Relocating the Turbo on a 951?
#16
SO here everyone goes calling me a troll again... (nothing new from rennlist!)
Might I suggest to anyone wanting to undertake such a venture as relocating the turbo on a 951 (944 Turbo?) that they do so in secret off the board, pull it off, and then post up proof of the effort. Simply explaining that you did it because it could be done, not to make anyone happy except yourself!
OTHERWISE
You will receive all kinds of haters trying to kill your dream! because any armchair engineer can tell you why you SHOULDNT do it.. but only a truly motivated person can do it! (how many here ever had someone tell them they couldn't do something and then pressed on to prove the hater wrong?)
Stay tuned rennlistville... I am sure great things are waiting in the wings to be revealed to the world!
Might I suggest to anyone wanting to undertake such a venture as relocating the turbo on a 951 (944 Turbo?) that they do so in secret off the board, pull it off, and then post up proof of the effort. Simply explaining that you did it because it could be done, not to make anyone happy except yourself!
OTHERWISE
You will receive all kinds of haters trying to kill your dream! because any armchair engineer can tell you why you SHOULDNT do it.. but only a truly motivated person can do it! (how many here ever had someone tell them they couldn't do something and then pressed on to prove the hater wrong?)
Stay tuned rennlistville... I am sure great things are waiting in the wings to be revealed to the world!
#17
Although I dont immagine the OP of this thread wants to do it on a 16V head..
9FF did..
And there is also a rear mount NA turbo job out there too.. although he poorly chose to use PVC piping in his build... not my first choice, but hey not my car either..
#18
That is the biggest BS I have ever heard. If that's the case, why not mount the turbo remotely in the muffler area?
It's not the heat that spools the turbo, it's the energy. You lose energy when you move the turbo farther away from the source. The 951 is terribly inefficient due to the turbo placement alone, and it's a nightmare to work on because of it.
It's not the heat that spools the turbo, it's the energy. You lose energy when you move the turbo farther away from the source. The 951 is terribly inefficient due to the turbo placement alone, and it's a nightmare to work on because of it.
Could someone please define "terribly"?
Isn't heat energy, and therefore if the heat (energy) were kept in the exhaust stream what difference would it make to move it to the moon (other than the obvious complication of moving the exhaust the roughly 200,000 miles and back?)
I wonder why Porsche put that silly thermal stuffing inside the exhaust.. must have been to complicate the system and make it such a pain in the *** to work on... While on topic I wonder why they used that silly water cooling stuff in the factory turbo setup... I mean, who needs to cool off the center section of the turbo if so much efficiency is lost just getting the energy (heat) to the turbo in the first place?
I wonder if anyone has documented the actual thermal, pressure, or flow losses of the factory 944 turbo setup between the exhaust ports at the head and the turbo inlet / outlet?
Just musing out loud here... but then I am not staying at a holiday inn express tonight but I might have watched a movie about this stuff once upon a time!
#19
How inefficient is it?
Could someone please define "terribly"?
Isn't heat energy, and therefore if the heat (energy) were kept in the exhaust stream what difference would it make to move it to the moon (other than the obvious complication of moving the exhaust the roughly 200,000 miles and back?)
I wonder why Porsche put that silly thermal stuffing inside the exhaust.. must have been to complicate the system and make it such a pain in the *** to work on... While on topic I wonder why they used that silly water cooling stuff in the factory turbo setup... I mean, who needs to cool off the center section of the turbo if so much efficiency is lost just getting the energy (heat) to the turbo in the first place?
I wonder if anyone has documented the actual thermal, pressure, or flow losses of the factory 944 turbo setup between the exhaust ports at the head and the turbo inlet / outlet?
Just musing out loud here... but then I am not staying at a holiday inn express tonight but I might have watched a movie about this stuff once upon a time!
Could someone please define "terribly"?
Isn't heat energy, and therefore if the heat (energy) were kept in the exhaust stream what difference would it make to move it to the moon (other than the obvious complication of moving the exhaust the roughly 200,000 miles and back?)
