Turbo VS. S2
05-07-2003, 06:32 PM
#18
Race Director
Simply put the 944 S2 does not have the power potential of the 951. If you are happy with the stock 208 flywheel hp then an S2 is fine. It most cases an S2 is a match for a stock turbo. May be not down to the 0.1 sec but in general. If you want 270 whp then you need a turbo plain and simple.
Ohh, the 8v head revs just fine all the way to redline.
Ohh, the 8v head revs just fine all the way to redline.
05-07-2003, 06:42 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Until your throttle body becomes the bottleneck in your intake system, the bigger throttle body is just $$ out the door for nothing. Eliminate the spots where the air has problems getting into and out of the engine and get them to the point where the engine breathes freely. Usually places like the intake, exhaust are those areas.
I have driven many Porsches including a 930, the 968 and others and chose my 951 partly because it was the best Porsche available and was at a price I could live with and was in great shape. If you live in an area where several S2 and turbos are for sale all the time, great....you will have an easy find. For me, there aren't that many that show up within easy reach for me and with my work schedule, I can't go driving off to Atlanta and such in search of a car.
However, after owning a Supra NA 1986.5 model, as much as I loved that car, I was always drooling over what the turbo guys were doing for relatively small amounts of money to make their cars a great deal faster. Hearing about the boost and the power was really annoying to me as there was really only about 30 or 40 more hp I could get in that car without serious $$. So, although I would have been open to an S2 had one been available in my price range and no turbo been out there, I would have bought it, I'm happier that the turbo dropped into my lap. A great PPI confirmed it (it does need lots of little tiny bits of TLC and paint for all of the chips in the paint) and I got the car. I love the boost. I hate pulling out on hills when there is little torque though. Is it more work to keep up? Hard to say. PO's did a lot of work on this car to keep it up to pretty high standards. I wanted to be able to have a car that I could extract some fairly serious power with that handled great and my car is it. Honestly, keep the boost to around 15psi and go with a kit like the Guru MAP kit (ordering mine now in about 2 weeks) and you can make around 300hp at the flywheel with it and as long as you aren't beating on the car, I don't think it would be greatly less reliable than it would stock.
I agree with everybody else though...look at your budget for maintenance, look at how good you are with working on cars, decide what you want to do with it (if you're just cruising downtown and not burning the canyons an S2 Cab would be sweet!) and look for the best available car you would be interested in that you can find for a price you can afford and buy it. Turbo or S2 unless you really want to lock it down to one or the other.
Either way, good luck with the hunt! Took me a year to finally find and get my car.
Cheers!
I have driven many Porsches including a 930, the 968 and others and chose my 951 partly because it was the best Porsche available and was at a price I could live with and was in great shape. If you live in an area where several S2 and turbos are for sale all the time, great....you will have an easy find. For me, there aren't that many that show up within easy reach for me and with my work schedule, I can't go driving off to Atlanta and such in search of a car.
However, after owning a Supra NA 1986.5 model, as much as I loved that car, I was always drooling over what the turbo guys were doing for relatively small amounts of money to make their cars a great deal faster. Hearing about the boost and the power was really annoying to me as there was really only about 30 or 40 more hp I could get in that car without serious $$. So, although I would have been open to an S2 had one been available in my price range and no turbo been out there, I would have bought it, I'm happier that the turbo dropped into my lap. A great PPI confirmed it (it does need lots of little tiny bits of TLC and paint for all of the chips in the paint) and I got the car. I love the boost. I hate pulling out on hills when there is little torque though. Is it more work to keep up? Hard to say. PO's did a lot of work on this car to keep it up to pretty high standards. I wanted to be able to have a car that I could extract some fairly serious power with that handled great and my car is it. Honestly, keep the boost to around 15psi and go with a kit like the Guru MAP kit (ordering mine now in about 2 weeks) and you can make around 300hp at the flywheel with it and as long as you aren't beating on the car, I don't think it would be greatly less reliable than it would stock.
