OT: Maryland law question....
10-19-2002, 06:28 AM
#16
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Wow Iceman- That sounds like seeing things that are microscopic, almost. What if you were one of those- make your own bullets- kind of guys? I guess you STILL have to buy gunpowder from SOMEWHERE, but, if you bought a LOT of it, you MIGHT be able to mix lot's of batches of it together- therby rendering the search for the specific batch much more difficult(?)...
SOOO MANY ways to catch people, yet some of the smartest people (criminals) in the world get caught, while some of the dumbest aren't even suspected...
Still, no one mentioned how the internal licking feature worked- anyone?
I saw a movie, long ago, I think John-Boy was the main charater- two guys took their wives to the beach. John-Boy's wife shot someone and set him up (JB) through an elaborate plan. He had taken the gun from her when it happened, and she somehow got him to fire it too (can't remember how). Anyway, the cops tested his hand (that was just a part of it)- they asked how SHE could have fired it and NOT had it show on her hand- he suddenly remembered her wearing rubber gloves- he was in so deep it didn't really fly. Anyway, I'm not even sure that would work, as it could probably go all the way up your arm- in her case, she was wearing a bathing suit, if I remember correctly, and I may not. The normal situation would probably be a clothed person, so the clothes could be tested too (if they were found).
Damn- testing your hand to see if you've recently fired a gun, spraying Luminol(sp?) to check for blood, looking for specs of what-ever-the-fu** in residual gunpowder, etc... It sounds like they'll eventually be able to tell if one entered a particular room, 69yrs ago, just by analyzing the air molecules or something- what would George Orwell say?
SOOO MANY ways to catch people, yet some of the smartest people (criminals) in the world get caught, while some of the dumbest aren't even suspected...
Still, no one mentioned how the internal licking feature worked- anyone?
I saw a movie, long ago, I think John-Boy was the main charater- two guys took their wives to the beach. John-Boy's wife shot someone and set him up (JB) through an elaborate plan. He had taken the gun from her when it happened, and she somehow got him to fire it too (can't remember how). Anyway, the cops tested his hand (that was just a part of it)- they asked how SHE could have fired it and NOT had it show on her hand- he suddenly remembered her wearing rubber gloves- he was in so deep it didn't really fly. Anyway, I'm not even sure that would work, as it could probably go all the way up your arm- in her case, she was wearing a bathing suit, if I remember correctly, and I may not. The normal situation would probably be a clothed person, so the clothes could be tested too (if they were found).
Damn- testing your hand to see if you've recently fired a gun, spraying Luminol(sp?) to check for blood, looking for specs of what-ever-the-fu** in residual gunpowder, etc... It sounds like they'll eventually be able to tell if one entered a particular room, 69yrs ago, just by analyzing the air molecules or something- what would George Orwell say?
10-19-2002, 08:59 AM
#17
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[quote]Originally posted by IceShark:
<strong>This fracturing bullet myth, ala Dianne Feinstein of the left Coast, really jerks me off. It is total BS as any serious shooter over age 6 knows.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What is the fracturing bullet myth you speak of? US Air Martials use Glasers, and I think they would fall under the heading of "fracturing" or "fragmentable".
As for testing your hand's to see if you have fired a gun recently, I heard the residue stayed on your hands for about 3 days.
<strong>This fracturing bullet myth, ala Dianne Feinstein of the left Coast, really jerks me off. It is total BS as any serious shooter over age 6 knows.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What is the fracturing bullet myth you speak of? US Air Martials use Glasers, and I think they would fall under the heading of "fracturing" or "fragmentable".
As for testing your hand's to see if you have fired a gun recently, I heard the residue stayed on your hands for about 3 days.
10-19-2002, 11:20 AM
#18
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Glasers would be a wise choice for Air Cops, as It would fragment and not go through the side of a plane.(and as a bonus it would really mess up that terrorist! no doctor could patch up that fist sized hole!)
10-19-2002, 11:29 AM
#19
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
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"No better stopping power, Sid. Actually worse."
