The most powerful 951
10-16-2002, 10:22 AM
#31
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I really mean reliable Hp, hp that can be used on the street. It would be great to have a 600 Rwhp 951 on the street, and lightened slightly, i was doing calculations, that thing could beat 850 RWHP supras on the road! You would be the talk of the town. But how's it possible? There hasen't been any 600 RWHP 951's. maybe I haven't heard of them, but I doubt there were any. A little off topic, but, there was recently a dyno on some website ( i'll try to find it) on a supercharged Viper. he put 1030 hp to the wheels!! that's crazy power. The owner was saying how in fifth gear, if he floored it, it would spin out! WOW! I did a calculation, that if the 951 was lightened to 2200 pounds, it could theoretically only lose by 40 hp against that viper ( i'm just dreaming). plus with the handling potential of this car, it can be one of the fastest cars for the road or track. I think the 951 is one of the greatest porsches ever built. Any way, back to the original topic. Is it possible to have a 600 RWHP 951? 
10-17-2002, 01:41 PM
#32
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[quote]Originally posted by Silverbullet951:
<strong>I really mean reliable Hp, hp that can be used on the street. It would be great to have a 600 Rwhp 951 on the street, and lightened slightly, i was doing calculations, that thing could beat 850 RWHP supras on the road! You would be the talk of the town. But how's it possible? There hasen't been any 600 RWHP 951's. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well the 951 does have some disadvantages compared to a Supra or a Viper when it comes to making that kind of power. Primarily, cylinder count and displacement.
Number of cylinders doesn't matter that much until you start getting into these high horsepower ranges. Say you need a 100cc injector to get the power level you are aiming for (this is hypothetical) on your 951. So you are using 400cc's. On a supra, you could use
66cc injectors, and on the Viper you could use 40cc injectors! With those small injectors it will be much easier to make the car driveable. Also think about your valve sizes, and intake runners. With only 4 intake runners, they will need to be pretty damn big to flow enough air for a given horsepower X. With 6 or even 10 runners, they can be much smaller to reach the same power potential, and thus provide better all around performance (driveability again). So basically with more cylinders you can make the same power in a more streetable configuration, or make more power in a similarly streetable configuration.
And you have to consider displacement and stock output as well. 2.5L/220hp vs. 3L/320hp vs. 8L/450hp. The 951 community is just starting to get some street cars into the 400rwhp+ range - over double the stock horsepower. The top Supras and Vipers out there are 1000hp+ so they are doing a bit better, but then they have a lot more to work with. The supra only has a slight displacement advantage, but then it also has a DOHC head, and they usually require a huge turbo and NOS to reach those power levels.
That said I'd bet 600rwhp is possible for a street 951. It might require a two injector per cylinder setup using a standalone system to keep it driveable and still have enough fuel, and a huge laggy turbo. A 3 or 3.2L setup with a DOHC head would probably help too. I remeber an article in excellence a log while ago about a 16v 3.0 liter turbo engine that someone was building. That might be the ticket for those power levels.
<strong>I really mean reliable Hp, hp that can be used on the street. It would be great to have a 600 Rwhp 951 on the street, and lightened slightly, i was doing calculations, that thing could beat 850 RWHP supras on the road! You would be the talk of the town. But how's it possible? There hasen't been any 600 RWHP 951's. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well the 951 does have some disadvantages compared to a Supra or a Viper when it comes to making that kind of power. Primarily, cylinder count and displacement.
Number of cylinders doesn't matter that much until you start getting into these high horsepower ranges. Say you need a 100cc injector to get the power level you are aiming for (this is hypothetical) on your 951. So you are using 400cc's. On a supra, you could use
66cc injectors, and on the Viper you could use 40cc injectors! With those small injectors it will be much easier to make the car driveable. Also think about your valve sizes, and intake runners. With only 4 intake runners, they will need to be pretty damn big to flow enough air for a given horsepower X. With 6 or even 10 runners, they can be much smaller to reach the same power potential, and thus provide better all around performance (driveability again). So basically with more cylinders you can make the same power in a more streetable configuration, or make more power in a similarly streetable configuration.
And you have to consider displacement and stock output as well. 2.5L/220hp vs. 3L/320hp vs. 8L/450hp. The 951 community is just starting to get some street cars into the 400rwhp+ range - over double the stock horsepower. The top Supras and Vipers out there are 1000hp+ so they are doing a bit better, but then they have a lot more to work with. The supra only has a slight displacement advantage, but then it also has a DOHC head, and they usually require a huge turbo and NOS to reach those power levels.
That said I'd bet 600rwhp is possible for a street 951. It might require a two injector per cylinder setup using a standalone system to keep it driveable and still have enough fuel, and a huge laggy turbo. A 3 or 3.2L setup with a DOHC head would probably help too. I remeber an article in excellence a log while ago about a 16v 3.0 liter turbo engine that someone was building. That might be the ticket for those power levels.
10-17-2002, 02:44 PM
#33
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REALITY REVISITED.....
For practical purposes....400 hp at the crank is the most RELIABLE power i've yet seen on a 951 that see's regular (severe) track duty.
A street 951 "might" be able to get by with another 20hp or so.
I've witnessed the survivability of the 400 hp package over several years. That's about as imperical as ANYBODY'S gonna get on this thread.
For practical purposes....400 hp at the crank is the most RELIABLE power i've yet seen on a 951 that see's regular (severe) track duty.
A street 951 "might" be able to get by with another 20hp or so.
I've witnessed the survivability of the 400 hp package over several years. That's about as imperical as ANYBODY'S gonna get on this thread.