I agree with everybody else though...look at your budget for maintenance, look at how good you are with working on cars, decide what you want to do with it (if you're just cruising downtown and not burning the canyons an S2 Cab would be sweet!) and look for the best available car you would be interested in that you can find for a price you can afford and buy it. Turbo or S2 unless you really want to lock it down to one or the other.
Either way, good luck with the hunt! Took me a year to finally find and get my car.
Cheers!
05-07-2003, 07:07 PM
#20
Drifting
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>The clutch on the turbo takes quite a bit longer from what I hear. The PO and his brother changed the clutch on my S2 in 5 hours, 20 mins. They said to do one on a turbo is at least 8 hours.
A K&N Cone in the front nose of the S2 makes for a killer sound..I love mine! And for a chip there's a guy on the e-mail lists I think. Steve R is his name. I probably still have his e-mail address if you can't find it when you're ready to buy one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">5hour!!! Man that guy is pro!! Average time for an S2 is about 16hours, some turbos are about 20-24 hours. Thats by the shop time keep in mind. Doesn't that cone lose HP for the S2? If not I am getting one! I really want that sound Where can you get one, part #?
<strong>The clutch on the turbo takes quite a bit longer from what I hear. The PO and his brother changed the clutch on my S2 in 5 hours, 20 mins. They said to do one on a turbo is at least 8 hours.
A K&N Cone in the front nose of the S2 makes for a killer sound..I love mine! And for a chip there's a guy on the e-mail lists I think. Steve R is his name. I probably still have his e-mail address if you can't find it when you're ready to buy one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">5hour!!! Man that guy is pro!! Average time for an S2 is about 16hours, some turbos are about 20-24 hours. Thats by the shop time keep in mind. Doesn't that cone lose HP for the S2? If not I am getting one! I really want that sound
Where can you get one, part #?
05-07-2003, 07:09 PM
#21
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Well the guy's brother is a Porsche mechanic at a local garage and has done it many times...but yeah he said the turbo takes a while longer because of all the extra exaust components and other turbo plumbing.
05-07-2003, 07:17 PM
#22
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I wish that guy was closer to home. Wiessach charges about $2600 for a basic clutch installation, I believe that includes the clutch. To rich for my blood, but they are PRO. Always happy when I leave wiessach
05-07-2003, 08:59 PM
#23
RL Community Team
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by SidViscous:
<strong>Can sopmeone explain this.
US, 2900 lbs, 2.5L
147 BHP, 144 ft.lbs
0-60 8.9
Top end 123
Signifigantly lower than all other NA's</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The earlier US specification model 944s had lower compression ratios and other stuff in an attempt to meet Federal emissions laws at the time. Later models like the S and S2 had the same compression, HP and performance as non-US spec cars.
The test results you're quoting are from the R&T road test of February 1986. As you can see, the numbers for that car were lower than what you'd normally see. Here's why:
* Individual cars of the same model differ. This is due to manufacturing variation and is simply a fact of life. You'll get good ones and bad ones.
* Test conditions (e.g. surface traction, ambient temperature, clutch condition, the brutality of the test-driver, etc.) have a tremendous impact.
<strong>Isn't it also true that 0-60 #'s are thrown off because of the shorter gears, they give more acceleration but require a shift before 60, and the 951 can hit 60 in 2nd, reducing a shift.</strong>[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Thats why on the list I compiled, I added 60-100 mph times which is (I believe) a good real-world measure of a car. Another measure is the terminal velocity (not the time) at the 1/4 mile.
Karl.
<strong>Can sopmeone explain this.
US, 2900 lbs, 2.5L
147 BHP, 144 ft.lbs
0-60 8.9
Top end 123
Signifigantly lower than all other NA's</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The earlier US specification model 944s had lower compression ratios and other stuff in an attempt to meet Federal emissions laws at the time. Later models like the S and S2 had the same compression, HP and performance as non-US spec cars.
The test results you're quoting are from the R&T road test of February 1986. As you can see, the numbers for that car were lower than what you'd normally see. Here's why:
* Individual cars of the same model differ. This is due to manufacturing variation and is simply a fact of life. You'll get good ones and bad ones.
