ERAU-944

no offense porscheguy, but he did say you DID NOT HAVE TO READ the rest, that you could just help him with his car thing. while i may not personally like what he is doing, i'm not going to go off on him, he's obviously dealing with some extenuating circumstances.

i will, however, agree that the game-playing needs to stop. just somewhat detatch yourself from the girl#1 and girl#2 in any phyiscal sense. if they need friends be a good friend to them, but you cant screw your friends, literally or figuratively. i vote for #3, date her and see if she is really cool. if it works out, awesome. but dont get mixed up with the other two until they get things straight and you do as well.

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> *steps down*
so until next time...
take care of yourselves, and each other
jerry springer...... er..... mike

Jeff928S4

BigPorscheGuy39 - I have been specifically waiting for a reply from you. I have read your posts in Deepice's thread about his problem with his wife (and other threds) and I find your thinking very precise, mature and to the point.

I must clearify some things for you. I know this whole situation sounds somewhat immature and jaded - but if you knew the people in the situation better (which is hard from one post of mine), you would see that all of this is so not "sex related".

When I said "back and forth" I truly meant that I was dating one, then the other. I wasn't "nailing" both of them at that point. I was dating #2 and we broke up. I then met #1 and the relationship was rocky at best, so when it ended - I "ran" back to #2. When I say "best friend" I do actually mean best friends. This girl didn't start dancing until I had known her for 5-6 years and I have never dumped a girlfriend and then had sex with her. She and I have many, many very deep conversations and have many things and ideas in common. We always talk when one of us is in turmoil and respect each other's opinions. I totally respect her thinking (sometimes she does make bad decisions, but don't we all?). The fact that she was a dancer really does make it sound bad. When I tell people she is my "best friend" - the reaction is always similar to what you had. I agree with you that other women may find it hard to commit to me with her as my friend, but it is a true friendship and any women I'm with should understand this, no?

While ex #1 was in the hospital I did everything for her. I visited every chance I had. I spent many a night running around getting her things she requested. She was very manic, so her demands were somewhat strange and specific - but I made damn sure she had that specific flavour gum, certain kind of bottled water, certain make-up (yes, I spent over two hours at the drug store buying her make-up). I did everything I could and wasn't dating anyone else the entire time she was in there. She started this new relationship because I told her we would need time when she got out. I was very afraid she had a breakdown because of me and I didn't want her to spend too much time with me until she felt totally comfortable. I think she took this as a "I'm dumping you because you're in a mental hospital" - which was so not the case. I was afraid and we were apart for 3 months...I guess I needed some time to re-adjust once she got out. Being in there really changed a lot about her and I didn't want to hurt her or set her back at all. I was only upset about her having sex in the woods with "the new guy" because I met this guy and knew what he was all about and his only goal was sex....I really care for her and had hoped she would meet a nice fellow....this guy wasn't and it hurt me that she was used. Whatever she does is her business, but I was just upset because she didn't seem to care enough about herself to wait longer before she had sex.....I dunno, it just bothers people sometimes when you know that someone you have been with exclusively for 5 years is now being intimate with someone else.

You are 100% correct about ex #2 "moving back into my place" - very bad decision. She came back to Nova Scotia to goto school and we did make a deal that she could stay at my house until she had enough for her own apartment. When we made the deal, #1 was seeing the guy in the hospital, so I thought it a safe decision. The plan was for her to stay for a month or so, so she could get a paycheque from the new job she had up here. I had no clue she was thinking about "being with me". I knew she was having problems with her current boyfriend, but I didn't think she was interested in anything but a friendship with me. I know I represent the "rebound guy" or perhaps she feels safe around me, but I also know that she had to visit this other guy to work things out or end them once and for all. The visits to his place were not booty calls or anything like that (that I know of - but then again, it's none of my business). She really does know that her relationship with him is unhealthy and wants to end it the right way - she is just stuck because they were together for so long.

This whole situation IS based on feelings. I really do love #1. I love her because I care about what happens to her. She hasn't had a good life. Her parents are not poster children for parenting skills. The problem with the love in this relationship is that I don't think she loves herself enough to give back the amount of love I give her. She doesn't trust my love. She only thinks of "love" as a word. I know she loves me as much as she is capable, but I don't know if it's enough. It's not "romance" love as it is more "dependant love" and I don't really want that. I think she is capable of opening up more, but only time will tell. If she could find Mr. Right and he would treat her good, that would make me very happy. I just want to see her happy.

