Very Unhappy With My 944!
01-31-2002, 02:51 AM
#16
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$700 installed is cheap for a new/rebuilt steering rack and reasonable, I guess, for a good used one. You're mostly paying for labor, though. My steering rack cost me $125 + $25 shipping + $35 for tools that I hadn't acquired yet (tools you can use over again, though) + 3.5 hours + 2 skinned knuckles and a sore nose from where I dropped a wrench on myself. The way I look at it I saved $575.
The problem with the waterpump isn't so much that it fails regularly; it's that if it fails, it takes out the timing belt and causes the associated problems requiring, usually, a top end rebuild.
The problem with the waterpump isn't so much that it fails regularly; it's that if it fails, it takes out the timing belt and causes the associated problems requiring, usually, a top end rebuild.
01-31-2002, 04:21 AM
#17
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IMHO,
The 944 is a great car. I have never been in another car that struck me the same way, with the exception of a 924. But I maintain that they are not worth owning unless you do your own work. You will throw enough money down the drian with just parts.
The 944 is a great car. I have never been in another car that struck me the same way, with the exception of a 924. But I maintain that they are not worth owning unless you do your own work. You will throw enough money down the drian with just parts.
01-31-2002, 11:15 AM
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Let's try and put this in perspective.
You are talking about a 17 year old sports car, a model of car that if you have ever shopped for one you would know is one of the most used and abused cars out there.
These cars are cheap to buy, they are often bought by people who either cannot afford to maintain them or people that just do not care because they bought it cheap. when enough things break they sell it
These cars are generally driven very hard, they are sports cars you know!
Unlike your Toyota or any other grocery getter, they may well have seen track time, autocross etc.
With regular maintenance and fixing things when they do go wrong, you will have a very reliable sports car, that is what Porsches reputation is all about.
They can be expensive to buy parts for, you have to be creative and also patient. they are an independant low volume car maker, so parts will be expensive, you did know this when you bought a Porsche, right?
I hate to be blunt, but maybe you should have looked a little longer and paid a little more for a good car.
You are also paying way too much for repairs.
Pick up a copy of Excellence and you will find all the parts you listed for way less.
Example, rebuilt heads from Porsche dealer $400
transaxles I have seen plenty for a $1000
I know it hurts when you are shelling out loads of cash, I have done this with American cars too, my wifes bloody Safari van needs something every week and some of those parts have been a rip, and the cheap crappy rebuilt parts just don't last.
Don't lose faith, maintain the car and you should get many years of trouble free enjoyment.
Sorry if this all sounds a little unsympathetic, but it is what I believe about these cars.
You are talking about a 17 year old sports car, a model of car that if you have ever shopped for one you would know is one of the most used and abused cars out there.
These cars are cheap to buy, they are often bought by people who either cannot afford to maintain them or people that just do not care because they bought it cheap. when enough things break they sell it
These cars are generally driven very hard, they are sports cars you know!
Unlike your Toyota or any other grocery getter, they may well have seen track time, autocross etc.
With regular maintenance and fixing things when they do go wrong, you will have a very reliable sports car, that is what Porsches reputation is all about.
They can be expensive to buy parts for, you have to be creative and also patient. they are an independant low volume car maker, so parts will be expensive, you did know this when you bought a Porsche, right?
I hate to be blunt, but maybe you should have looked a little longer and paid a little more for a good car.
You are also paying way too much for repairs.
Pick up a copy of Excellence and you will find all the parts you listed for way less.
Example, rebuilt heads from Porsche dealer $400
transaxles I have seen plenty for a $1000
I know it hurts when you are shelling out loads of cash, I have done this with American cars too, my wifes bloody Safari van needs something every week and some of those parts have been a rip, and the cheap crappy rebuilt parts just don't last.
Don't lose faith, maintain the car and you should get many years of trouble free enjoyment.
Sorry if this all sounds a little unsympathetic, but it is what I believe about these cars.
01-31-2002, 11:25 AM
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Be careful of comparing apples and oranges WRT other "reliable" cars and Porsche's. It is true that Toyota and Honda build reliable cars. But how many Honda Accords or Toyata Camry's end up at track days? How often does that Toyota Pick-up get run to redline in every gear?
My point is, there are many Porsche's out there with equivalent reliable miles as the econoboxes. And these are the ones that were driven just like a Honda Civic.
Case in point: I bought my 95 968 from my ex-mother-in law. She loved the car for its looks. She didn't think it needed a 6-speed because, "Why would you ever want to go that fast?" Needles to say, the car was absolutely perfect when I got it. BTW, I have first dibs on the red 996 she currently drives.
