gtroth

Yeah, once I caught up on deferred maintenence from the po I've had many years of trouble free service. Amazing, really.
One thing I'd like to know is if an '88 944 is leakier (oil, coolant, ps fluid, hatch, windows, battery compartment) than say an '88 Accord. Sure seems leaky - much of the catching up was dealing with leaks.

dontnow

Sounds like this forum also; even this thread. Kind of frustrating really.

Cole, what you have been saying about the diff between maint and failure is right on target.

mbardeen

I'll bite.

Ask some 968 owners how many times they've had to fix their door handles, how their firewall flexes/cracks, about their problems with plate lift on the brakes, or how their starter engaged itself when they weren't even near the car.

This idea these Porsches don't have design flaws is absurd. To be honest? My 1995 Jeep Cherokee has far less design problems than my 968 and far less maintenance issues as well. Yes, some of the Porsche's maintenance issues may be attributed to lack of care by previous owners. But really -- how hard is it to make a door that opens properly for 20 years?

Cole

Duh! Nobody said they didn't

B.S..

I've owned over 1 million miles of Jeeps and they have tons of flaws.

95 XJ? Crap D35 rear axle with undersized c-clip axles, seals that leak into the brakes, tubes that bend. Or the ever worse 9.25 unit. Clutch slaves, ball joints, slip yokes, TCase shift forks, TCase chains. The infamous "death wobble". A steering system that turns further one direction than the other, unit bearing failures, cracked headers, rear valve cover leaks, flimsy sheet metal control arms and unibody construction, won't even get into the fit and finish items. ......and these are all true reliability issues, not age or abuse.

mbardeen

I'm not going to get into an argument about relative Cherokee reliability, especially since most of what you mentioned is due to either lifting and larger tires (death wobble, ball joints, unit bearings etc) or what I'd consider regular maintenance (header cracks due to worn engine mounts, gasket failure causing RMS leaks and valve cover leaks). Not to mention that it threatens to veer dangerously off-topic.

Please also notice I didn't call the Porsche out on the balance shaft leaks, or the PS pump/rack/hoses, or any number of other things that I consider to be age related, but could be called true reliability issues under your designation.

What I will say is that the list of things that were/are not working on my Porsche is *much* greater than the number of things that were/are not working on my Jeep. This is my personal experience.

There a number of potential causes.. it could be also to poor mechanics working on the Porsche and good mechanics working on the Jeep. Repairs were at least attempted on many of the issues that I've found on the Porsche. I've since had to go back and re-do most of them correctly.

And I still need to figure out why the AC isn't working and why the cruise control isn't working, why there's a strong smell of gas in the cabin whenever I fill the tank, why the window doesn't roll up and seal against the cab top correctly, why the central locking doesn't work, etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I love driving the Porsche and it will be maintained and babied while it's under my care, but I stand by my original statement. If you told me that I could only have one car for the rest of my life and that I could only buy maintenance parts for it... based on my experience I'm sorry to say that I'd have to go with the Cherokee.

mbardeen

Choose your position. Stick to it.

Cole

...of the items wrong with MY car. (Read it again and you will see that it was in reference to the condition of a specific vehicle, not all 944s in general) Everything I had to fix was due to abuse or neglect.

...and we have uncovered several poor choices for materials at least in this thread.

Unlike the Jeep which you seems to think is designed better and there is an easy list of a dozen design issues. No to mention they are just parts bin cars, recycling old tech, produced by the lowest common bidder.

mbardeen

Fair enough. But there has been the strong implication in the rest of the thread that there were no flaws in design, but only execution. Even here, you don't attribute the failure to design, but to material failure.

I hate to break this to you, but the greatest design in the world isn't worth the paper it's specified on if the execution is flawed. If the materials aren't up to snuff, you've got an unreliable car.

Yet mine has run with minimal time/money investment over the past 6 years, even though it is of similar age and has twice the number of miles as the Porsche. So why would that be again? Better material? Did I just get lucky?

Oddjob

Ok, Ill ask - how common are those problems?

Cole

4 full liters of displacement to get 190hp out of 6 cyl....... Does your Jeep really do what the Porsche does? Totally different creatures. The xj is more tool than passion. It's primary design purpose was to do a job cheap. It does that.

mbardeen

Based on my admittedly short experience with the 968, incredibly common. Door handle issues seem to affect just about all cars eventually. Both mine were not working correctly. A quick search of the 968 forums here and elsewhere suggest many more have had problems.

Firewall cracks/flex are very common as well, whether due to increased clutch pedal pressure or otherwise.

Starter issues are due to an uninsulated wire next to the exciter wire are also very common. The exciter wire sheathing eventually cracks, sparks happen, and car starts moving on its own or making a horrible racket because the starter is trying to engage the moving flywheel.

And I contend that does that job more reliably than the Porsche does its job.