Based upon what? And why would you compare that to hunting 1000lbs game. You should NEVER use frangible for hunting.
Standard .45 230grain@850fps
Compared to .45 frang at 155grain@1400fps
Even without franging it has more muzzle energy.
As for ex mil. I am, my partner is, most of our customers are ex mil, current mil or police. We've even worked with the HRT snipers (Not on frangible stuff)
We also had a respected firearms instructor take out some .357sigFrang (Not to be confused with .357magnum) he used it in deer hunting (again not recomended) if your a hunter you should know that a .357sig is not considered a hunting round. He ended up bagging 3 deer. The first dropped like a bag of rocks. The last was a neck shot and it didn't get more than 15 feet before it dropped.
They examined the wound channel (and took pictures) and it was larger than what a rifle would have done.
Don't know what Fienstien said, but that's only because I can't stand to listen to her.
Spacecowboy: Probably the reason you have no ammo is that they are having problems at certain ranges using lead ammunition and primers. The government is buying up a load of Lead free but it has to work it's way through the system. The industry isn't set up to manufacture that much.
Based upon what? And why would you compare that to hunting 1000lbs game. You should NEVER use frangible for hunting.
Standard .45 230grain@850fps
Compared to .45 frang at 155grain@1400fps
Even without franging it has more muzzle energy.
As for ex mil. I am, my partner is, most of our customers are ex mil, current mil or police. We've even worked with the HRT snipers (Not on frangible stuff)
We also had a respected firearms instructor take out some .357sigFrang (Not to be confused with .357magnum) he used it in deer hunting (again not recomended) if your a hunter you should know that a .357sig is not considered a hunting round. He ended up bagging 3 deer. The first dropped like a bag of rocks. The last was a neck shot and it didn't get more than 15 feet before it dropped.
They examined the wound channel (and took pictures) and it was larger than what a rifle would have done.
Don't know what Fienstien said, but that's only because I can't stand to listen to her.
Spacecowboy: Probably the reason you have no ammo is that they are having problems at certain ranges using lead ammunition and primers. The government is buying up a load of Lead free but it has to work it's way through the system. The industry isn't set up to manufacture that much.
10-19-2002, 01:07 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Sid, you are popping up the velocity in your example, and by quite a bit. Speed gets quite a bit more bang as the energy is at a square function.
Olin actually made a frag bullet for police work to prevent the projectile from going through many thin apartment walls and hitting some poor kid having a bowl of soup. They got into a real political mess over that from the anti-gun people ... just try ask a rep about it that doesn't know you. A pretty serious silence. And Olin had to do a very hyped sales job to try and convince cops to trust their life to the round. This is likely where all the frag myths were started.
Sure a frag projectile can kill someone via bleed and all the energy is deposited in the target. Just doesn't have much penetration.
You shoot your rounds this fall and I will shoot mine. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
Robby, I reload ammunition and you are correct that the powder has to be purchased somewhere. Well, I guess you could cook it up yourself. But they would insert the taggent on each batch. I don't know how many different codes you would need to make this useful. Maybe I can make some money selling to crooks on the 10 pounds of powder I still have from 20 years ago?
That would be the problem, but usually crooks are sort of dumb (otherwise they would be doing legit theft work like running WorldCom or Enron) so it will be another useful tool for LEOs.
Olin actually made a frag bullet for police work to prevent the projectile from going through many thin apartment walls and hitting some poor kid having a bowl of soup. They got into a real political mess over that from the anti-gun people ... just try ask a rep about it that doesn't know you. A pretty serious silence. And Olin had to do a very hyped sales job to try and convince cops to trust their life to the round. This is likely where all the frag myths were started.
Sure a frag projectile can kill someone via bleed and all the energy is deposited in the target. Just doesn't have much penetration.
You shoot your rounds this fall and I will shoot mine. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
Robby, I reload ammunition and you are correct that the powder has to be purchased somewhere. Well, I guess you could cook it up yourself. But they would insert the taggent on each batch. I don't know how many different codes you would need to make this useful. Maybe I can make some money selling to crooks on the 10 pounds of powder I still have from 20 years ago?