I wonder why Porsche put that silly thermal stuffing inside the exhaust.. must have been to complicate the system and make it such a pain in the *** to work on... While on topic I wonder why they used that silly water cooling stuff in the factory turbo setup... I mean, who needs to cool off the center section of the turbo if so much efficiency is lost just getting the energy (heat) to the turbo in the first place?
I wonder if anyone has documented the actual thermal, pressure, or flow losses of the factory 944 turbo setup between the exhaust ports at the head and the turbo inlet / outlet?
Just musing out loud here... but then I am not staying at a holiday inn express tonight but I might have watched a movie about this stuff once upon a time!
#20
931's definitely suffered from their turbo placement. Porsche also learnt from endurance racing:
924 turbo
924 carrera gt
924 carrera gts
924 carrera gtr
note the turbo is mounted similar to a 931 but much more forward and higher.
porsche 924 Carrera gtp
porsche 924 carrera gtp (944LM)
Notice the direction the race cars went?
p.s the last big twin turbo 951 fiasco:
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...rbo-951-a.html
#21
http://usuarios.multimania.es/cporsc.../tag_turbo.gif
Here is another engine with some distance from the exhaust port to the turbo that made decent power, granted the similarities end there but some of the same engineers may have been involved.
Here is another engine with some distance from the exhaust port to the turbo that made decent power, granted the similarities end there but some of the same engineers may have been involved.
#22
Not a Porsche, but similar in displacement and size...
Here's is one of my old Turbo 2.3 Ford motors that i built.. and it was prior to installing a front mount intercooler (or in this case, an intercoller period..)
Here's is one of my old Turbo 2.3 Ford motors that i built.. and it was prior to installing a front mount intercooler (or in this case, an intercoller period..)
#25
#28
I'm impressed people even CONSIDER stuff like this. Most of us have enough trouble keeping a mildly modded 951 running well and reliably.
When you guys figure out this whole turbo thing, please work on a transverse mounted engine.
When you guys figure out this whole turbo thing, please work on a transverse mounted engine.
#29
That is the biggest BS I have ever heard. If that's the case, why not mount the turbo remotely in the muffler area?
It's not the heat that spools the turbo, it's the energy. You lose energy when you move the turbo farther away from the source. The 951 is terribly inefficient due to the turbo placement alone, and it's a nightmare to work on because of it.
It's not the heat that spools the turbo, it's the energy. You lose energy when you move the turbo farther away from the source. The 951 is terribly inefficient due to the turbo placement alone, and it's a nightmare to work on because of it.
Now technology has moved on and it may very well be possible to put the turbo in a hoter enviroment and make it last. There are high power race motors that have right side turbos. These are few however and the ones that I know of often put the turbo in the passenger foot wheel after some major cutting.
The turbo placement in the 951 met the goals of porsche back in the early 80's. Remember the entire 944 family was designed to to price point and performance point. It was never designed to be the flag ship of Porsche. That design ethos left the 944 only adequate in a number of areas.
These days you can chose all the right side turbo placement you want, but packaging in the tight engine bay become and issue. Most fined it much easier and simpler to work off the basic left side placement of the turbo and just live with draw backs of the extra exhaust pumbing.
#30
Sure it does, especially on a car that already has a factory turbo option. The #1 reason why the remote systems are popular on Camaro's and pick-up trucks is ease of installation and cost. Nobody is going that route because it's the preferred location for the turbo's.
Taking a car that's already turbocharged from the factory and moving the turbo 10 feet away from the engine is a horrible idea. Designing a turbo system from scratch on a car that never had a factory option, it's a case of "better than nothing". Eliminating custom exhaust manifolds greatly reduces the cost and fabricating involved with turbocharging a car. That doesn't apply to a 944 since there is already a factory turbo manifold.
Taking a car that's already turbocharged from the factory and moving the turbo 10 feet away from the engine is a horrible idea. Designing a turbo system from scratch on a car that never had a factory option, it's a case of "better than nothing". Eliminating custom exhaust manifolds greatly reduces the cost and fabricating involved with turbocharging a car. That doesn't apply to a 944 since there is already a factory turbo manifold.