Harness bar--which one?
10-04-2002 | 01:51 PM
#16
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,170
Likes: 1
From: North NJ, USA
[quote]Originally posted by Craig_S:
<strong>I personally wouldn't use a harness bar without a roll bar in the car. It's fine for autocrossing, but on a road course it can be a huge problem in the event of a roll over. Do a quick internet search for pictures of cars that have gone over on their roof- and then imagine if you were strapped into your seat with no room to duck.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 944 has a substantial roof. I've seen pictures of rolled 944's and there was very little intrusion into the cabin area. While a Honduh's roof may collapse in a rollover, a 944's roof is less likely to collapse. (Disclaimer: it can happen, but it's less likely.)
And regarding the 'you can't duck with a harness bar' in a rollover: I don't think you'd be able to duck no matter what protection you were wearing, due to the g-forces being exerted on your body, so IMO, it doesn't really matter.
I run on DE's with only a harness bar, but I must agree that a more substantial roll cage would offer better protection.
This is my opinion: A harness bar offers adequate protection for autocrossing and DE's, but some type of roll cage would be preferrable for DE's. Roll cages are required for club racing, spec racing..etc, so there's no option there.
Just my $0.42.
-Zoltan.
<strong>I personally wouldn't use a harness bar without a roll bar in the car. It's fine for autocrossing, but on a road course it can be a huge problem in the event of a roll over. Do a quick internet search for pictures of cars that have gone over on their roof- and then imagine if you were strapped into your seat with no room to duck.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 944 has a substantial roof. I've seen pictures of rolled 944's and there was very little intrusion into the cabin area. While a Honduh's roof may collapse in a rollover, a 944's roof is less likely to collapse. (Disclaimer: it can happen, but it's less likely.)
And regarding the 'you can't duck with a harness bar' in a rollover: I don't think you'd be able to duck no matter what protection you were wearing, due to the g-forces being exerted on your body, so IMO, it doesn't really matter.
I run on DE's with only a harness bar, but I must agree that a more substantial roll cage would offer better protection.
This is my opinion: A harness bar offers adequate protection for autocrossing and DE's, but some type of roll cage would be preferrable for DE's. Roll cages are required for club racing, spec racing..etc, so there's no option there.
Just my $0.42.
-Zoltan.
10-04-2002 | 02:17 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,700
Likes: 72
From: Charlotte, NC
This topic of the saftey of a harness bar has come up a lot, IMHO (and many driver school instructors) a harness bar is more a saftey risk than it is anything. If you were in a roll over with the harness on you could not get your head out of the way and you risk some serious injuries if not death.
People say that roll overs don't really happen at Drivers School and auto-x, I have never seen one at an Auto-x, but have heard of it, and I have seen a rollover at every third drivers school I've gone too. So they do happen. I had pics on my computer of what happens in some of these rollovers and it is not pretty. A 944 has a strong shell, but not strong enough to protect the roof coming in after a big off. If your head was close to the roof (as mine would be being 6'3) then it might only take a couple inches of the roof being pushed in to end my life.
I for one will not run harnesses with out at least a roll bar. Many instructors will use the normal seatbelts if you have harnesses and no roll bar. Why is this? Because they don't want to add any more risk that is nessasary.
For all those will harness bars, I wish you good luck and ask you to be cautious. If the soil is soft or sandy right off the track do not jerk the wheel to try to get it back on, ride it out and slowly regain control (really always good adivce no matter what).
I will get off my soap box now, in the end it comes down to personal decisions.
People say that roll overs don't really happen at Drivers School and auto-x, I have never seen one at an Auto-x, but have heard of it, and I have seen a rollover at every third drivers school I've gone too. So they do happen. I had pics on my computer of what happens in some of these rollovers and it is not pretty. A 944 has a strong shell, but not strong enough to protect the roof coming in after a big off. If your head was close to the roof (as mine would be being 6'3) then it might only take a couple inches of the roof being pushed in to end my life.
I for one will not run harnesses with out at least a roll bar. Many instructors will use the normal seatbelts if you have harnesses and no roll bar. Why is this? Because they don't want to add any more risk that is nessasary.
For all those will harness bars, I wish you good luck and ask you to be cautious. If the soil is soft or sandy right off the track do not jerk the wheel to try to get it back on, ride it out and slowly regain control (really always good adivce no matter what).
I will get off my soap box now, in the end it comes down to personal decisions.
10-04-2002 | 02:56 PM
#18
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,170
Likes: 1
From: North NJ, USA
Ian,
You have more experience with DE's than I do. I have a question: have you seen first hand where a harness without a rollcage adversely effected the outcome of a 944 rollover?
BTW: A rollbar will probably be my next 'upgrade' (Safety is always my first choice in upgrades!)
