Killer 944 GT4 Motor???? 2.8L 16v??
11-05-2002, 03:31 PM
#1
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Killer 944 GT4 Motor???? 2.8L 16v??
Ok guys,
Since my 944-spec car needs to run GT4S if I run PCA club races I have be wondering what is the best avenue to get power to able to compete in GT4 if the spec thing dies. I kindof like the idea of bucking trends and getting 944 NA competitive in GT4.
GT4 limitations are a max 2.8L and race prepped 911's put out about 290hp. Clearly a 150 hp 2.5 is not good enough!
A 3.0 S2 or 968 motor puts me in GT3 where I can run a 2.5l Turbo motor so that does not work.
Question??
I have a spare 84 944 motor. Can I do the following..
Enlarge to 2.8L with 3.0 crank (max is 2.808L) & Add 16v head (S or S2, or 968 variocam)?
Of course increase compression and other standard go fast stuff with stand alone electronic managment can also be done.
I just looking at some wild ideas right now and I know it won't be cheap, just wondering if it is possible?
Thanks
Since my 944-spec car needs to run GT4S if I run PCA club races I have be wondering what is the best avenue to get power to able to compete in GT4 if the spec thing dies. I kindof like the idea of bucking trends and getting 944 NA competitive in GT4.
GT4 limitations are a max 2.8L and race prepped 911's put out about 290hp. Clearly a 150 hp 2.5 is not good enough!
A 3.0 S2 or 968 motor puts me in GT3 where I can run a 2.5l Turbo motor so that does not work.
Question??
I have a spare 84 944 motor. Can I do the following..
Enlarge to 2.8L with 3.0 crank (max is 2.808L) & Add 16v head (S or S2, or 968 variocam)?
Of course increase compression and other standard go fast stuff with stand alone electronic managment can also be done.
I just looking at some wild ideas right now and I know it won't be cheap, just wondering if it is possible?
Thanks
11-05-2002, 03:38 PM
#2
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I think you'd be better off going with a 3 liter block, destroking it with a 2.5 liter crank, putting some big lightweight valves into a 16 valve head and a agressive cam. Then, spin the crap out of the motor. If the cylinders are good, stick with the 2.7 liter configuration. If they aren't good, overbore to a 2.8 and install sleeves.
Large bores allow large valves which allows lots of airflow at high rpms. F1 cars have a bore to stroke ratio higher than 2 to 1!
Large bores allow large valves which allows lots of airflow at high rpms. F1 cars have a bore to stroke ratio higher than 2 to 1!
11-05-2002, 03:45 PM
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I have driven a GT4 944 2.8L NA with the 8 valve head on it. I felt that it was a substantial improvement over the standard 2.5L and could certainly be competitive with the right driver and enough weight removed. I would think that you could take a 2.5L 944S engine and build it to 2.8L for even more power, but I have not seen or heard of anybody doing that. However, I have heard of folks destroking a 3L to 2.8L.
Good luck
Good luck
11-05-2002, 04:14 PM
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M758...i too have thought about this route for my '83 944 that currently has a 3.0 968 motor.
I agree that destroking the 16valve to 2.8 is THE way to go..no question about it.
car must be very very light...on the order of 2200 lbs max, i'd go lighter yet if your budget is up to it.
ENGINE: 13:1,sleeved, light valve train,engine management, individual throttlebodies.
I should warn you...there are plenty of GT4 911's putting in excess of 315 hp down and weighing in the neighborhood of 1900 lbs.
TRANSMISSION: 968 6 speed..nothing less,unless you can find a 924 "snail" trans.
In my opinion, a 2200 lb., 310 hp 944,driven right, would run at the front in GT4 anywhere in the country. The only problem is that nobody's done it to my knowledge...yet.
I agree that destroking the 16valve to 2.8 is THE way to go..no question about it.
car must be very very light...on the order of 2200 lbs max, i'd go lighter yet if your budget is up to it.
ENGINE: 13:1,sleeved, light valve train,engine management, individual throttlebodies.