Since then, I've replaced brake rotors, pads and tires, I've driven the heck out of the car at several DE's and Auto-xes.
Bottom Line: Take care of them, they'll take care of you and keep you young (at heart).
My point is, there are many Porsche's out there with equivalent reliable miles as the econoboxes. And these are the ones that were driven just like a Honda Civic.
Case in point: I bought my 95 968 from my ex-mother-in law. She loved the car for its looks. She didn't think it needed a 6-speed because, "Why would you ever want to go that fast?" Needles to say, the car was absolutely perfect when I got it. BTW, I have first dibs on the red 996 she currently drives.
Since then, I've replaced brake rotors, pads and tires, I've driven the heck out of the car at several DE's and Auto-xes.
Bottom Line: Take care of them, they'll take care of you and keep you young (at heart).
01-31-2002, 12:53 PM
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To my knowledge (according to the PO's) my car has never seen the track. The car was driven by the Vicar of the church that the original owner went to for half of it's life, so it hasn't had a hard life. Yes, I should have shopped around more, it was the first car I looked at. But I was 17 when I bought it, and the car purred like a kitten when I turned it on with those worn out motor mounts 
and I had to have it.
To my credit though, the low mileage (the lowest I could find) was appealing and the PPI was confidence inspiring because the car looked good, save some small, common jobs.
I am very pleased with my mechanics and I don't feel that what they charge is unreasonable for the unbelievable amount of expertise they possess (though I'm sure I could have saved money by doing my own work or driving a bit to get things fixed.) The majority of the cost has come from the fact that just a large number of things have broken.
I don't fault Porsche for these problems. I realize it's an old car, and well, things break on old cars. I think that most of the problems have been caused by the fact it sat for so long and was then briefly mistreated by the guy I bought it from. I am now paying for that mistreatment.
Certainly it serves as a lesson that these cars can get expensive fast when not properly taken care of. I would like to have shopped around and found an enthusiast's thoroughbread, which I will insist on next time I purchase a Porsche, low mileage or not.
But repairs or not, this 17 year old car still completely embarasses nearly every other car I see on the road in terms of style and performance, regardless of price. All of these troubles seem to melt away when you see it again, drive it out of the mechanic's lot and take the long way home.
and I had to have it. To my credit though, the low mileage (the lowest I could find) was appealing and the PPI was confidence inspiring because the car looked good, save some small, common jobs.
I am very pleased with my mechanics and I don't feel that what they charge is unreasonable for the unbelievable amount of expertise they possess (though I'm sure I could have saved money by doing my own work or driving a bit to get things fixed.) The majority of the cost has come from the fact that just a large number of things have broken.
I don't fault Porsche for these problems. I realize it's an old car, and well, things break on old cars. I think that most of the problems have been caused by the fact it sat for so long and was then briefly mistreated by the guy I bought it from. I am now paying for that mistreatment.
Certainly it serves as a lesson that these cars can get expensive fast when not properly taken care of. I would like to have shopped around and found an enthusiast's thoroughbread, which I will insist on next time I purchase a Porsche, low mileage or not.
But repairs or not, this 17 year old car still completely embarasses nearly every other car I see on the road in terms of style and performance, regardless of price. All of these troubles seem to melt away when you see it again, drive it out of the mechanic's lot and take the long way home.
01-31-2002, 12:58 PM
#21
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I appreciate all of the advice, and I am starting to calm down a little bit. When I bought the car I expected that it would cost me more than usual to get things fixed (it's a Porsche, not a Ford). However, I wasn't expecting things to break down as often as they have.
I agree that $2100 is a lot of $$$ to replace a cylinder head. For the first year I owned the car it was my only car, so when I noticed smoke coming out the tail I didn't have the luxury of shopping around much, let alone try to do the job myself. At the time I also put too much stock in the idea of taking the car to a "Porsche mechanic." In hindsight I imagine the head could have been replaced well enough by a competent local mechanic.
As far as doing work myself, my original post shows that I have done quite a few repairs (and all the non-timing belt maintenance) myself. However, I don't have a garage, and my tools are limited. Perhaps I'm selling myself short, but I think replacing a transmission or timing belts is beyond my expertise.
After the tranny incident I began using a local repair shop for most repairs (the ones I don't do myself), although I do still take the car to a "Porsche mechanic" for timing belts. Considering all I hear about the dangers of timing belt failure, I want this done by someone who has a lot of experience with the job. Unfortunatley, my geographic location limits my accessability to mechanics with much experience with Porsches. I know if two shops in Annapolis (45 minutes) and there are plenty around Baltimore and DC (over an hour). As far as the shops in Annapolis go, one is very expensive, and the other is more expensive!