* Test conditions (e.g. surface traction, ambient temperature, clutch condition, the brutality of the test-driver, etc.) have a tremendous impact.
<strong>Isn't it also true that 0-60 #'s are thrown off because of the shorter gears, they give more acceleration but require a shift before 60, and the 951 can hit 60 in 2nd, reducing a shift.</strong>[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Thats why on the list I compiled, I added 60-100 mph times which is (I believe) a good real-world measure of a car. Another measure is the terminal velocity (not the time) at the 1/4 mile.
Karl.
05-07-2003, 10:54 PM
#24
Drifting
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I am wondering some basic info on you guys. How old are you? Job? In school? Income? Are you guys friends outside of here?
age: 20 (21 in july)
job: Home City ice (<$20,000 yr)
school: still in college, 3 yr
friends: don't know any of you but would like to
age: 20 (21 in july)
job: Home City ice (<$20,000 yr)
school: still in college, 3 yr
friends: don't know any of you but would like to
05-07-2003, 11:03 PM
#25
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Ok, since I have both a 951 and an S2, I feel very qualified to get into this conversation. In short the turbo blows the S2 away in speed, no questions. Having said that, the S2 is what I use for my daily driver. I used the turbo for my daily driver for two years (year round) and it was great. There is nothing like getting into the boost on the turbo. It's just plain fast, yet it feels slower than the S2.
At the top of my favorite entrance ramp to the highway I see about 30-40 MPH more in the turbo than in the S2, usually well above 110MPH. This is not to say that the S2 is slow, but the turbo is that fast once on boost.
I use the S2 for autocross duty since it's easier to drive and the low end torque is much better than the turbo's on an autocross course (the turbo rarely has a chance to spool up).
The S2's gearing is higher than the turbo. The top of 3rd gear is about 90 in the S2, while it's 100 in the turbo. The S2 is a great car, I love it, but I'm not getting rid of the turbo for it.
As for costs, they are about even. Put some money into the turbo when you get it to bring it up to snuff and it'll be at least as reliable as the S2. Take a look at my website for maintenance info for both cars and make your own determination.
Good luck!
Dal.
At the top of my favorite entrance ramp to the highway I see about 30-40 MPH more in the turbo than in the S2, usually well above 110MPH. This is not to say that the S2 is slow, but the turbo is that fast once on boost.
I use the S2 for autocross duty since it's easier to drive and the low end torque is much better than the turbo's on an autocross course (the turbo rarely has a chance to spool up).
The S2's gearing is higher than the turbo. The top of 3rd gear is about 90 in the S2, while it's 100 in the turbo. The S2 is a great car, I love it, but I'm not getting rid of the turbo for it.
As for costs, they are about even. Put some money into the turbo when you get it to bring it up to snuff and it'll be at least as reliable as the S2. Take a look at my website for maintenance info for both cars and make your own determination.
Good luck!
Dal.
05-08-2003, 11:30 AM
#26
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 944S2NUT:
<strong>I wish that guy was closer to home. Wiessach charges about $2600 for a basic clutch installation, I believe that includes the clutch. To rich for my blood, but they are PRO. Always happy when I leave wiessach </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Geez, I only paid $1400 for my clutch job last month! (parts and labor included) Powertech in Rockaway, NJ. But they are nice to me due to the amount of work I give them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
$2600 is a bit high for an S2 clutch job.
-Z.
<strong>I wish that guy was closer to home. Wiessach charges about $2600 for a basic clutch installation, I believe that includes the clutch. To rich for my blood, but they are PRO. Always happy when I leave wiessach
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Geez, I only paid $1400 for my clutch job last month! (parts and labor included) Powertech in Rockaway, NJ. But they are nice to me due to the amount of work I give them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> $2600 is a bit high for an S2 clutch job.
-Z.
05-08-2003, 12:19 PM
#27
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by SidViscous:
<strong>Isn't it also true that 0-60 #'s are thrown off because of the shorter gears, they give more acceleration but require a shift before 60, and the 951 can hit 60 in 2nd, reducing a shift.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yep, so true..
<strong>Isn't it also true that 0-60 #'s are thrown off because of the shorter gears, they give more acceleration but require a shift before 60, and the 951 can hit 60 in 2nd, reducing a shift.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yep, so true..
05-08-2003, 12:47 PM
#29
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 944S2NUT:
I wish that guy was closer to home. Wiessach charges about $2600 for a basic clutch installation, I believe that includes the clutch. To rich for my blood, but they are PRO. Always happy when I leave wiessach
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geez, I only paid $1400 for my clutch job last month! (parts and labor included) Powertech in Rockaway, NJ. But they are nice to me due to the amount of work I give them!
$2600 is a bit high for an S2 clutch job.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">we are talking candian dollars here right? The Weissach shop is in Vancouver, the last itme i remembered (?)....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 944S2NUT:
I wish that guy was closer to home. Wiessach charges about $2600 for a basic clutch installation, I believe that includes the clutch. To rich for my blood, but they are PRO. Always happy when I leave wiessach
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geez, I only paid $1400 for my clutch job last month! (parts and labor included) Powertech in Rockaway, NJ. But they are nice to me due to the amount of work I give them!
$2600 is a bit high for an S2 clutch job.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">we are talking candian dollars here right? The Weissach shop is in Vancouver, the last itme i remembered (?)....
05-08-2003, 12:53 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
I also own both a 944S2 and a 951S, although in the cabrio body style. I enjoy each for different reasons, but much as I like the S2, the 951 is my favorite. Having said that, keep in mind that I have been driving 944s for 9 years now and spent many hours behind the wheel of my 83 before graduating to the 3-liter S2.
To answer Mike's question, it's not true that the 951 cannot be a smooth car to drive. Off boost, it's every bit as smooth as the S2. I for one appreciate its 2.5 liter engine for laid back driving around town, etc. The S2 is so torquey, it roars into gear no matter how low the RPMs. With the 951 you just need the "discipline" to stay off the boost and it's very smooth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
Regarding maintenance, I think the number 1 reason why people say turbos cost more, is because so few of them are stock. Everyone modifies them (boost enhancers, MAFs, yadda, yadda, yadda). When you tamper with the factory setup, things can happen and they usually cost money to fix (e.g. blown headgaskets, etc.)
Both my cars are bone stock, and they've been pretty similar in maintenance under my ownership, although the S2 has twice the mileage of the turbo.
I think the S2 is very rewarding to drive, but the 951 presents a bit more of a challenge, since you can always get a bigger response from the engine if you push it into boost. This surge of acceleration can be a handful to manage, depending on the driving conditions.
If this is going to be your first 944, I would recommend you buy an S2 starting out and become familiar with it. You will love it. It's a great car. Perhaps later you will find a nice 951 and get into the turbo cars.
Welcome to 944s!
To answer Mike's question, it's not true that the 951 cannot be a smooth car to drive. Off boost, it's every bit as smooth as the S2. I for one appreciate its 2.5 liter engine for laid back driving around town, etc. The S2 is so torquey, it roars into gear no matter how low the RPMs. With the 951 you just need the "discipline" to stay off the boost and it's very smooth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
Regarding maintenance, I think the number 1 reason why people say turbos cost more, is because so few of them are stock. Everyone modifies them (boost enhancers, MAFs, yadda, yadda, yadda). When you tamper with the factory setup, things can happen and they usually cost money to fix (e.g. blown headgaskets, etc.)
Both my cars are bone stock, and they've been pretty similar in maintenance under my ownership, although the S2 has twice the mileage of the turbo.
I think the S2 is very rewarding to drive, but the 951 presents a bit more of a challenge, since you can always get a bigger response from the engine if you push it into boost. This surge of acceleration can be a handful to manage, depending on the driving conditions.
If this is going to be your first 944, I would recommend you buy an S2 starting out and become familiar with it. You will love it. It's a great car. Perhaps later you will find a nice 951 and get into the turbo cars.
Welcome to 944s!