I should warn you...there are plenty of GT4 911's putting in excess of 315 hp down and weighing in the neighborhood of 1900 lbs.
TRANSMISSION: 968 6 speed..nothing less,unless you can find a 924 "snail" trans.
In my opinion, a 2200 lb., 310 hp 944,driven right, would run at the front in GT4 anywhere in the country. The only problem is that nobody's done it to my knowledge...yet.
11-05-2002, 04:58 PM
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I've been PCA Club Racing for 4 years and have done 13 events. I run a 924S which is very competitive in I class. I've always thought the car would be loads faster stripped down to around 2300 Lbs (from 2734) and with an enhanced power plant so I keep my eyes on any 944's running in GT4. There are a few out there that look like they have had serious money spent on them and all I can tell you is.......they almost always are at the back of the pack.
I do not think that, given the current rules, there is any way you can make a 944 based package with a 2.5L based engine competitive in GT4 without spending absolute megabucks. The 2.8L boxer engines can make tons of power and 911/914 platforms can be made incredibly light. Moreover, there is a huge selection of go fast stuff readily available for those cars. The options are not as available for 944's and, in the end, you can't make them light enough, or powerful enough.
That's not to say the car wouldn't be a blast to driver and fun to use in a variety of venues. It just wouldn't be competitive in GT4.
My 2 cents only!
I do not think that, given the current rules, there is any way you can make a 944 based package with a 2.5L based engine competitive in GT4 without spending absolute megabucks. The 2.8L boxer engines can make tons of power and 911/914 platforms can be made incredibly light. Moreover, there is a huge selection of go fast stuff readily available for those cars. The options are not as available for 944's and, in the end, you can't make them light enough, or powerful enough.
That's not to say the car wouldn't be a blast to driver and fun to use in a variety of venues. It just wouldn't be competitive in GT4.
My 2 cents only!
11-05-2002, 05:25 PM
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Sorry Geoff..i just gotta disagree on this one.
If the mega-buck 944's you see competing in GT4 are at the back of the pack...they're just not being driven,simple as that.
I've been competing in PCA Club Racing since it's inception,and POC Cup races before that...i'm old.
My current car uses a completely stock (internal) 968 motor in a 2166 lb. car. It's putting a measly 236 hp to the ground. feeble.
However...while this car usually does'nt have enough to win outright,it often makes it to the podium..or damn close,and this is in GT3!
If this car had another 60hp pushing it along,there would only be a handfull of GT3 cars in the country that could keep it behind them.
I believe that the same would hold true for M758's GT4 car.
P.S. A full blown weight reduction (with $$) on a 944 will get it sub 2K lbs...i've seen it.
If the mega-buck 944's you see competing in GT4 are at the back of the pack...they're just not being driven,simple as that.
I've been competing in PCA Club Racing since it's inception,and POC Cup races before that...i'm old.
My current car uses a completely stock (internal) 968 motor in a 2166 lb. car. It's putting a measly 236 hp to the ground. feeble.
However...while this car usually does'nt have enough to win outright,it often makes it to the podium..or damn close,and this is in GT3!
If this car had another 60hp pushing it along,there would only be a handfull of GT3 cars in the country that could keep it behind them.
I believe that the same would hold true for M758's GT4 car.
P.S. A full blown weight reduction (with $$) on a 944 will get it sub 2K lbs...i've seen it.
11-05-2002, 05:32 PM
#7
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[quote]Originally posted by Steve Lavigne:
<strong>I think you'd be better off going with a 3 liter block, destroking it with a 2.5 liter crank, putting some big lightweight valves into a 16 valve head and a agressive cam. Then, spin the crap out of the motor. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, after I posted I thought about exactly that.
As for chassis right now my spec car is 2450 lbs will full factory glass and steel body panels. With enough money I could easliy bring the weight down. Now 2100lbs is light and might take some thougt and $$, but could probably be done.