Now my wife and I have a third vehicle, so I'm not totally screwed if the car breaks down. That enabled me to take the time to repair the clutch hydraulics myself. Note that I have been making use of parts distributers like Vertex and 944 Ecology to help keep costs down. The shop in Annapolis wanted $600 to change my radiator! I got the raditor for $190 from Vertex, and after spending a few bucks on antifreeze saved myself nearly $400.
Unfortunately, whatever is wrong now is beyond my skills. It seems like the noise is coming from within the timing belt housing, rather than the water pump. I assume it can't be a blown camshaft belt, or I wouldn't have been able to limp the few miles home after I heard the noise. Could it be the balance shaft belt? I guess I should have the car towed rather than try to drive it at this point.
I will probably keep the car for a while. The bottom line is that even if I spend $3000 a year on repairs, that's equivalent to making a $250/month car payment. And you can't get much for $250/month.
I agree that $2100 is a lot of $$$ to replace a cylinder head. For the first year I owned the car it was my only car, so when I noticed smoke coming out the tail I didn't have the luxury of shopping around much, let alone try to do the job myself. At the time I also put too much stock in the idea of taking the car to a "Porsche mechanic." In hindsight I imagine the head could have been replaced well enough by a competent local mechanic.
As far as doing work myself, my original post shows that I have done quite a few repairs (and all the non-timing belt maintenance) myself. However, I don't have a garage, and my tools are limited. Perhaps I'm selling myself short, but I think replacing a transmission or timing belts is beyond my expertise.
After the tranny incident I began using a local repair shop for most repairs (the ones I don't do myself), although I do still take the car to a "Porsche mechanic" for timing belts. Considering all I hear about the dangers of timing belt failure, I want this done by someone who has a lot of experience with the job. Unfortunatley, my geographic location limits my accessability to mechanics with much experience with Porsches. I know if two shops in Annapolis (45 minutes) and there are plenty around Baltimore and DC (over an hour). As far as the shops in Annapolis go, one is very expensive, and the other is more expensive!
Now my wife and I have a third vehicle, so I'm not totally screwed if the car breaks down. That enabled me to take the time to repair the clutch hydraulics myself. Note that I have been making use of parts distributers like Vertex and 944 Ecology to help keep costs down. The shop in Annapolis wanted $600 to change my radiator! I got the raditor for $190 from Vertex, and after spending a few bucks on antifreeze saved myself nearly $400.
Unfortunately, whatever is wrong now is beyond my skills. It seems like the noise is coming from within the timing belt housing, rather than the water pump. I assume it can't be a blown camshaft belt, or I wouldn't have been able to limp the few miles home after I heard the noise. Could it be the balance shaft belt? I guess I should have the car towed rather than try to drive it at this point.
I will probably keep the car for a while. The bottom line is that even if I spend $3000 a year on repairs, that's equivalent to making a $250/month car payment. And you can't get much for $250/month.
01-31-2002, 01:07 PM
#22
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By the way, my wife's Toyota truck is by no means coddled. She is a large animal veterinarian, and she drives it for her work; hence the 250K miles in only seven years. The bed has a cap and is filled with many hundreds of pounds of equipment and supplies, so the engine and suspension have had to constantly work extra hard. Furthermore, the truck is freqeuntly driven off-road and on roads of very poor quality. Although she doesn't frequently red-line the engine, my wife is usually in a hurry to get places, and she drives the truck pretty hard. All this on a 2.4 liter 4-cylinder engine, not a V-6 or V-8.
When I bought the 944 back in 1987, I was purchasing a car because the car I owned was wrecked by some joker in a truck who rear-ended me. Anyway, my point is that I had to buy a vehicle and didn't have the opportunity to take my time. There's no doubt that if I buy another used car in the future I will research it much more thoroughly. Whether it's a car or anything else, you are always best off buying something when you don't NEED it!
When I bought the 944 back in 1987, I was purchasing a car because the car I owned was wrecked by some joker in a truck who rear-ended me. Anyway, my point is that I had to buy a vehicle and didn't have the opportunity to take my time. There's no doubt that if I buy another used car in the future I will research it much more thoroughly. Whether it's a car or anything else, you are always best off buying something when you don't NEED it!
01-31-2002, 01:40 PM
#23
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First let me say I think it great your still using the car as your daily.......
But, you can't expect any car to run problem free forever. 16 Years is a long time to be on the road. I don't see very many cars from 1986 that are still daily drivers. Of the ones I see very few are high performance cars, and even less are Porsches.