Regards,
-Z.
You have more experience with DE's than I do. I have a question: have you seen first hand where a harness without a rollcage adversely effected the outcome of a 944 rollover?
BTW: A rollbar will probably be my next 'upgrade' (Safety is always my first choice in upgrades!)
Regards,
-Z.
10-04-2002 | 03:28 PM
#19
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,643
Likes: 8
From: Phoenix, Az
Without a doubt a roll cage is the safest on a track.
A roll bar is second to that and can argued safer on the street since there less chance of bare head to roll bar contact. (the padding aint that thick)
What I don't understand is how a harness bar & racing harness is LESS safe than stock 3 point seat belts?
I don't think you will get any agument for harness bar safety vs roll bar, but harness bar & harness vs stock 3 point belts??
How is it safer with 3 point belts vs a 4,5,or 6 point harness?
Please fill me in.... My father runs a harness bar and 5 point belts in his turbo for DE use and the harness is much better in holding him in place. Why is this less safe than using only the stock seat belts?? If we are doing something wrong I want to fix it!
A roll bar is second to that and can argued safer on the street since there less chance of bare head to roll bar contact. (the padding aint that thick)
What I don't understand is how a harness bar & racing harness is LESS safe than stock 3 point seat belts?
I don't think you will get any agument for harness bar safety vs roll bar, but harness bar & harness vs stock 3 point belts??
How is it safer with 3 point belts vs a 4,5,or 6 point harness?
Please fill me in.... My father runs a harness bar and 5 point belts in his turbo for DE use and the harness is much better in holding him in place. Why is this less safe than using only the stock seat belts?? If we are doing something wrong I want to fix it!
10-04-2002 | 03:32 PM
#20
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,170
Likes: 1
From: North NJ, USA
M758:
I think Ian's (and other's) argument is that if you roll a 944 with only a harness bar, then you don't have the ability to move your head to the side to get out of the way of a roof crushing in on you, and that you would be able to do that with just the 3-point belts.
My argument has been:
1. The centripical forces won't allow you to move your head no matter how you're strapped in: you're just a Raggedy Andy doll in the event of a severe rollover.
2. Our roofs are robust enough to handle MOST roll-overs.
-Zoltan.
I think Ian's (and other's) argument is that if you roll a 944 with only a harness bar, then you don't have the ability to move your head to the side to get out of the way of a roof crushing in on you, and that you would be able to do that with just the 3-point belts.
My argument has been:
1. The centripical forces won't allow you to move your head no matter how you're strapped in: you're just a Raggedy Andy doll in the event of a severe rollover.
2. Our roofs are robust enough to handle MOST roll-overs.
-Zoltan.
10-04-2002 | 03:42 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,700
Likes: 72
From: Charlotte, NC
[quote]Originally posted by Z-man:
<strong>M758:
I think Ian's (and other's) argument is that if you roll a 944 with only a harness bar, then you don't have the ability to move your head to the side to get out of the way of a roof crushing in on you, and that you would be able to do that with just the 3-point belts.
My argument has been:
1. The centripical forces won't allow you to move your head no matter how you're strapped in: you're just a Raggedy Andy doll in the event of a severe rollover.
2. Our roofs are robust enough to handle MOST roll-overs.
-Zoltan.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You might not be able to physically get yourself out of the way, but think of it this way, if the roof was coming down and pushed on your helmet with a stock seatbelt you would be pushed to the side, or forward, there is range of movement that would be allowed. Now you pin your shoulders against the seat, allowing for very minimal movement and you have the same roof coming down on the head, well it doesn't have anywhere to go. The foces would be directed at the spine or into the neck, either one is not a good thing.
Believe me i'm not saying that not having harness is going to completely prevent injuries in a roll over. Because that is out of your hands at that point and time, fate has taken over. But I think that running a harness increaces the risk of a serious injury or death when used with out a roll bar.
If you add a roll bar or cage, I'll will switch teams and say the 5pt prevents more injuries because it does keep you still. But that is a completely different situation in my mind.
I am not claiming to be an expert on the subject, but after a lot of discussions with a lot of different people this is the conclusion I came to.
<strong>M758:
I think Ian's (and other's) argument is that if you roll a 944 with only a harness bar, then you don't have the ability to move your head to the side to get out of the way of a roof crushing in on you, and that you would be able to do that with just the 3-point belts.
My argument has been:
1. The centripical forces won't allow you to move your head no matter how you're strapped in: you're just a Raggedy Andy doll in the event of a severe rollover.