That would be the problem, but usually crooks are sort of dumb (otherwise they would be doing legit theft work like running WorldCom or Enron) so it will be another useful tool for LEOs.
10-19-2002, 01:59 PM
#21
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IceShark,
There is also all that Russian/Chinese/Romanian/Brazillian/South African ammo that is 15+ years old. We can just take those rounds apart and sell the powder out of them.
There is also all that Russian/Chinese/Romanian/Brazillian/South African ammo that is 15+ years old. We can just take those rounds apart and sell the powder out of them.
10-19-2002, 02:53 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Tabor, Robby is looking for a new job. Don't give him any crazy ideas that might blow his whole apartment building up. <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
10-19-2002, 06:54 PM
#23
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
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The speeds I used are from actual measurements. A hot 45 ball will go at most about 920 930. We have measured ours at 1400+ (I also happen to pick up some mistakes today 200 grain hollow point going at 1200+, definitely not for practice)
No frangible doesn't have the penetration. It's not supposed to that's the whole idea. You don't want the round to over-penetrate, you want the energy in the target (for self-defense). In ballistic gelatin we get 6 to 8 inches with .45. You don't really need more pentration than that.
During gelatin testing we had some problems as there was so much energy we were literally knocking the 30lbs Gelatin block off the table.
Don't know why not penetrating walls is something the anti gun people would be against???
As for what your shooting this fall. I said that frang is absolutely no good for hunting. Makes a mess of the meat and you get pieces of copper and tin everywhere.
If you hunt with pistol we can get you some nice Jacketed hollow point that works wonderfully.
BTW Robby: Mixing different powders is a very very bad thing to do. They have different chemical compositions that react well (from a creating energy standpoint) and can completely change burn rate. It's a good way to blow your gun up.
No frangible doesn't have the penetration. It's not supposed to that's the whole idea. You don't want the round to over-penetrate, you want the energy in the target (for self-defense). In ballistic gelatin we get 6 to 8 inches with .45. You don't really need more pentration than that.
During gelatin testing we had some problems as there was so much energy we were literally knocking the 30lbs Gelatin block off the table.
Don't know why not penetrating walls is something the anti gun people would be against???
As for what your shooting this fall. I said that frang is absolutely no good for hunting. Makes a mess of the meat and you get pieces of copper and tin everywhere.
If you hunt with pistol we can get you some nice Jacketed hollow point that works wonderfully.
BTW Robby: Mixing different powders is a very very bad thing to do. They have different chemical compositions that react well (from a creating energy standpoint) and can completely change burn rate. It's a good way to blow your gun up.
10-20-2002, 01:00 AM
#24
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[quote]Originally posted by IceShark:Tabor, Robby is looking for a new job. Don't give him any crazy ideas that might blow his whole apartment building up. <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <hr></blockquote>
When if I'm ready to learn to pack my own loads, I'll be sure to learn at someone else's house- might make a trip to St. Paul, so I could learn in YOUR house- heh, heh, heh <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> YOU know why I'm laughing...
Sidvicous-
**************************************************
Mixing different powders is a very very bad thing to do...different chemical compositions...good way to blow your gun up.
**************************************************
I almost asked that- only I was thinking from the perspective of actually blowing myself up, or, something like Iceshark said. I assume you have to be pretty careful w/gun powder anyway, even if it is of the same type...
BTW- where did your name come from? Sid- ? Viscous- viscous LSD? Just curious. I originally thought it was Sid V. of The Sex Pistols- not sure how you spell the last name- can't get to a dictionary right now- viscious?
Also- I'm NOT trying to learn how to make any home cocktails- I'm not asking these questions to go postal on anyone, or to try to find new ways to get into trouble. I'm just like learning stuff...