I love #2 because she is my best friend. We have been thru a lot together over the years. We have laughed and cried and even once threw up in the same toilet at the same time (after a night of partying) together. We have a deal that whenever we are apart, we look to the sky and find the North star and look at it and think of each other. When she lived here, I would coach her for job interviews and take her to them. She didn't trust her boyfriend to do many things with her and I was always the "nice guy who was her friend". It hasn't been until recently that she has expressed any feeling towards me that would indicate anything other than that. When we dated 5 years ago, it was just a "we're such good friends, why not try a relationship?" type thing and it worked out horribly.

There are many feelings involved and sex isn't a player in this situation. This is the real deal - but after reading my initial post, I can see how lack of emotion shone thru. You have to remember the confusion and potential for hurt that surrounds this situation.....my feeling towards the whole thing are somewhat negative right now and I think that was translated into the first post.

Also, when I say I'm "weak" because I can't get away from them - it's because they are very attractive and I have put a lot of time into gaining their trust. I know if I wait it out, I will end up with one or the other and they are so attactive (inside and out) that I don't want to give up on them because I really don't want all the effort I put into them to go to waste. I'm very lucky to even have them in my life. They are wayyy out of my league, looks-wise, so I'm afraid I won't "do as good" if I give up on them both. It's my own insecurities showing.

944S Boyeee

BigPorscheGuy39

Fair enough...

I'd only add that asking yourself "Why do you place yourself in these unfortunate spots?" might be a good starting question.

Aside from this meagre contribution, the problem is way beyond my scope, I'm afraid. Sorry.

BTW, it's my opinion that if you loved either one you wouldn't really be faced with this dilemma, and the 'choice' wouldn't arise. So, as you can see, I'm really not the right person to speak on this matter.

Cass944

its ok if a chick shifts for you.... just not the car if you know what i mean.

trebor_quitman

You have two more options...

#4 Play them all against each other to get as much sexual gratification out of it as possible before one or all of them find out and plot your demise.

#5 Pick the one that makes you happy regardless the pressence of sexual contact, and then mail me the phone numbers of the other two...

(EDIT)The above was meant as humor, I went back and finished reading, and decided it wasn't as funny, but just incase someone does think it was, I left it.

Sounds like you should be honest with the two you've been with, and just maintain a friendship with the third for the time being. Now that doesn't mean telling them that you are seeking the affection of the others, but letting them know about your doubts. This will either set you on a path to make it stronger or blow the bridge thats already doomed. I don't know the people or the situations, but being honest and open always worked for me. The catch is that I'm single right now so maybee it's not the best advice.

Now that all the important things have been discussed we can get to the little items, like the car and the smell. I have learned the distinct differences between various smells in my years of driving lemons, the worst was when I had a truck overheat 100 miles from anywhere so I had to drive it regardless of the steaming antifreaze in the cabin. Smells sweet at first then it makes you wana reach down your own throat and invert your organs onto the pavement. The clutch would smell organic, Never thought to compare it to **** though. I always thought it smelled like some strange specimin of your said freinds weed habits. At least thats what I always compared it to but I don't like the smell of either and try to avoid either (Burning clutches or roaches). If I had a choice I would prefer to smoke a clutch over the other. As for fearing for the life of your Rubber center, don't the S's have a spring? Anyone know?

BigPorscheGuy39

#4 Play them all against each other to get as much sexual gratification out of it as possible before one or all of them find out and plot your demise.

I pick #4! That's pretty funny Bob!

Peckster

Wild night out....didn't amaf say that too? Guess 944S Boyee is our amaf of the bedroom.

Sorry, no offence, eh?

Jeff928S4

Come on BigPorscheGuy39, you know you can help out here....

Anyone who can really figure me out has to be able to help. I mean that you did figure out the game I was playing by having them in the car together. I will admit it was a power trip. How can I deny myself that chance? But the initial goal in deciding to go out with both of them at the same time was to just plain have fun. That is why I asked ex #1 to bring her friend along....I figured that would cut the tension between the two ex's, and it did.