2. Our roofs are robust enough to handle MOST roll-overs.
-Zoltan.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You might not be able to physically get yourself out of the way, but think of it this way, if the roof was coming down and pushed on your helmet with a stock seatbelt you would be pushed to the side, or forward, there is range of movement that would be allowed. Now you pin your shoulders against the seat, allowing for very minimal movement and you have the same roof coming down on the head, well it doesn't have anywhere to go. The foces would be directed at the spine or into the neck, either one is not a good thing.
Believe me i'm not saying that not having harness is going to completely prevent injuries in a roll over. Because that is out of your hands at that point and time, fate has taken over. But I think that running a harness increaces the risk of a serious injury or death when used with out a roll bar.
If you add a roll bar or cage, I'll will switch teams and say the 5pt prevents more injuries because it does keep you still. But that is a completely different situation in my mind.
I am not claiming to be an expert on the subject, but after a lot of discussions with a lot of different people this is the conclusion I came to.
10-04-2002 | 03:55 PM
#22
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,643
Likes: 8
From: Phoenix, Az
[quote]Originally posted by ian:
<strong>
You might not be able to physically get yourself out of the way, but think of it this way, if the roof was coming down and pushed on your helmet with a stock seatbelt you would be pushed to the side, or forward, there is range of movement that would be allowed. Now you pin your shoulders against the seat, allowing for very minimal movement and you have the same roof coming down on the head, well it doesn't have anywhere to go. The foces would be directed at the spine or into the neck, either one is not a good thing.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok I understand what you are saying, but how much movement do to get with 3point belts? Yeah you can move a low speeds, but during a crash the loading time decreases so that the belt locks. If the belt is locked you get a little more movement than a harness, but that would mean that you are also moving under the belt and can slide up toward the roof. It is my contention that roof collapse will be low in low speed rolls and much higher in high speed rolls. In the high speed roll it would see much safer to not flying around in side the cabin.
Also most track incidents are plannar in nature that is to mean happeing with wheels on the ground in the plane of the ground. In those cases a harness is step-up from 3 point belts.... is it not? Does the greater likelihood of those incidents vs roll over outweight the issue we are discussing?
<strong>
You might not be able to physically get yourself out of the way, but think of it this way, if the roof was coming down and pushed on your helmet with a stock seatbelt you would be pushed to the side, or forward, there is range of movement that would be allowed. Now you pin your shoulders against the seat, allowing for very minimal movement and you have the same roof coming down on the head, well it doesn't have anywhere to go. The foces would be directed at the spine or into the neck, either one is not a good thing.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok I understand what you are saying, but how much movement do to get with 3point belts? Yeah you can move a low speeds, but during a crash the loading time decreases so that the belt locks. If the belt is locked you get a little more movement than a harness, but that would mean that you are also moving under the belt and can slide up toward the roof. It is my contention that roof collapse will be low in low speed rolls and much higher in high speed rolls. In the high speed roll it would see much safer to not flying around in side the cabin.
Also most track incidents are plannar in nature that is to mean happeing with wheels on the ground in the plane of the ground. In those cases a harness is step-up from 3 point belts.... is it not? Does the greater likelihood of those incidents vs roll over outweight the issue we are discussing?
10-04-2002 | 07:21 PM
#23
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,015
Likes: 0
From: Long Island, New York
the redline roll bar looks good to me, he said he wanted $200 deposit and the rest of the money when he was done. ($589 total, shipped)
next summer i want to try a DE and hopefully i will be able to save up for the roll bar and harnesses before that.
next summer i want to try a DE and hopefully i will be able to save up for the roll bar and harnesses before that.
10-05-2002 | 10:30 AM
#24
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,384
Likes: 1
From: Cleveland, OH
HI guys,
The Redline Rollbar is really the way to go if you can spare the cash. It only takes me about 15-20 minutes to put it in or take it out and the craftmanship is first rate. The one problem is you need to be prepared to wait. John hand builds each and everyone and it takes a looooong time to get it. I waited over 3 months, and that was putting in an order when he was just starting a run of bars. I made the mistake of ordering in May and not getting it until August and consequentially missing all of my summer DE's. So my advice is get your money in now and give John the winter to work on it.
They are worth the money, and there is nothing else on the market that can compare with it.
The Redline Rollbar is really the way to go if you can spare the cash. It only takes me about 15-20 minutes to put it in or take it out and the craftmanship is first rate. The one problem is you need to be prepared to wait. John hand builds each and everyone and it takes a looooong time to get it. I waited over 3 months, and that was putting in an order when he was just starting a run of bars. I made the mistake of ordering in May and not getting it until August and consequentially missing all of my summer DE's. So my advice is get your money in now and give John the winter to work on it.
They are worth the money, and there is nothing else on the market that can compare with it.
