 Solara convertible that my wife "had to have". Toyota and other far east manufacturers have built their brand and their reputation on quality and low maintenance. Yes most of them push like bull-dozers but they were not designed to be racers or autoXers. They were built to be affordable, comfortable, reliable transportation.

To own a Porsche is to own a part of an incredible racing heritage. Much like owning a Ferrari. Have you ever investigated maintenance costs on a mid '80s 308 GTS? 30k mile service will cost $3 grand with no unexpected repair items. Valves are adjusted by way of shims. Water pump is replaced as a maintenance item. Ridiculous? Perhaps. But again, the Ferrari was never intended to be daily transportation for the masses.

Another point to consider.....
If everyone in the world bought cars purely on expected maintenance costs, Toyota would have a much greater market share.

Think about all the british cars that are maintenance nightmares. Talk to owners of MG, Jaguar, Triumph about reliability. Why would anyone own one? Again, each has its own "image" and mystique. If you buy an MGB, you should expect to make many repairs and be stranded on occasion by the wonderful (tongue firmly in cheek) Lucas electronics.

Everyone buys a car for different reasons. If the maintenance costs for a 944 have you questioning your purchase decision, then perhaps you should sell and buy yourself a Miata. They also have a lot of owner support, active club, and other similar owner attributes. As for me, I'm on my second 944 and am considering a third. I have enjoyed both immensely in spite of the higher than average maintenance costs.

db944
'90 944 S2 cabriolet

 

Ok, I was going to stay out of this one, but its just too tempting! I have owned 2 951 cars and a 911 over the years and my experiences have been mixed, to say the least.

The first 951 was beautiful - black on black. Mirror finish. Ahhh.... But I digress. It was a complete maintenance nightmare. I owned it before I knew how to fix these cars or had the foresight to buy the factory manuals. I spent (drum roll please) $8000 in repair bills in the first (and only) year I owned it. My wife finally put an end to it. I sold it to a friend after feeling that it was finally in good enough shape to sell. He did one DE and fried the engine. The poor guy spent 18 months rebuilding the thing and when he got done, he took it for a few test runs and the clutch disk disintigrated! His wife put a stop to it. On to the next lucky victim.

My point is that if you don't know the history of a Porsche car, you shouldn't buy it. These cars are made to be driven hard, and most of the time they are driven VERY hard. Even when well maintained, something is bound to go wrong with a car that is 13 -16 years old. If you expect to buy one and have it run like a new Honda, you are barking up the wrong tree. Be an educated buyer (or end up like I did).

The 951 I currently have has needed oil cooler seals, brake pads and a few hose clamps. I now spend every free minute working on the car, but only to increase performance and learn more about how it works. Working on my car is Zen to me - I enjoy it. If you don't, you're not only barking up the wrong tree, but you are probably in the wrong forest.

I will eventually replace the head gasket and do the rod bearings. Have I done these things before? No. But I now know the flaws of these cars and can preempt them by making the repairs a bit before they are supposed to be needed. I also have gained confidence in my wrenching abilities by doing the smaller repairs first.

Flaws - in a Porsche? You bet! I, for one, have had enough experience with 951s that I have no illusions. But I LOVE my car. I love how it looks, I love how it handles, and I love the sounds that it makes. Can I beat every other car on the street? No. Can I win every autocross that I enter? No. But the car is pure enjoyment to me. Does the racing heritage do anything for me? Not too much, but I enjoy watching Porsches win on TV. All in all, I've got a car that most people think is new, most people think is expensive, drives beyond my own personal limitations, still kicks the *** of MOST of the cars ever produced, is readily upgraded, and costs less than a new Hyundai. So if I have to fix a few things now and again I'm still FAR ahead of the game. For those of you who are complaining, you just need to decide if the game is for you! As for me, I'm hooked and plan to stay that way for a good long time.

That's my 2 1/2 cents. Enjoy!

 

Not really a lemon, just ordinary stuff, I think...

Here's a partial list from 57k miles to 114k (this year)

- rebuilt PS rack
- right front a-arm
- timing belt
- balance belt
- hood shocks
- right inner CV joint
- all 4 caliper seals
- front crank seal
- balance shaft seals
- water pump
- left inner CV joint
- front wheel bearings
- front rotors & pads
- clutch disk
- rebuild tranny/ ring & pinion
- rear rotors & pads
- left front a-arm
- oil pressure relief valve
- engine mounts
- thermo switch

From what I've read, all very typical 944 issues.

This list does not show the scheduled maintenance such as belt re-tensioning, alignments, etc.

 

Most people don't own Porsches because of the reputation behind the name. That reputation exists because the owners are willing to make the investment in cash, or in their own labor, to keep a ten, or fifteen, or twenty year old car on the road. In the current auto market, where manufacturers have to redesign their products every 3 years to keep buyers walking into the showrooms, how many could sell the same vehicle with only "incremental changes" for 12 years (944 through 968) let alone the three and a half decades and counting of the 911. A name doesn't make a car desirable, but the car makes (or keeps) the name desirable.

Dave
Son, Car, Wife...but don't tell her that she came in third.