After all, they are girls and when girls start having fun with other girls, guys seem to leave their minds. Girls feed off one another and I wanted both of them out with me so I could have fun, but not have to worry about dancing or following them while they "take a walk around". The third girl added to the "girly party" and the three of them had a wonderful night. They are my friends first and foremost and I enjoy seeing them smile.

Now that I think about it - perhaps I set myself up for the end of the night comments that made me so mad. I did make it a "girls night out" kinda thing and I should have suspected there would be "girl talk". I guess I should not have freaked out so much, eh?

It's just so fun (sometimes) to be a part of all of this. It's very open and lies are not being dished out. Ex #1 knows how ex #2 feels and visa versa. They both know how I feel about each other one also. It's not a game of "who will he choose" or "who is better". They know I'm very torn. We have all agreed that "whatever happens is supposed to happen".

The more I think about it - I think my only choice is to just remain friends with both of them and seek "love" elsewhere. It's just that there are "more than friend" emotions involved and it would be hard to turn my back on that.

I really, really, really am confused. I'm not looking for anything else here other than advice and experiences from others that may help me organize my neurons.

I must ask though BigPorscheGuy......why did you take the "he is in control, he is a predator, he is playing the game, he is sleeping with them both all the time" attitude?? Does my situation hit a personal spark in you somewhere? I found in reading your initial reply (before you edited it), some anger towards me and/or this situation. The second reply showed less aggression. You seemed happiest that I was hurt by the "woods" encounter and stated that you hope that it happens again. I know you don't know me, so you can't hate me - but I'm getting a feeling this thread has hit a nerve somewhere inside you.

Do you want to talk about something?? Do you hate men who are capable of being in the situation I am in? Do you hate men who "use" people for their own pleasure? Do you hate it when men don't pay enough attention to their mates?

I'm not questioning your sexuality, but you are either gay or you are straight and have a hatred of "typical" men. There is some anger coming from you for some reason - am I even close in guessing something is bothering you???

...and thanks, by the way, for taking the time to give some input. Even if it was sort-of negative, I learned a lot from your words.


944S Boyeee

Outlaw952

#1 Yeah probably your clutch.

#2 Ex #1 sounds like she doesn't want you unless she can't have you. Ex #2 sounds like she isn't ready to commit (what stands out is the remark about it being a good thing to go out with you, but like it was bad? WTF?) Girl #3 sounds a bit more down to earth. When in doubt, punt. Also, I think you should have kicked the crap outta that drunk chump for even thinking about throwing stuff at your car. You can get shot for less here in Texas.

#3 I have no idea what to say about this BigPorscheGuy. Maybe P-car envy? LOL

nh3

Burning smell, that was an easy one. The ladies, well, sounds like a script from a soap opera. Doing a stint in the funny farm should have been a red flag, at least for me, and if she gave 2 ****s about you she wouldn't banged another guy in the woods at the hospital. The stripper, ex boyfriends, guys shoving $$$ in her orifices. Not what I would want a long term relationship with. I say go for the girl you never dated. You know what you have with 1 & 2 and it don't sound good. #3 sounds like a fresh start. You already walked through life with 1 & 2. Try some walking with #3. Just my opinion and good luck. BTW, glad to here the car is running good.

nh3

BigPorscheGuy39

lol Nice passive response!

I especially liked when you said "They know I'm very torn." I had this image of Anna Karinina, the femme fatale, torn between her love of her husband, the sensible bureaucrat, and the young verile Vronsky on his white charger.

Sigh. Such art. Your life is art! lol

The only difference I see between Anna Karinina and you is that instead of a Captain of the Military on a white horse, there's a stripper named "Shiela" on quaaludes, and you and she are barfing simultaneously into the toilet bowl, reaffirming your mutual love for one another and your special 'bond'.

It's close to Tolstoy, isn't it?

You asked: "Do you want to talk about something?"

No thanks.

You asked: "Do you hate men who are capable of being in the situation I am in?"

No, I sit in stunned tragic amusement at their life drama. I am in awe that these same characters usually father multiple children by multiple women and the State ends up picking up the tab in the end. I am angry that they are too afraid or stupid to confront their own actions with objectivity and self control.

You asked: "Do you hate men who "use" people for their own pleasure?"

No I don't 'hate' people of any gender for this act. I do avoid them in daily life. Typically, using people is the kind of action a fairly narcissistic and anti social person would perform. I'll recommend to my GF's 12 year old, and to my neices, if I'm ever asked, that she learn to value and appreciate people who care about others.

You asked: "Do you hate it when men don't pay enough attention to their mates?"

No I think behaviors like inattention can be unlearned. And often inattention is a very trivial matter to unlearn.

To answer your other question, about why and whether it sparked something in me, the answer is decidedly 'yes'. Even now, the game playing is evident in your speech. Rather than reflect on your own conduct, you switch focus back to me - just as you switched focus from your own 'relationship' with each woman towards the mental health of that woman, or towards the 'bad' ex boyfriend or the 'bad' mental patient who had sex with your ex. Or towards their actions. Seems you'll do anything to avoid being an active agent of change, primarily, I assume, because that warm cuccoon of passivity has done you so well for so long.

The reason I'm impatient with it is likely the same reason your friends are impatient with it. It's a game for you. I'm not unlike many counselors who eventually leave their clients because the client behavior seems a game, as would be common with BPD, or APD. It just takes a while to figure out.

And far from being 'happy' with your being hurt by your ex having sex in the woods, I was happy for her. To be truthful, I fail even now to see how you could be hurt by someone you freely admit as 'sick' or 'sad'. In my view, if your pity is real, then pity her. But don't play hurt now, cause that's even more pathetic. What you're saying is that you are emotionally hurt by a person you deem as sick and sad. Doesn't sound quite 'on' does it?

Frankly, she still seems, despite her spell in a mental hospital, the healthiest one of you. Is she manic-depressive by any chance? Late twenties early thirties? On lithium carbonate now?

Look, again, YOU initiated this conversation. YOU asked for the opinion of other people. YOU opened the curtain on this drama. Now, if you want it to be unpleasant, YOU can also make it that way. If you wanted to be molly coddled you should have put up a post saying "I need a hug". Fact is, you didn't. And I gave you my honest opinion. If you don't like it, then don't post requests for assistance like this on Rennlist.

Sami951

On the clutch issue; in my S, if I want to launch fast off the line and end up revving too high (5000+ rpm) before letting the clutch out, it doesn't grab and I end up having the revs staying around 7000 and the car taking off slowly while the clutch is burning happily... (but; around 4000rpm, clutch up and more gas -&gt; whee, wheelspin! <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> )

So probably when the chick was pulling off those powershifts, the clutch friction surface got a bit hot - note; I'm just guessing here, as I don't have a clue - and lost some of the grip... so then with that one particular shift, it just didn't grab -&gt; your engine runs to around 7000 rpm, and the tranny doesn't catch up fast enough.

Now, I don't do powershifts with my car, but when abusing the dad's Passat it's another story - and after some beating, I get the clutch smell.

It's probably OK now, you just lost some of the friction material - and that's just something that wears out anyway

Sami951

And then, about the chicks; my personal opinion is to not worry about ex's and whatever problems they might have. Being friends with them is cool, but don't get too involved - somebody will always get hurt. Now, I don't know about the history behind this all, but think about it - if things didn't work out before, would they really now? People don't change.

Going after the new girl sounds like the best plan.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Jeff928S4

Gotta run home - be back tomorrow......but before I go....

BigPorscheGuy - this isn't about how I treat them or what I'm doing wrong. I'm a saint when it comes to how I treat them - why else would two hot girls have anything to do with me? I'm a really great guy and have been a super-friend to both of them. Every other guy in their life has used them for sex and dumped them. They both have never had a meaningful relationship. Guys just won't "love" them. I put aside my sexual drive and focussed on who they were. I like these people for who they are. Damn it - I think I deserve credit for taking the time to listen to them and put up with their problems, nobody else on this planet has ever done it for them....and no, that is not my "hook" - I don't find weak-minded girls and prey on them. I'm above that.

I didn't say ex #1 was sick or sad - just the situation in the woods was not her best moment.

I truly hope you don't think I'm deflecting here. By telling the whole situation, I need to put focus on others. I need to have the readers here see what I'm dealing with. I will admit, these girls do have problems, but that is not the cause of my confusion, but rather the fact that I care so deeply for both of them. I will honestly say right now that I don't truly "love" either one because neither has opened up to me enough to let themselves be loved. I wasn't trying to deflect anything on to you at all....it was just very interesting how you re-acted to this thread. I have never seen you so "fired-up".

You are obviously highly intelligent (and I'm not saying that to win you over or gain trust or what ever else you're thinking right now) and I respect your thoughts. Lets drop the underlining focusses and deal with what I'm saying. There is no hidden text or agenda in my thoughts right now. What you are reading is what I'm thinking. I'm not hiding things or wrapping ideas around plans or playing games. I really need advice. I see what your saying about the situation though and I do tend to deflect sometimes, but not in this case.

Please explain what you think my real problem here is - put aside your analysis of my thought pattern and look at the situation. I know you can help.

See ya'a all tomorrow...


944S Boyeee

...and by the way - option #4 was funny.

BigPorscheGuy39

Ok I'm giving one final response and then I'm done with it. The GF is having make up applied to her face by the 12 year old and patience is running thin here in my house. Already two cats have come running past me in great fear. I won't tell you too much about me, because I'm kind of irrelevant to this process and my life really isn't so interesting. However, for those taking money for a pool, or laying bets, I'm not gay. I don't even play piano or wear spandex! I'm not a psychiatrist, but I've got some experience from my own youth. And I'm not angry, but I really believe confrontation can be useful. And these are my standards, not yours, so I'm not arbiter of right and wrong here. I'm just giving my opinion.

The women talking about sex with other men around you was disrespectful, sure. But you raised the curtain on that particular drama, so you don't have much of a claim here. While you thought you were enjoying the power of having all these femmes in the car simultaneously, my bet is that they caught on to that game and decided to give some back. They did. And the message sent to you was "You're not special to us" and the message they sent each other, publicly, to gain comaraderie was "He's not so important to me - girl to girl, he's not important to me". Bummer eh? The cool part is that they probably didn't do it consciously, and that thought probably never went through their minds! It just 'happened'.

Needing to gather multiple members of the opposite sex, whether for affection or sex, is still the act of a needy person. In some, like Clinton, it was tolerated while young, but viewed as a tad immature and lacking in character by the time the man was in his 50's. In other words, being sociopathic*, or histrionic, towards women by garnering their multiple affections and then experiencing confusion when decision time comes, is acceptable for men in their young twenties. By the mid-thirties, it's odd, and by your fourties, it's tiresome and women (and your family) will have had enough. Read about Don Juan. It's not attractive. It's well documented I think even on the web. Even if you're not a Don Juan***, try reading this anyways:
<a href="http://www.gordonbanks.com/gordon/pubs/donjuan.html" target="_blank">http://www.gordonbanks.com/gordon/pubs/donjuan.html</a>

To define, by sociopathic I mean impulsive, with lack of concern for other people's feelings (i.e., the Monday Tuesday Wednesday night multiple germ swap sessions) a tendency to game with people, or trick, for amusement. And by histrionic I mean fleeting emotions, need to be the centre of attention, rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotion (i.e., in one post, above, you love both women, but in another later post, you say you don't truly love either woman), using physical appearance as a way of drawing attention to yourself as the underdog, an impressionistic style of speech, lacking in detail, self-dramatization, exaggerated expression, and considering of relationships as more intimate than they really are (i.e., seeing the toilet barf experience as grounds for a special bond).

You probably don't understand what is meant by 'lack of concern for their feelings'. What is meant is this: It matters not whether you are 'there for them' listening and being a nice guy. They hurt anyway. You had one woman to your house one night, another woman the next night, and so on, until your weiner hurt. Whether you know it or not, each woman knew. How? A piece of hair here, a lipstick stain on a glass there, they see the second pillow on your bed depressed, your conversation in bed lacking in detail and depth, you fail to 'connect' with her in bed, or fail to be interested in 'her'. Trust me, they know. And nobody feels nothing. Every person feels something at these times. It's human.

Now go back to the car experience. Here, you've gathered all these women into the same car to 'have fun'. But are they having fun? Or is even one of them feeling humiliated or foolish as a member of your 'harem'? Do you KNOW their feelings? Would one even trust to tell you if one figured out her feelings? I'll bet a buck the one driving aggressively wasn't particularly pleased and I bet her revving the Porsche to 7000+ RPM was about as 'accidental' as your act of using her as a lever, a mere tool, an object, to engender jealousy in Ex#1. Whether you realize it or not she was communicating to you.