10-05-2002 | 11:35 AM
#25
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 26
From: Florence, SC
Any idea of how the redline bars perform when the car actually rolls? I would love to get one, but the author describes the bar as really more the ultimate harness bar and says nothing about rollovers. Just curious,
Jason
Jason
10-05-2002 | 11:41 AM
#26
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
From: CT
[quote]Originally posted by ian:
<strong> People say that roll overs don't really happen at Drivers School and auto-x, I have never seen one at an Auto-x, but have heard of it, and I have seen a rollover at every third drivers school I've gone too. So they do happen. I had pics on my computer of what happens in some of these rollovers and it is not pretty. A 944 has a strong shell, but not strong enough to protect the roof coming in after a big off. If your head was close to the roof (as mine would be being 6'3) then it might only take a couple inches of the roof being pushed in to end my life.
I for one will not run harnesses with out at least a roll bar. Many instructors will use the normal seatbelts if you have harnesses and no roll bar. Why is this? Because they don't want to add any more risk that is nessasary.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ian's right -
The 944 has a clear reputation for "going flat" in a rollover. The A pillars in particular are not very strong. It can and does happen, I've seen it. (no serious injury, fortunately)
It's not a question of "ducking" in a rollover, its a question of being firmly harnessed in upright against the seatback when the clearance between the roof and your helmet goes negative. Instead of your torso moving or bending to (hopefully) accomodate, your neck becomes the failure point.
Harnesses without a rollbar are clearly a hazard in a rollover.
On the subject of using harnesses with stock seats, many PCA regions don't allow it on the track because of the likelihood of the shoulder straps slipping off. You're better off with stock belts. The H straps and the around-the-headrest straps aren't really very effective, though I think a proper sternum strap can work.
Matt
<strong> People say that roll overs don't really happen at Drivers School and auto-x, I have never seen one at an Auto-x, but have heard of it, and I have seen a rollover at every third drivers school I've gone too. So they do happen. I had pics on my computer of what happens in some of these rollovers and it is not pretty. A 944 has a strong shell, but not strong enough to protect the roof coming in after a big off. If your head was close to the roof (as mine would be being 6'3) then it might only take a couple inches of the roof being pushed in to end my life.
I for one will not run harnesses with out at least a roll bar. Many instructors will use the normal seatbelts if you have harnesses and no roll bar. Why is this? Because they don't want to add any more risk that is nessasary.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ian's right -
The 944 has a clear reputation for "going flat" in a rollover. The A pillars in particular are not very strong. It can and does happen, I've seen it. (no serious injury, fortunately)
It's not a question of "ducking" in a rollover, its a question of being firmly harnessed in upright against the seatback when the clearance between the roof and your helmet goes negative. Instead of your torso moving or bending to (hopefully) accomodate, your neck becomes the failure point.
Harnesses without a rollbar are clearly a hazard in a rollover.
On the subject of using harnesses with stock seats, many PCA regions don't allow it on the track because of the likelihood of the shoulder straps slipping off. You're better off with stock belts. The H straps and the around-the-headrest straps aren't really very effective, though I think a proper sternum strap can work.
Matt
10-08-2002 | 07:05 PM
#28
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,668
Likes: 0
From: Espoo, Finland
Just came to my mind; while the point on the risks faced when running harnesses without a roll bar sound valid, wouldn't the harnesses provide better protection in the case of actually hitting something - like going sideways into a guardrail?
For me, that's way more likely to happen than flipping the car over... <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
For me, that's way more likely to happen than flipping the car over... <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
10-08-2002 | 07:37 PM
#29
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,015
Likes: 0
From: Long Island, New York
photos like that are the reason why i havent tried DE yet (the 944 was my only car, would be a bad thing to crash). But i just bought a BMW as my daily driver so next year i will probably be getting that redline rollbar and go to some DE 
10-09-2002 | 03:08 AM
#30
Unaffiliated
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,286
Likes: 209
From: Cleveland
That photo was taken at Mid-Ohio, at a drivers ed. I second the notion that John needs significant lead time to make a redline bar. Been there, done that. Small downside, I'm big..6"4.5, and I lost one click of recline I usually use while driving. SO, now I'm a bit more upright and a bit less comfortable with Mr. Redline in place. BUT, it's a FAR superior piece than any friggin harness bar.
By the way, anyone want a weltmeister harness bar, cheap? I've got two, one early thin, one later fat. Buy the fat one, the thin one is free. Let me know. (didn't think so)
{EDIT} The weltmeisters are SOLD..THANKS!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
By the way, anyone want a weltmeister harness bar, cheap? I've got two, one early thin, one later fat. Buy the fat one, the thin one is free. Let me know. (didn't think so)
{EDIT} The weltmeisters are SOLD..THANKS!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />