What to do over a Canadian winter - S2 3L swap in early 944
09-05-2012, 09:53 PM
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What to do over a Canadian winter - S2 3L swap in early 944 ...now LS6.
I'm preparing to do a early 85 944 - S2 3L engine swap this winter. The 85 is a great car with well sorted suspension (250 lbs front springs / 28mm TB, Koni's, big bars, delrin bushngs, boxed steel control arms, 17" turbo twists with 235 / 255 tires). The S2 is complete, but rough. I'm taking the brakes, engine and transaxle all from the S2 for the 85. I have done a lot of surfing and reading, but all detailed projects I've found were late cars, which I think are a little easier. I have a few questions before I get started.
1. DME location and engine wiring harness, do you use the existing wiring harness and modify as required, or replace it with the harness from the S2? Remember, this is an early car with the DME at the drivers knees by the fuses.
2. Any issues if I use the rear suspension from the S2 (TB housing, banana arms and axle housing, bearings and stub axles), but retain the steel control arms up front. I realize what has to be done to get the S2 brakes on the early car (S2 strut, spindle and adjustable Camber plates), but with the S2 rear and steel control arms up front, the car will be "mixed offset'. This sounds bad...but really is it?? I can't come up with a reason why it would be an issue. I have Turbo twists in both offsets.
3. Any issues with clearance to the master cylinder or brake booster. Should I use the S2 MC and BB?
4. Use the S2 rad, but what to do with fans, older style early fans or the new S2 fans. I guess alot of this comes down to if you the early or S2 wiring harness.
5. Should 944's with moderiate power (not 400hp LSX) have the same size tires front and back, not staggered, like most came from the factory. I realize that the turbo models were staggered, but also understeered. Seems like a bigger tire on the front (equal to the back) would be a good thing??
Thanks for all the help, this is a long term project, over the next 6-8 months. I'll keep this thread alive with progress (or many more questions!!??)
Gord.
1. DME location and engine wiring harness, do you use the existing wiring harness and modify as required, or replace it with the harness from the S2? Remember, this is an early car with the DME at the drivers knees by the fuses.
2. Any issues if I use the rear suspension from the S2 (TB housing, banana arms and axle housing, bearings and stub axles), but retain the steel control arms up front. I realize what has to be done to get the S2 brakes on the early car (S2 strut, spindle and adjustable Camber plates), but with the S2 rear and steel control arms up front, the car will be "mixed offset'. This sounds bad...but really is it?? I can't come up with a reason why it would be an issue. I have Turbo twists in both offsets.
3. Any issues with clearance to the master cylinder or brake booster. Should I use the S2 MC and BB?
4. Use the S2 rad, but what to do with fans, older style early fans or the new S2 fans. I guess alot of this comes down to if you the early or S2 wiring harness.
5. Should 944's with moderiate power (not 400hp LSX) have the same size tires front and back, not staggered, like most came from the factory. I realize that the turbo models were staggered, but also understeered. Seems like a bigger tire on the front (equal to the back) would be a good thing??
Thanks for all the help, this is a long term project, over the next 6-8 months. I'll keep this thread alive with progress (or many more questions!!??)
Gord.
Last edited by murrayg; 12-03-2019 at 07:30 PM.
09-06-2012, 09:08 AM
#2
Mixed offset is okay. However, I would upgrade to either '86 Turbo or '87+ 944 spindles. Your early spindles are sketchy - the driver's side one is hollow. (your avatar suggest you track the car).
Or is it a late '85 (a 1985.5)? Even if it is, I would still upgrade the spindles.
I would upgrade the brakes to 951 units (same as S2), so therefore I think you need to change the booster and master anyway.
Tire staggering is all your preference. For an S2 I would go with a slightly staggered setup.
Take care!
Or is it a late '85 (a 1985.5)? Even if it is, I would still upgrade the spindles.
I would upgrade the brakes to 951 units (same as S2), so therefore I think you need to change the booster and master anyway.
Tire staggering is all your preference. For an S2 I would go with a slightly staggered setup.
Take care!
10-23-2012, 11:06 AM
#3
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See below in bold.
I'm preparing to do a early 85 944 - S2 3L engine swap this winter. The 85 is a great car with well sorted suspension (250 lbs front springs / 28mm TB, Koni's, big bars, delrin bushngs, boxed steel control arms, 17" turbo twists with 235 / 255 tires). The S2 is complete, but rough. I'm taking the brakes, engine and transaxle all from the S2 for the 85. I have done a lot of surfing and reading, but all detailed projects I've found were late cars, which I think are a little easier. I have a few questions before I get started.