The reason? is it's not worth it !!!. People that keep older cars on the road do it for the love of the car. Judging Porsche reliability on a 16 year old car with almost 150K on it is hardly fair to the mark.
Your 1994 truck is 8 years younger and has 8 years more advanced electronics, fuel management systems, and far less complicated chassis and suspension. I suspect your truck is a 4 banger since the 6 cylinder Toyotas of that vintage were recalled for defective engine blocks (including mine). I got 48k out of my Toyota before the engine let go. It had a 9 thousand dollar 6 month stay at the dealer (covered by warranty of course). You can imaging what that can do to your confidence.
But, you can't expect any car to run problem free forever. 16 Years is a long time to be on the road. I don't see very many cars from 1986 that are still daily drivers. Of the ones I see very few are high performance cars, and even less are Porsches.
The reason? is it's not worth it !!!. People that keep older cars on the road do it for the love of the car. Judging Porsche reliability on a 16 year old car with almost 150K on it is hardly fair to the mark.
Your 1994 truck is 8 years younger and has 8 years more advanced electronics, fuel management systems, and far less complicated chassis and suspension. I suspect your truck is a 4 banger since the 6 cylinder Toyotas of that vintage were recalled for defective engine blocks (including mine). I got 48k out of my Toyota before the engine let go. It had a 9 thousand dollar 6 month stay at the dealer (covered by warranty of course). You can imaging what that can do to your confidence.
01-31-2002, 03:58 PM
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Mark,
I can seriously relate to your situation. I have owned my 87 951 since Oct of 2000 and it has only ran for 3 months in that time period. I spent 7700 for the car and have put about 12,500 into, come of that went to a mechanic that did not install my rings properly or to a shop that did not sell me the right rings (I'll leave anonamous for reps sake) Now Im trying to pay of the debt just so I can get the car running by summer (thank goodness for back up cars). Some of that money goes to new turbo, exhaust, wastegate,rims tyres, etc. But a large part was for labor that ended up not fixing my car and advice that did not help at all (again, I leave the shop anonamous, but we all know them) Anyway, I feel the pain bro, I really do!!!
I can seriously relate to your situation. I have owned my 87 951 since Oct of 2000 and it has only ran for 3 months in that time period. I spent 7700 for the car and have put about 12,500 into, come of that went to a mechanic that did not install my rings properly or to a shop that did not sell me the right rings (I'll leave anonamous for reps sake) Now Im trying to pay of the debt just so I can get the car running by summer (thank goodness for back up cars). Some of that money goes to new turbo, exhaust, wastegate,rims tyres, etc. But a large part was for labor that ended up not fixing my car and advice that did not help at all (again, I leave the shop anonamous, but we all know them) Anyway, I feel the pain bro, I really do!!!
01-31-2002, 06:50 PM
#25
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Hello!
Just to give a little bit of perspective here.
The water pump on my '90 944S2 lasted to 135K miles. I replaced it during a rebuild (previous owner(s) didn't believe in regular oil changes, result scored pistons/cylinder walls) it was still good at that mileage.
The new water pumps (new from the factory) should basically last the life of the car. Don't buy rebuilt crap, it's not that much cheaper and it doesn't carry a Porsche warranty!
My 86 951 was cared for well by the previous owners. I have done only scheduled maintenance and replacing old components. The car now has over 155K miles and the engine has never been apart. It's had a few water pumps, a couple of sets of A-arms, a set of new driveshafts (was easier than replacing just the CV's), and normal (3000 mile) oil changes. It doessn't burn oil, runs like a top and looks fabulous.
What I'm saying is that you have to be very careful when you buy these cars, most of the cars out there are owned by people that don't either know or care about normal maintenance procedures. The problems you are having seem to be from poor maintenance sometime in it's life. You seem to have replaced a lot of the really expensive parts already. I'd say keep it!
Did you get the timing belt retensioned 1000 miles after replacement, then at 15K miles and replace at 30K miles. It could be just a loose belt.
What kind of noise is it?
Good luck!
Dal.
Just to give a little bit of perspective here.
The water pump on my '90 944S2 lasted to 135K miles. I replaced it during a rebuild (previous owner(s) didn't believe in regular oil changes, result scored pistons/cylinder walls) it was still good at that mileage.
The new water pumps (new from the factory) should basically last the life of the car. Don't buy rebuilt crap, it's not that much cheaper and it doesn't carry a Porsche warranty!
My 86 951 was cared for well by the previous owners. I have done only scheduled maintenance and replacing old components. The car now has over 155K miles and the engine has never been apart. It's had a few water pumps, a couple of sets of A-arms, a set of new driveshafts (was easier than replacing just the CV's), and normal (3000 mile) oil changes. It doessn't burn oil, runs like a top and looks fabulous.