10-17-2002, 05:12 PM
#34
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Hey Mitch,
Lets build your Race Car to put down some numbers...We can make it realiable.
How about a serious 450 all day long track engine? he he he...
IT CAN BE DONE
Lets build your Race Car to put down some numbers...We can make it realiable.
How about a serious 450 all day long track engine? he he he...
IT CAN BE DONE
10-17-2002, 06:35 PM
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Hmmmm...i dunno John,my car's damn fast as it is..and 100% reliable!
Besides, i think we've got our hands full already, getting the R5 car to the front of the pack. that's gonna take some SERIOUS attention to detail...not to mention time!
Besides, i think we've got our hands full already, getting the R5 car to the front of the pack. that's gonna take some SERIOUS attention to detail...not to mention time!
10-17-2002, 07:02 PM
#36
Race Director
Don't forget in the 80's BMW got over 1000 hp from is 1.5L 4cyl car based motor in F1. I think I remember they maxed out their engine dyno and could not test further. 
True it was an F1 motor with custom fuel and everthing, but is just goes to show how with the proper engieering and plenty of money to support it turbo motors can make HUGE horsepower!
True it was an F1 motor with custom fuel and everthing, but is just goes to show how with the proper engieering and plenty of money to support it turbo motors can make HUGE horsepower!
10-17-2002, 07:17 PM
#37
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Thanks for the response Keith...
BUT-> Supra's, Vipers, 996TT's, E46M3's, etc are heavy cars. I have a mental thing about the 3000lb mark- probably b/c the first cars I was into were WAY under- 1st Gen Integra, 16v Scirocco & GTi, VR6 Corrado (BARELY <3K)...
Modern bad boys really push the envelope- 996TT: >3600, Boxster S: >3200, E40M3: >3600, etc. Much of this due to extra equipment, like air bags everywhere- I hear they're coming out w/******** AB's in '04- unfortunately, we'll have to wait until '06 to get separate right and left ones
How much range IS there b/t engines? EX: 968 engine ~25lbs lighter than 951: ~405/~380lbs. I assume the RX-7TT is about the lightest moddable bad boy out there- not sure how it compares. The VR6 was supposed to be a light, small, engine made to fit in a 4cyl space, etc. It's very strong- can safely & reliably double it's power- now they've got the 24v VR6, but it only puts out ~10HP more than the Euro '92VR6 which was over 190HP (the dif being only 100cc's) and they have their new 8's & 12's- I'm wondering if they'll be good cadidates for mods(?)...
Someone said Norwood used a 911 engine in a DOOM 944- how hard would that be? What about trying to fit a Supra TT engine, VW8 (or 12), or even a 300ZXTT or RX-7TT under our hoods? Renegade's been getting American V8's in there- they really don't appear to fill up the engine bay anymore than our 2.5L 4's. How big is our block really-could Porsche have made a 6cyl out of it? Sounds like a small 6 or 8 would be better than a large 4 in a way- it doesn't really have to be heavier does it? If the block size, etc were the same, would the extra cyl's by themselves make it any heavier? I understand more cyl's make the car run smoother- not sure if that's always true, etc, but I the 944's had balance shafts- they add weight, and if anything, they seem to detract from performance. It seems like more cylinders might offset this extra weight, while engine would be just as smooth, and, have more power- is this true? What then would be the advantage of the 4's? Is it JUST fuel economy?
Any input here? I'd love to know morethanks,
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Thanks,
Robby
BUT-> Supra's, Vipers, 996TT's, E46M3's, etc are heavy cars. I have a mental thing about the 3000lb mark- probably b/c the first cars I was into were WAY under- 1st Gen Integra, 16v Scirocco & GTi, VR6 Corrado (BARELY <3K)...
Modern bad boys really push the envelope- 996TT: >3600, Boxster S: >3200, E40M3: >3600, etc. Much of this due to extra equipment, like air bags everywhere- I hear they're coming out w/******** AB's in '04- unfortunately, we'll have to wait until '06 to get separate right and left ones
How much range IS there b/t engines? EX: 968 engine ~25lbs lighter than 951: ~405/~380lbs. I assume the RX-7TT is about the lightest moddable bad boy out there- not sure how it compares. The VR6 was supposed to be a light, small, engine made to fit in a 4cyl space, etc. It's very strong- can safely & reliably double it's power- now they've got the 24v VR6, but it only puts out ~10HP more than the Euro '92VR6 which was over 190HP (the dif being only 100cc's) and they have their new 8's & 12's- I'm wondering if they'll be good cadidates for mods(?)...
Someone said Norwood used a 911 engine in a DOOM 944- how hard would that be? What about trying to fit a Supra TT engine, VW8 (or 12), or even a 300ZXTT or RX-7TT under our hoods? Renegade's been getting American V8's in there- they really don't appear to fill up the engine bay anymore than our 2.5L 4's. How big is our block really-could Porsche have made a 6cyl out of it? Sounds like a small 6 or 8 would be better than a large 4 in a way- it doesn't really have to be heavier does it? If the block size, etc were the same, would the extra cyl's by themselves make it any heavier? I understand more cyl's make the car run smoother- not sure if that's always true, etc, but I the 944's had balance shafts- they add weight, and if anything, they seem to detract from performance. It seems like more cylinders might offset this extra weight, while engine would be just as smooth, and, have more power- is this true? What then would be the advantage of the 4's? Is it JUST fuel economy?
Any input here? I'd love to know morethanks,
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Thanks,
Robby