Suspension and brakes are not a problem since I can tap in to the 944 Turbo race parts bins. There are plenty of GT3 or GT1 944 Turbos with plenty of top notch suspension and brake components for cars with 400+hp. Since I don't expect any GT4 car to get that power level current 944 Turbo race parts should be fine.
My only issue was the motor. I figured I could (somehow) get the weight down and put good solid chassis set-up together. My issus was Motor. How to get 300 hp from the 4 cyl motor?
Got some good ideas!
Honestly I don't have the budget to do something like this right now (or maybe ever), but it is fun to at least build it on paper!
Maybe one day I will have bucks.. or just build little by little over 5-10 years!
<strong>I think you'd be better off going with a 3 liter block, destroking it with a 2.5 liter crank, putting some big lightweight valves into a 16 valve head and a agressive cam. Then, spin the crap out of the motor. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, after I posted I thought about exactly that.
As for chassis right now my spec car is 2450 lbs will full factory glass and steel body panels. With enough money I could easliy bring the weight down. Now 2100lbs is light and might take some thougt and $$, but could probably be done.
Suspension and brakes are not a problem since I can tap in to the 944 Turbo race parts bins. There are plenty of GT3 or GT1 944 Turbos with plenty of top notch suspension and brake components for cars with 400+hp. Since I don't expect any GT4 car to get that power level current 944 Turbo race parts should be fine.
My only issue was the motor. I figured I could (somehow) get the weight down and put good solid chassis set-up together. My issus was Motor. How to get 300 hp from the 4 cyl motor?
Got some good ideas!
Honestly I don't have the budget to do something like this right now (or maybe ever), but it is fun to at least build it on paper!
Maybe one day I will have bucks.. or just build little by little over 5-10 years!
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11-05-2002, 06:24 PM
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Hey Quick,
Maybe I shouldn't have said it can't be done (i.e making the 944 competitive in GT4) and said instead that it appears to be a lot easier and cheaper to make a 914 or 911 based car competitive in GT4.
As far as the driving skill part goes, you could be right however on the HP tracks like Watkins Glen, Mosport, Road America etc, most 2.8L n/a 944 motors are going to have a hard time with the 6 cylinder crowd.
I can tell you I am intrigued with the possibility of doing all the things to my car that I would like to do if I didn't want to remain legal for PCA I class. Things like getting rid of all excess weight, going bigger on brakes, wheels etc. I am sure that just through weight reduction, the car would be transformed due to the pwr:weight ratio increase.
Maybe I shouldn't have said it can't be done (i.e making the 944 competitive in GT4) and said instead that it appears to be a lot easier and cheaper to make a 914 or 911 based car competitive in GT4.
As far as the driving skill part goes, you could be right however on the HP tracks like Watkins Glen, Mosport, Road America etc, most 2.8L n/a 944 motors are going to have a hard time with the 6 cylinder crowd.
I can tell you I am intrigued with the possibility of doing all the things to my car that I would like to do if I didn't want to remain legal for PCA I class. Things like getting rid of all excess weight, going bigger on brakes, wheels etc. I am sure that just through weight reduction, the car would be transformed due to the pwr:weight ratio increase.
11-05-2002, 06:32 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by QUICK'44:
<strong> TRANSMISSION: 968 6 speed..nothing less,unless you can find a 924 "snail" trans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is a very good idea. How about some custom close ratio gears to work with the narrow power band. Also, I wonder if there is a way to get rid of the synchros and make it a dog gearbox. Screw it, I'm on a roll, go for an xtrac fully sequential transaxle.
<strong> TRANSMISSION: 968 6 speed..nothing less,unless you can find a 924 "snail" trans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is a very good idea. How about some custom close ratio gears to work with the narrow power band. Also, I wonder if there is a way to get rid of the synchros and make it a dog gearbox. Screw it, I'm on a roll, go for an xtrac fully sequential transaxle.
11-06-2002, 11:28 AM
#10
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I know about virtues of the 968 gearbox..
What about the 924 "snail" box.
This came from the 924 Turbo Right??
Why so good???