What I'm saying is that you have to be very careful when you buy these cars, most of the cars out there are owned by people that don't either know or care about normal maintenance procedures. The problems you are having seem to be from poor maintenance sometime in it's life. You seem to have replaced a lot of the really expensive parts already. I'd say keep it!
Did you get the timing belt retensioned 1000 miles after replacement, then at 15K miles and replace at 30K miles. It could be just a loose belt.
What kind of noise is it?
Good luck!
Dal.
01-31-2002, 06:54 PM
#26
Could the noise be from one of the many idlers and rollers in the belt system? My 84 made an awful noise that I was told sounded like a bad alternator. Turned out to be a bad roller and after replacing, it was so joyously quiet!
If it is a loose roller or bad balance shaft belt (balance shaft belt would probably mean extra vibration) those can be serious as they lead to cambelt failure if there are loose pieces in there. You could probably take out enough of the covers to see if need be.
If it is a loose roller or bad balance shaft belt (balance shaft belt would probably mean extra vibration) those can be serious as they lead to cambelt failure if there are loose pieces in there. You could probably take out enough of the covers to see if need be.
01-31-2002, 07:10 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Here is something I would question about the machanic, why at 144K was the belts replaced and not the rollers and seals. this is normally done "while your there" and should have been recommended at that point ??
get that cover pulled and checked by someone that knows these cars, it may save your engine.
get that cover pulled and checked by someone that knows these cars, it may save your engine.
01-31-2002, 10:20 PM
#28
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Mark: Your experience sounds not unlike what I was dealing with, with my 99 Windstar. I can understand why the caR is making you angry. Constant breakdowns take the bloom off mighty quick.
Sounds like most of the trouble points are taken care of. Perhaps an inspection would identify some stuff before it goes bad, and you can then work on them at your leisure yourself for a lot less money. Maintenance/repair issues are less expensive, and less stressful, when planned.
By the way, I dumped the Windstar yesterday so that source of pain is over. No amount of fixing would make that thing right. What a relief...
Thaddeus
Sounds like most of the trouble points are taken care of. Perhaps an inspection would identify some stuff before it goes bad, and you can then work on them at your leisure yourself for a lot less money. Maintenance/repair issues are less expensive, and less stressful, when planned.
By the way, I dumped the Windstar yesterday so that source of pain is over. No amount of fixing would make that thing right. What a relief...
Thaddeus
02-01-2002, 02:48 AM
#29
Three Wheelin'
When I bought my 944 I was a little leary about the maint cost. But 15k miles and 10 months later I couldn't be happier with my car. Although it has had a very good history and I am very **** about it. The odometer is just about to hit 117k miles and I am confident it can go for many more years. By the way, it is an '82, 20 YEARS OLD. This car was built when I was 2 YEARS OLD!!!! 
02-01-2002, 02:53 AM
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It's a hex the PO put on it... trust me. Mine has been the same, from leaking seals, bent valves, and a fireball! Call miss Cleo and have her kill the deamon that owns your cars soul. (Or burn it out.. seems to have worked with me.. I hope)
Upwards of 20K into an $8500 car, and that is 100% of my free labor. It has seen the road 1 year of the 3 I have had it. I coulden't dream of the cash it would cost me to have someone else do it. I seems that there are some cars on this board, for some reason or another, that are always broken. Sooner or later, everything will be replaced, and for far less than the cost of a new one.. if you could get it.
Hang with 'em. The trick is getting the problem fixed before it turns into something major. I would also encourage you to learn about the car and do your repairs, especially since you have another vehicle. It will save you a lot of money, and you will be very happy with yourself that you did it. Questions, ask the board. Need something, ask. There is nothing in there that most people cannot handle, or that we cannot help you with.
Good luck! Things will get better.
Upwards of 20K into an $8500 car, and that is 100% of my free labor. It has seen the road 1 year of the 3 I have had it. I coulden't dream of the cash it would cost me to have someone else do it. I seems that there are some cars on this board, for some reason or another, that are always broken. Sooner or later, everything will be replaced, and for far less than the cost of a new one.. if you could get it.
Hang with 'em. The trick is getting the problem fixed before it turns into something major. I would also encourage you to learn about the car and do your repairs, especially since you have another vehicle. It will save you a lot of money, and you will be very happy with yourself that you did it. Questions, ask the board. Need something, ask. There is nothing in there that most people cannot handle, or that we cannot help you with.
Good luck! Things will get better.