I happen to think the 944/968 is an incredibly well engineered package as a whole. The performance is outstanding and the brand has such a prestige that people are willing to invest the money to keep them running. I also understand that reliability often suffers in the search for more performance. But take off your rose colored glasses. In terms of long term reliability of the entire package, my current impression is that it's often worse than autos that cost far less. I sincerely hope my impressions change as I own the car for longer.

VirginiaF1

Great thread ( and great garage..)

With nearly a 1/4 million miles, my '88 runs not perfectly but quite well; most every switch is original and still works; and when I redo the struts and A/C expansion valve this car will be damn near perfect... for a limited time.

My '90 Accord 4-cyl lasted 287k when I sold it running well..
My '87 Volvo 740 Turbo lasted 264k when i sold it running well..

I've felt fortunate to have owned what I'd consider the big 3 of auto reliability.
Whereas the 944 came with nearly $17,000 of service records, the Honda and Volvo each also ran through 2 water pumps, 2 radiators, 2 sets of cooling hoses, 2 mufflers, 2 iterations of wheel bearings, 2 sets of discs & pads, 5 timing belts, and 2 AC compressors... the point being that my 944 has seen replacement of these same components as those other two warhorses but at FAR greater cost. Comes with the 2 previous owners ALWAYS using their local Porsche dealer..
Interesting analysis to cost out the DIY costs for these same $14,000 worth of Porsche dealer maintenance. (there's about $3k in fluid changes at indys)

Clutch nipple is a tad more than halfway through the viewing port. 28mm vs. 16mm - 34mm limit. But there are NO service records for ANY clutch work and I even called each dealership... pure mystery.
I did do the "put it in 3rd gear then rock back & forth test"... won't budge and no dog ear/metal tab noises or clunks. We all debated last year on my clutch thread how long in miles/years a rubber center Sachs would last.

Lastly, I will say that these records clearly show over 100,000 miles on every replaced component listed above (save the timing belts....)
My car has the Original alternator, original power steering pump & rack, window & headlamp motors, creaky hatch glass, CV axles, Torque Tube, transmission and the entire engine.

To me, that is exceptional reliability.
And what a rewarding driver's coupe Porsche makes.

mikey

Lightningmcnulty

I like this thread, the thing is that most people don't know what true unreliability is.

I'm English and moved here a few years ago, over there were exposed to a far greater selection of cars than here and I have to tell you that most of what is sold here is very reliable.

older American cars generally left the factory as heavy metal with a very low specific output and technology that is incredibly outdated so of course they had better be reliable but in truth the plastics suck the electronics will probably fail switches fall off etc.

British cars are absolutely useless (hence the demise of the industry), the electronics and wiring are generally a joke, usually the engines are ok and the body is fine for the most part.

but the fact is that for the most part cars these days, that are taken care of correctly are pretty reliable.

I've been driving for 11 years and have broken down on the side of the road exactly twice, once in my Nissan skyline R32 gtr, which ran out of fuel (easy to do in that thing but worth it) and once in a Renault 5 Turbo.

The latter car is the reason I say most cars are reliable, that thing could be a contender for the most unreliable car ever, if the cooling system isn't absolutely perfect it will blow a head gasket not to mention all the other problems but it was a fun car.


My 951 is 24 years old i'm repairing it because the PO blew the timing belt, wouldn't you know after 10 years without replacement it just goes without warning but once fixed if that car starts and drives most times I get into it and lets me down less than twice a year then I will consider that for its age its very reliable.

As for the Jeep, they are fine cars, a well looked after one will last a lifetime but that goes for everything.

Unfortunately reliability is subjective, so much of it relies on the history of the specific vehicle thats its difficult to really discuss.

How many of you hear have been around mechanics or auto enthusiasts and hear, don't buy a ford they suck, don't buy a honda there trash etc, its all rubbish people have one bad experience and are too short sighted to realize that the problem was THEIR car nothing else.

Oh and buy the way, the notion that Porsche should have used a timing chain is absurd, they are such old technology and had they been used you can bet your life that many more 944's would be off the road today since the cost of timing chain replacement would far exceed the cars value.

I completely agree that there is scare mongering going on here from time to time, do I think that a collage student on limited budget should buy an old porsche, of course not, do i think that someone with the means to maintain and run the car they really want should be scared away with stories of clutch jobs and head gaskets etc absolutely not!

Cole

Pretty much why I started the thread. Been a motorhead for over 30 years and have spent way more time on the side of the road with Nissans, Toyotas, Audis, Chevys, Jeeps, Renaluts, Chryslers, Dodge, Saab, Scouts, Fords, and VW than I ever have in any of our Porsches.

mikey_audiogeek

The best indication of 944/968 reliability is that y'all have enough time to post on this thread, instead of being stuck on the side of the road or in the garage. And, y'all can obviously afford a computer, so repairs can't be costing that much...