My problem w/a controlling government and these anti-gun *********, is that they just assume ALL cops are clean, and that if there were no guns, that criminals would never get them, there would be no more violent robberies, etc- complete BS- there MIGHT even be MORE violence... Get rid of guns? Hell, people make zip-guns in jail. It would create a market for guns- like the BS drug war...
My favorite example is the late 80's steroid prob. I'll let everyone in on a little secret- THERE WAS NO STEROID PROBLEM UNTIL THEY WERE COMPLETELY SCAPEGOATED AND RE-SCHEDULED! Calling them a prob created the prob. Instead of clean, safe, legitimate Rx's being filled by real pharmacies, and patients being monitered by real doctors, etc, the "doctors" became any crazy buffed-up guy w/a trunkfull. When $$$ started rolling in, labs started popping up- the first ones actually sold real stuff (and safe, based on studies & lab tests). Eventually, labs sprang up everywhere- most didn't make legitmate products- often they were really dangerous chemicals that could really hurt people. I could go on- it interests me, but doesn't interest everyone- it's a lot like the drug war, but this is more of a lounge issue...
What really bothers me about gun control are bitchy-*** cun*s like Rosie O- I saw her little BS rant "...NRA- WE ARE PUTTING YOU ON NOTICE!!!" Easy for that tit to say- she has plenty of $$$ for security gaurds & off-duty cops who ALWAYS have their guns, etc...I better stop now, this could go on forever...
Thanks for the insight- if anyone finds out about the specific Maryland law that I heard about, please let me know...
Thanks,
Robby
When if I'm ready to learn to pack my own loads, I'll be sure to learn at someone else's house- might make a trip to St. Paul, so I could learn in YOUR house- heh, heh, heh <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> YOU know why I'm laughing...
Sidvicous-
**************************************************
Mixing different powders is a very very bad thing to do...different chemical compositions...good way to blow your gun up.
**************************************************
I almost asked that- only I was thinking from the perspective of actually blowing myself up, or, something like Iceshark said. I assume you have to be pretty careful w/gun powder anyway, even if it is of the same type...
BTW- where did your name come from? Sid- ? Viscous- viscous LSD? Just curious. I originally thought it was Sid V. of The Sex Pistols- not sure how you spell the last name- can't get to a dictionary right now- viscious?
Also- I'm NOT trying to learn how to make any home cocktails- I'm not asking these questions to go postal on anyone, or to try to find new ways to get into trouble. I'm just like learning stuff...
My problem w/a controlling government and these anti-gun *********, is that they just assume ALL cops are clean, and that if there were no guns, that criminals would never get them, there would be no more violent robberies, etc- complete BS- there MIGHT even be MORE violence... Get rid of guns? Hell, people make zip-guns in jail. It would create a market for guns- like the BS drug war...
My favorite example is the late 80's steroid prob. I'll let everyone in on a little secret- THERE WAS NO STEROID PROBLEM UNTIL THEY WERE COMPLETELY SCAPEGOATED AND RE-SCHEDULED! Calling them a prob created the prob. Instead of clean, safe, legitimate Rx's being filled by real pharmacies, and patients being monitered by real doctors, etc, the "doctors" became any crazy buffed-up guy w/a trunkfull. When $$$ started rolling in, labs started popping up- the first ones actually sold real stuff (and safe, based on studies & lab tests). Eventually, labs sprang up everywhere- most didn't make legitmate products- often they were really dangerous chemicals that could really hurt people. I could go on- it interests me, but doesn't interest everyone- it's a lot like the drug war, but this is more of a lounge issue...
What really bothers me about gun control are bitchy-*** cun*s like Rosie O- I saw her little BS rant "...NRA- WE ARE PUTTING YOU ON NOTICE!!!" Easy for that tit to say- she has plenty of $$$ for security gaurds & off-duty cops who ALWAYS have their guns, etc...I better stop now, this could go on forever...
Thanks for the insight- if anyone finds out about the specific Maryland law that I heard about, please let me know...