1. DME location and engine wiring harness, do you use the existing wiring harness and modify as required, or replace it with the harness from the S2? Remember, this is an early car with the DME at the drivers knees by the fuses.
This is a huge issue. I'm currently trying to get my track car running because the PO had done this conversion. Goes something like this: The S2 wiring harness is *completely* different than the early NA harness. As in nothing is a direct connection. The S2 engine bay wiring harness has the circuit for the ignition control module. Your engine won't run without that. Also, the DME harness has the injector resistor pack as well. Need to make sure that you have that available otherwise the injectors won't fire. The S2 DME harness won't send the proper signals to your stock gauges so be prepared to have to live w/o a speedometer. If you can find an 85.5+ car to do this swap on it will be MUCH easier to accomplish and you'll have a much higher chance of it working. PM if you'd like more info.
2. Any issues if I use the rear suspension from the S2 (TB housing, banana arms and axle housing, bearings and stub axles), but retain the steel control arms up front. I realize what has to be done to get the S2 brakes on the early car (S2 strut, spindle and adjustable Camber plates), but with the S2 rear and steel control arms up front, the car will be "mixed offset'. This sounds bad...but really is it?? I can't come up with a reason why it would be an issue. I have Turbo twists in both offsets.
3. Any issues with clearance to the master cylinder or brake booster. Should I use the S2 MC and BB?
4. Use the S2 rad, but what to do with fans, older style early fans or the new S2 fans. I guess alot of this comes down to if you the early or S2 wiring harness.
5. Should 944's with moderiate power (not 400hp LSX) have the same size tires front and back, not staggered, like most came from the factory. I realize that the turbo models were staggered, but also understeered. Seems like a bigger tire on the front (equal to the back) would be a good thing??
Thanks for all the help, this is a long term project, over the next 6-8 months. I'll keep this thread alive with progress (or many more questions!!??)
Gord.
1. DME location and engine wiring harness, do you use the existing wiring harness and modify as required, or replace it with the harness from the S2? Remember, this is an early car with the DME at the drivers knees by the fuses.
This is a huge issue. I'm currently trying to get my track car running because the PO had done this conversion. Goes something like this: The S2 wiring harness is *completely* different than the early NA harness. As in nothing is a direct connection. The S2 engine bay wiring harness has the circuit for the ignition control module. Your engine won't run without that. Also, the DME harness has the injector resistor pack as well. Need to make sure that you have that available otherwise the injectors won't fire. The S2 DME harness won't send the proper signals to your stock gauges so be prepared to have to live w/o a speedometer. If you can find an 85.5+ car to do this swap on it will be MUCH easier to accomplish and you'll have a much higher chance of it working. PM if you'd like more info.
2. Any issues if I use the rear suspension from the S2 (TB housing, banana arms and axle housing, bearings and stub axles), but retain the steel control arms up front. I realize what has to be done to get the S2 brakes on the early car (S2 strut, spindle and adjustable Camber plates), but with the S2 rear and steel control arms up front, the car will be "mixed offset'. This sounds bad...but really is it?? I can't come up with a reason why it would be an issue. I have Turbo twists in both offsets.
3. Any issues with clearance to the master cylinder or brake booster. Should I use the S2 MC and BB?
4. Use the S2 rad, but what to do with fans, older style early fans or the new S2 fans. I guess alot of this comes down to if you the early or S2 wiring harness.
5. Should 944's with moderiate power (not 400hp LSX) have the same size tires front and back, not staggered, like most came from the factory. I realize that the turbo models were staggered, but also understeered. Seems like a bigger tire on the front (equal to the back) would be a good thing??
Thanks for all the help, this is a long term project, over the next 6-8 months. I'll keep this thread alive with progress (or many more questions!!??)
Gord.
10-23-2012, 02:58 PM
#4
Murrayg, I to have a early '85 that is set up very simular to yours. I also have a S2 engine and drive train and have like you searched this forum and others on the subject. as you have said most swaps are into later models or are the 968 swap. And while informatve do not shine alot of light on some of the grey areas you mention. My main concern was. Don't screw up a good car! The swap must be a positive one with minimal negitive effect on the car (ie. eletrical sys.) and a positive effect on performance, maintainabillity and above all reliability. The S2 engine is IMHO the perfect fit for these cars.
The biggest challege to overcome is the electrical, as has been covered in many prior post. My solution to this to keep from hacking up the electical system a rendering it almost impossible for accurate troubleshooting or repair in the future. Keep it from becomming a nightmare! My solution to this is to retain the early DME, Flywheel, clutch and reference sensors. They will work just fine and the engine will not know the difference and you will be able to retain most of the stock integrity of the electrical system. Now to do this we must make some slight changes obviously. Years ago I had my DME upgraded to 24 pin with a dual EPROM. This may be something you may want to consider. More memory, removable chip will make the fuel and ignition mapping possible that will have to be accomplished. There may even be better alternatives to this. ( 28 pin conversion, Rogue Tuning?) In addition, different fuel injectors and a 3 bar pressure regulator would also be considerations. Whether to run the Aux air valve or ISV as well.