You think because you've compartmentalized each event (like Clinton compartmentalized the affair with Lewinsky) and handily used Lawyerese to justify the technically broken up status of each relationship that you've been faithful. You haven't. You've screwed back and forth with each one and each time you've done it they've hurt.** They don't say so because, to be brutally honest, they don't trust you enough to reveal that vulnerability to you. They'll spread their legs, but they'll never 'connect' with a man they don't trust, and that 'connecting' is more than a bedtime happening.

And how could someone in that car connect anyway? Your/their answer to commitment or involvement is "Whatever happens happens" or "C'est la vie!". So you leave it to fate. Passivity. Life hands you a bowl of shxx and you say "Life handed me a bowl of shxx". How's a person to depend on you with that kind of attitude? If you want a relationship you work for it, assuming that you want it. If you don't want it, fine. Be 'pals' with them all and take sloppy seconds in between their lovemaking sessions with their ex-boyfriends.

Look, if you're gonna be 'fluid' with your affections towards these women, pardon the imagery, then take a drink of Scotch, then look yourself in the mirror, and honestly say "I'm gonna have sex with them, or romance them. I will commit to no one, I will tell them of my intent to have multiple partners cause I've got the guts to be as straight with them as I am with myself. I will no longer use the 'confused guy' smoke screen to fool them and fool myself. And if I do lie to them, and elect to be truthful to myself, I'm going lie the best lie ever. I'll lie remorselessly and fearlessly to get what I want." My bet is you can get away with this for a couple of years, probably into your mid thirties. So try it, if you like. But do it with impunity, do it gleefully, and do it because it makes you happy to do so. Your confusion will vanish and you'll see things more clearly.

If you're going to commit to one of these women, and be 'solid' for one, then do so. Once you do, avoid the others. Friends are nice. But friends also should be understanding that a 'non-sexual' relationship sometimes isn't possible. A mature person knows this is sometimes the case. Also, if you're going to do this, seek counseling. You can't do this on your own. You need to learn how.

If you choose to commit yet keep the others around, admit to yourself they're just insurance for an admittedly weak ego, one that can't stand being alone and sees himself in a lower league than these women - a league where appearance is the standard. You'll potentially screw up, and be in worse hot water, maybe with a child - but, hey, that shouldn't bother you: C'est la vie! N'est ce pas? Whatever happens, happens. Right?

Thing is, we can't help you 'choose' which woman is best. Such a checklist of characteristics has nothing whatever to do with success. Sure, dating a stripper can be hard to explain to your Mother. So, be smart, don't date the stripper. But aside from limiting factors like 'slutitude', it's seldom the person you choose that determines relationship success. Your relationships are on the rocks because of HOW you performed each relationship, not WHO you chose. If you want success, think 'process', not 'person'. So, regarding 'process', it's important that you learn your weaknesses and limitations and then adjust or modulate your behavior premised on awareness of these tendencies - Plato's 'Know thyself' comes to mind. Stop romancing around and stop justifying it to yourself with weak-kneed excuses.

And if it's any consolation, I wouldn't be too upset by your Ex#1's having sex with a patient. If she's down off a manic high, and the haldol wore off (which is I assume what was used to keep her mania at bay), what she did is very common (i.e., hypersexuality) and she's doing no more than scratching an itch. It's still salvagable. If it were me, I'd apologise to the nutcase for any wrongs I'd done. I'd get to know her better. I'd find out if she means something to me and I'd give it time to flourish or fail. And I'd do so without the other women around as useful tools of distraction.

* This doesn't necessarily imply you are a sociopath, or histrionic, only that you've chosen behavior patterns that are not out of line with that of some sociopaths and hystrionics. I don't think you're sick, but I think you've adopted some habits that are sick remnants of our culture. Counseling wouldn't hurt.

** "At one point, ex #2 slept in my bed on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday night (then went to see her ex) and ex #1 spent Wednesday, Thursday and Friday in my bed and ex #2 was back for Saturday and Sunday, etc, etc (after returning from her ex's place)."

*** Intentions: Nobody, even Don Juan, intends to hurt someone else. Everyone wants to be treating people best. The point of the article I posted was an analysis beneath the surface of what Don Juan would actually say about his own behavior. The point of reading that psychiatrist's evaluation of Don Juan is to learn how it might be that one's actions so closely resemble that of the protagonist. Then, if one is repulsed, to take that learning and ensure one's own life doesn't mirror that of Don Juan.