Thanks,
Robby
10-20-2002, 03:43 AM
#25
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
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Napoleon
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Came from when I was trying to get a screen name years ago. Was trying for Sid Vicious. that was taken. So I as I was trying different permutations I mis-typed Viscous and it took.
Been using it ever since.
Been using it ever since.
10-20-2002, 02:10 PM
#26
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[quote]Originally posted by SidViscous:Came from when I was trying to get a screen name years ago. Was trying for Sid Vicious. that was taken. So I as I was trying different permutations I mis-typed Viscous and it took.<hr></blockquote>
That's kind of funny actually. When I first read it, I really thought it WAS Sid Vicious- I didn't learn until I made that reference to Sid & Nancy in another post. I guess you could use it both ways though- vicious/viscous LSD... Anwyay....
That's kind of funny actually. When I first read it, I really thought it WAS Sid Vicious- I didn't learn until I made that reference to Sid & Nancy in another post. I guess you could use it both ways though- vicious/viscous LSD... Anwyay....
10-20-2002, 06:04 PM
#27
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While I myself am certainly NOT in favor of banning guns, I think that the NRA's constant whining that any regulation of gun ownership will inevitably lead to a ban on guns is a load of crap. In my opinion, this flawed logic simply takes the strength out of their more rational arguments.
There are plenty of restrictions on driving an automobile, but they haven't led to a ban. Hell, there are restrictions and licenses for fishing!
Keep in mind that the phrase "well regulated" appears in the second amendment:
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
There are plenty of restrictions on driving an automobile, but they haven't led to a ban. Hell, there are restrictions and licenses for fishing!
Keep in mind that the phrase "well regulated" appears in the second amendment:
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
10-21-2002, 04:47 AM
#28
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[quote]Originally posted by Mark Hubley:
<strong>While I myself am certainly NOT in favor of banning guns, I think that the NRA's constant whining that any regulation of gun ownership will inevitably lead to a ban on guns is a load of crap. In my opinion, this flawed logic simply takes the strength out of their more rational arguments.
There are plenty of restrictions on driving an automobile, but they haven't led to a ban. Hell, there are restrictions and licenses for fishing!</strong><hr></blockquote>
How long has homicide been illegal? Does that help?
In New York first the decided that they needed registration of gun to keep the world safe, then they said hey boys you are gonna need a permit for those things, but don't worry about us.
Then,well I know we told you not to worry about your gunsbut guess what? Somebody else decided to ban them,soooo..... I guess we're gonna have to take them, but we're from the government we're here to help you.
Gun Control? Whatever......Do criminals follow these laws??? Or is it just me?
<strong>While I myself am certainly NOT in favor of banning guns, I think that the NRA's constant whining that any regulation of gun ownership will inevitably lead to a ban on guns is a load of crap. In my opinion, this flawed logic simply takes the strength out of their more rational arguments.
There are plenty of restrictions on driving an automobile, but they haven't led to a ban. Hell, there are restrictions and licenses for fishing!</strong><hr></blockquote>
How long has homicide been illegal? Does that help?
In New York first the decided that they needed registration of gun to keep the world safe, then they said hey boys you are gonna need a permit for those things, but don't worry about us.
Then,well I know we told you not to worry about your gunsbut guess what? Somebody else decided to ban them,soooo..... I guess we're gonna have to take them, but we're from the government we're here to help you.
Gun Control? Whatever......Do criminals follow these laws??? Or is it just me?
10-21-2002, 03:25 PM
#30
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[quote]Originally posted by Mark Hubley:
<strong>Perhaps I missed something, but has gun ownership really been banned in New York?</strong><hr></blockquote>
More or less for pistol ownership. You have to get a permit from local law enforcement, and in many sections of the state (including the city) it is impossible unless you are ex-police or Howard Stern.
<strong>Perhaps I missed something, but has gun ownership really been banned in New York?</strong><hr></blockquote>
More or less for pistol ownership. You have to get a permit from local law enforcement, and in many sections of the state (including the city) it is impossible unless you are ex-police or Howard Stern.