Second on my list is to bring the car into the 21st century! Getting rid of the AFM and going to a MAF or MAP set-up. There are several out there and at least one on the horizon by venders right here on RL for the N/A cars incuding the 16V. I personally am heavily leaning toward the new Elecromotive TEC-s stand alone sys. It would do the job with out all the bells and whistles and simplify things 100%. Just my 2 cents.
As far as the rest of the biggies go, suspension and Xmssn selection, it sounds like you've pretty well got it covered. I have a strong 87S tranny in mine and plan on leaving it in atleast initially. You will have to drill your driverside spindle to incorparate the early speedo cable, or come up with an alternative. (GPS) But with a good S2 spindle and a competent machine shop this should not be a problem. If you have any concerns about integrity have it hardened.
I hope this is of help to you. It is not meant to be a complete instruction guide on how to do the swap but rather an alternative to the conventional. Just to get you thinkin'! Who knows maybe someone from the S3 community would have some better insight. That would be appreciated for sure! -Dave
The biggest challege to overcome is the electrical, as has been covered in many prior post. My solution to this to keep from hacking up the electical system a rendering it almost impossible for accurate troubleshooting or repair in the future. Keep it from becomming a nightmare! My solution to this is to retain the early DME, Flywheel, clutch and reference sensors. They will work just fine and the engine will not know the difference and you will be able to retain most of the stock integrity of the electrical system. Now to do this we must make some slight changes obviously. Years ago I had my DME upgraded to 24 pin with a dual EPROM. This may be something you may want to consider. More memory, removable chip will make the fuel and ignition mapping possible that will have to be accomplished. There may even be better alternatives to this. ( 28 pin conversion, Rogue Tuning?) In addition, different fuel injectors and a 3 bar pressure regulator would also be considerations. Whether to run the Aux air valve or ISV as well.
Second on my list is to bring the car into the 21st century! Getting rid of the AFM and going to a MAF or MAP set-up. There are several out there and at least one on the horizon by venders right here on RL for the N/A cars incuding the 16V. I personally am heavily leaning toward the new Elecromotive TEC-s stand alone sys. It would do the job with out all the bells and whistles and simplify things 100%. Just my 2 cents.
As far as the rest of the biggies go, suspension and Xmssn selection, it sounds like you've pretty well got it covered. I have a strong 87S tranny in mine and plan on leaving it in atleast initially. You will have to drill your driverside spindle to incorparate the early speedo cable, or come up with an alternative. (GPS) But with a good S2 spindle and a competent machine shop this should not be a problem. If you have any concerns about integrity have it hardened.
I hope this is of help to you. It is not meant to be a complete instruction guide on how to do the swap but rather an alternative to the conventional. Just to get you thinkin'! Who knows maybe someone from the S3 community would have some better insight. That would be appreciated for sure! -Dave
Last edited by turbodave; 10-23-2012 at 04:16 PM. Reason: spelling
10-23-2012, 07:19 PM
#5
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I've just gone back to square on my 400hp ls1 944. I'd run staggered for a bit but braking and handling are both much better with the same width tire up front.
Rich
Rich
01-21-2013, 09:06 AM
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An update, as requested. The good – S2 is stripped, rear suspension cleaned up and put in early car. 28mm Tbars, 18mm sway bar and delrin mounts all transferred over. S2 brakes and transaxle are now on early car.
The bad…and it’s really bad! The S2 block and pistons are trashed. This was not expected and throws the entire program in jeopardy. There are several options to repair the damaged cylinder walls and replace pistons, and the cheapest is $2k. The head, cams and crank are all perfect, that’s good. But adding $2000 to the rebuild cost of the 3.0L is a hard pill to swallow. I’m not sure what to do at this point. I sure understand how LS1’s end up in these cars!
Comments welcome.
Gord.
The bad…and it’s really bad! The S2 block and pistons are trashed. This was not expected and throws the entire program in jeopardy. There are several options to repair the damaged cylinder walls and replace pistons, and the cheapest is $2k. The head, cams and crank are all perfect, that’s good. But adding $2000 to the rebuild cost of the 3.0L is a hard pill to swallow. I’m not sure what to do at this point. I sure understand how LS1’s end up in these cars!
Comments welcome.
Gord.