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
What about the 924 "snail" box.
This came from the 924 Turbo Right??
Why so good???
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
11-06-2002, 12:56 PM
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Over square does seem the way to go. My plan was to use a sleaved 2.5 block (got two spares) rather than destroking a 3.0.
From everyone I've talked to you need around 300hp and no more than 2200lbs to be competitive. 250-260hp seems do-able within a reasonable budget, what most have also said is getting the weight down becomes an issue below 2300lbs. I'm not sure why getting a 911 down below 2100lbs isn't all that hard (at least that's seems to be the implication) while a 44 has top be cut stripped and acid dipped to within an inch of it's life to get to 2200. Anyone know what the "Zebra" car weighed? There wasn't much of that left that wasn't fiberglass.
No matter how you look at it the idea of a competitve 44 in GT4 is very intriguing.
From everyone I've talked to you need around 300hp and no more than 2200lbs to be competitive. 250-260hp seems do-able within a reasonable budget, what most have also said is getting the weight down becomes an issue below 2300lbs. I'm not sure why getting a 911 down below 2100lbs isn't all that hard (at least that's seems to be the implication) while a 44 has top be cut stripped and acid dipped to within an inch of it's life to get to 2200. Anyone know what the "Zebra" car weighed? There wasn't much of that left that wasn't fiberglass.
No matter how you look at it the idea of a competitve 44 in GT4 is very intriguing.
11-06-2002, 01:08 PM
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My thought on weight reduction was basicly to give GT racing my bank account and go carbon fiber crazy
Hood
Front nose panels
front quarter panels
doors
front windscreen
rear hatch
rear bumper
side windows
remove complete undercoating..
Right now I am 2450 lbs all steel and glass so I would need to remove 250lbs to get to 2200.
Of course with more hp I would need to add back some weight for brakes so probably need to get rid of 300 lbs to get to 2200.
Hood
Front nose panels
front quarter panels
doors
front windscreen
rear hatch
rear bumper
side windows
remove complete undercoating..
Right now I am 2450 lbs all steel and glass so I would need to remove 250lbs to get to 2200.
Of course with more hp I would need to add back some weight for brakes so probably need to get rid of 300 lbs to get to 2200.
11-06-2002, 01:22 PM
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I recall that the zebra had a carbon fibre driveshaft. I'm curious if Huntley removed the torque tube and mounted the engine and gearbox solidly to the chassis.
???
???
11-06-2002, 01:43 PM
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i would have to dissagree on the carbon fiber.
fiberglass is a tad heavier. (like 1/5 lb) and when you are on a budget, it is easier on the wallet. if you want to go for the CF look then by all means go for it. but hank's shop is like 2 blocks from my office. so im really familar with his product line. the fiber glass components are suficently light if you have 1. a white car, or 2 will paint it.
nice story thoe. A few of my friends all have 944's and well i did an expieriment. I purchased / installed all the bolt on fiberglass components that I could fit on my 88. the car sat 1.5" higher then the stock 944's. I also gutten the interior to the point that I had one seat and a dash. .
now before the mods Eric's 944 would eat me up on all aceleration races. but after. it was another story. I wish I would have weighted the car before it was wrecked. but then again, Im gald. bc. I could then buy and start a 951 project.
fiberglass is a tad heavier. (like 1/5 lb) and when you are on a budget, it is easier on the wallet. if you want to go for the CF look then by all means go for it. but hank's shop is like 2 blocks from my office. so im really familar with his product line. the fiber glass components are suficently light if you have 1. a white car, or 2 will paint it.
nice story thoe. A few of my friends all have 944's and well i did an expieriment. I purchased / installed all the bolt on fiberglass components that I could fit on my 88. the car sat 1.5" higher then the stock 944's. I also gutten the interior to the point that I had one seat and a dash. .
now before the mods Eric's 944 would eat me up on all aceleration races. but after. it was another story. I wish I would have weighted the car before it was wrecked. but then again, Im gald. bc. I could then buy and start a 951 project.