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01-21-2013, 10:56 AM
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Gord, I can appreciate your dilemma but going the V8 route is not cheap ether. Is the damage limited to just the one cylinder or is it all four? Had this engine been rebuilt before? Just curious. Best of luck whichever way you decide to go. -Dave
01-21-2013, 12:37 PM
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Dave, the engine had not been rebuilt before (rod bearings dated 1288) and the damage is to all 4 cylinders. The rest of the engine is in amazingly great shape! Hard call to know what to do.
Gord.
Gord.
01-24-2013, 03:43 PM
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That's a damn shame, I'm a 1983 S3 owner myself and it is a real wake up call compared to the old 2.5 8v.
FWIW my mechanic used the 968 DME, in the original location, with a 968 engine harness and probably a whole lot of cursing to get the original speedo to work. Everything works as it should and runs flawlessly.
One issue I had is the motor was sitting too high at regular mount location, so I used Lindsey ultra mounts which allowed me to lower it by 10mm I believe.
Hope it all works out for you.
FWIW my mechanic used the 968 DME, in the original location, with a 968 engine harness and probably a whole lot of cursing to get the original speedo to work. Everything works as it should and runs flawlessly.
One issue I had is the motor was sitting too high at regular mount location, so I used Lindsey ultra mounts which allowed me to lower it by 10mm I believe.
Hope it all works out for you.
01-24-2013, 06:32 PM
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Nice car porcho.What did it cost you for an s3 swap in total if you don't mind me asking?I have an 84 and can get a 968 engine and dme if the guy hasn't sold it yet.Who did your work?I'm from Toronto also.
Sorry about the hijack
Sorry about the hijack
01-24-2013, 06:38 PM
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Henry from Refined Motorsports did the work. Very clean shop filled with all sorts of Porsches.
Price he gave me to rebuild the 968 engine, remove the old one, old tranny, take care of any electrical and fuel issues and reinstall the engine and tranny (along with new clutch, shift rod, lever, anything else that could have been replaced at the time) was somewhere around 10k. Seemed quite reasonable to me although I'm sure some of you could have done it for much less.
That's minus the purchase price of the engine and trans.
Price he gave me to rebuild the 968 engine, remove the old one, old tranny, take care of any electrical and fuel issues and reinstall the engine and tranny (along with new clutch, shift rod, lever, anything else that could have been replaced at the time) was somewhere around 10k. Seemed quite reasonable to me although I'm sure some of you could have done it for much less.
That's minus the purchase price of the engine and trans.
01-04-2014, 09:15 AM
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Well, it's been a year since I last posted an update. So many of these projects just die. And this one kinda did, in one sense. I drove the car all summer (into November) with the suspension / brake upgrades and loved it. But it SO needs more power. So:
The 3L engine is scrapped
, 2.5L engine is out of the car and a well built LS1 is going in. This decision was not easy, but logic prevailed. It just didn't make sense to try to rebuild the 3L for 220 rwhp. The LS1 is still in pieces but will be assembled when stuff gets back from the balancing shop. It has new JE pistons, H beam Eagle rods, Comp cam kit, mild ported 241 heads and LS6 intake. I was able to buy all the "swap" parts as a package off Kijiji (like Craigslist) for a good price from a failed project. It includes new oil pan, mounts, C5 bell housing with release bearing, new Spec clutch and light flywheel, Turn1 power steering pump. Everything except headers.
I'd post pictures of the progress if anyone is interested (ya, I know, just another LS1 conversion!), but I think RL limits pictures.
So, there you have it. I just wanted to update this, not start a "OH NO, don't do it" debate. It's done. I'd love to hear experiences WRT headers and brakes from folks who have done this. I've read the other forums but am reaching out here as well.
Cheers, and have a great 2014!
Gord.
The 3L engine is scrapped
, 2.5L engine is out of the car and a well built LS1 is going in. This decision was not easy, but logic prevailed. It just didn't make sense to try to rebuild the 3L for 220 rwhp. The LS1 is still in pieces but will be assembled when stuff gets back from the balancing shop. It has new JE pistons, H beam Eagle rods, Comp cam kit, mild ported 241 heads and LS6 intake. I was able to buy all the "swap" parts as a package off Kijiji (like Craigslist) for a good price from a failed project. It includes new oil pan, mounts, C5 bell housing with release bearing, new Spec clutch and light flywheel, Turn1 power steering pump. Everything except headers.I'd post pictures of the progress if anyone is interested (ya, I know, just another LS1 conversion!), but I think RL limits pictures.
So, there you have it. I just wanted to update this, not start a "OH NO, don't do it" debate. It's done. I'd love to hear experiences WRT headers and brakes from folks who have done this. I've read the other forums but am reaching out here as well.
Cheers, and have a great 2014!
Gord.
