Another thread about autoX tires
04-07-2003, 09:57 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
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Another thread about autoX tires
I read some other autoX related threads about tires and have a question.
The 951 I'm getting this week has michellin pilot xgt h4 tires. H speed rated all season tires.
My main reason for owning the car will be autoX, so obviously I'll want to get rid of these tires.
I'm used to autoXing on Falken Azenis Sport tires on my Acura, so I'd like to get a comparable tire for the Porsche. I'm thinking of the Kuhmo Ecsta Supra 712s. They have a stiff sidewall and great grip according to some Acura owners I've talked to.
Are they good tires on a 944 Turbo? Are there better dry autoX tires that are still durable enough for daily driving in the $90-$100 range that fit on the stock rims (16x7/16x8)?
I don't think I'm ready to race r-compound (I'm still a noob), so even though they're grippier, they're not in the consideration here.
And I live in Phoenix, so the tires that boast "the best compromise between dry and wet performance" are useless to me; if it rains, I'll drive my Acura.
Thanks.
The 951 I'm getting this week has michellin pilot xgt h4 tires. H speed rated all season tires.
My main reason for owning the car will be autoX, so obviously I'll want to get rid of these tires.
I'm used to autoXing on Falken Azenis Sport tires on my Acura, so I'd like to get a comparable tire for the Porsche. I'm thinking of the Kuhmo Ecsta Supra 712s. They have a stiff sidewall and great grip according to some Acura owners I've talked to.
Are they good tires on a 944 Turbo? Are there better dry autoX tires that are still durable enough for daily driving in the $90-$100 range that fit on the stock rims (16x7/16x8)?
I don't think I'm ready to race r-compound (I'm still a noob), so even though they're grippier, they're not in the consideration here.
And I live in Phoenix, so the tires that boast "the best compromise between dry and wet performance" are useless to me; if it rains, I'll drive my Acura.
Thanks.
04-08-2003, 10:56 AM
#2
Race Director
How much autocross experience do you have?
On 16x7 rims, you could go upsize from 205/55's (stock) to 225/50's. That will help dial out some of the understeer our cars exhibit. Also, on the rear, you can go up from 225/50's to 245/45's. You shouldn't experience any tire rubbing with 225/50 front, and 245/45 rear.
Having said that, a friend of mine was out on the track (Lime Rock Park - PCA DE event) with the Ecsta Supra 712's last week, and he was very surpirsed by the grip these street tires offered. (Bob runs in the black run group with NNJR's DE) For one run, he and I were on the track at the same time, (I run in white) and when he passed me, I could see that he was really working the tires! But the "sticktion" was pretty good.
I am considering the Kumho Victoracer V700's when my Dunlops finally start to cord, which should be soon...
Hope this helps,
-Zoltan.
On 16x7 rims, you could go upsize from 205/55's (stock) to 225/50's. That will help dial out some of the understeer our cars exhibit. Also, on the rear, you can go up from 225/50's to 245/45's. You shouldn't experience any tire rubbing with 225/50 front, and 245/45 rear.
Having said that, a friend of mine was out on the track (Lime Rock Park - PCA DE event) with the Ecsta Supra 712's last week, and he was very surpirsed by the grip these street tires offered. (Bob runs in the black run group with NNJR's DE) For one run, he and I were on the track at the same time, (I run in white) and when he passed me, I could see that he was really working the tires! But the "sticktion" was pretty good.
I am considering the Kumho Victoracer V700's when my Dunlops finally start to cord, which should be soon...
Hope this helps,
-Zoltan.
04-08-2003, 01:18 PM
#3
Race Director
Ag951:
Welcome to the world of the 951 and autocrossing.
This past weekend I ran my stock turbo S at the Phoenix PCA event vs my 944-spec car that I had been running for the past 3 years. It was about 4-5 seconds slower than what I could could have been in the spec car. This was due to tires, suspension, and turbo lag. It as fun anyway!
Ecsta 712 is decient street tire and will work ok at autocross. Being new r-tire are not good to get right way. Run on the streets for a season then go to r-tires. Unfortuanlty street tires will only get you midpack at most of our local PCA event no mater how good you are. Race tires make that much of a difference.
225/50 and 245/45 are good sizes to run
When and where do you plan on Autocrossing?
Here are a couple of groups to run with.
<a href="http://az.pca.org" target="_blank">Az PCA </a>
Next Event - April 27th Continious laps and the most run time of any local ax!
<a href="http://www.nasa-az.org/nasa/nasax/mainsite.html" target="_blank">NASA - Autocross </a>
Next Event April 12th (This saturday on the largest skid pad in the southwest)
<a href="http://www.azsolo2.com/" target="_blank">Arizona SCCA - Solo II</a>
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
Welcome to the world of the 951 and autocrossing.
This past weekend I ran my stock turbo S at the Phoenix PCA event vs my 944-spec car that I had been running for the past 3 years. It was about 4-5 seconds slower than what I could could have been in the spec car. This was due to tires, suspension, and turbo lag. It as fun anyway!
Ecsta 712 is decient street tire and will work ok at autocross. Being new r-tire are not good to get right way. Run on the streets for a season then go to r-tires. Unfortuanlty street tires will only get you midpack at most of our local PCA event no mater how good you are. Race tires make that much of a difference.
225/50 and 245/45 are good sizes to run
When and where do you plan on Autocrossing?
Here are a couple of groups to run with.
<a href="http://az.pca.org" target="_blank">Az PCA </a>
Next Event - April 27th Continious laps and the most run time of any local ax!
<a href="http://www.nasa-az.org/nasa/nasax/mainsite.html" target="_blank">NASA - Autocross </a>
Next Event April 12th (This saturday on the largest skid pad in the southwest)
<a href="http://www.azsolo2.com/" target="_blank">Arizona SCCA - Solo II</a>
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
04-08-2003, 07:37 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
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Z-man,
2 events 20 runs. A serious newbie. I'll see what I can find in those wider sizes. I have to stay on stock rims though, so I'll stay stock for scca.
I'll see what options I have with the larger sizes you recommended.
M758,
I went to the March SCCA and NASA events (pre-Porsche) and I'm pre-registered for this weekend's two events in my RSX Type-S (I hope the nasa-x timing issues are fixed).
I plan to join the local PCA and run with them too, so I'll probably see you there.
spidey,
I'd love azenis sports, but the closest model to what the 951 wears in the back would reduce the tire circumference by 5%. If they made a 225/50-16, I'd buy some in a second.
2 events 20 runs. A serious newbie. I'll see what I can find in those wider sizes. I have to stay on stock rims though, so I'll stay stock for scca.
I'll see what options I have with the larger sizes you recommended.
M758,
I went to the March SCCA and NASA events (pre-Porsche) and I'm pre-registered for this weekend's two events in my RSX Type-S (I hope the nasa-x timing issues are fixed).
I plan to join the local PCA and run with them too, so I'll probably see you there.
spidey,
I'd love azenis sports, but the closest model to what the 951 wears in the back would reduce the tire circumference by 5%. If they made a 225/50-16, I'd buy some in a second.
04-08-2003, 08:31 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
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I just looked up the sizes Z-man suggested on tirerack and I have some nice options, including kuhmo victoracer v700s! I think I'll wait until next year before I get any race tires though.
Thanks for the good advice.
Thanks for the good advice.
04-08-2003, 09:02 PM
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Hey,
I ran on Ecsta 712s at AutoX twice this season. They are a good overall street tire, a bit slick in the rain and completely useless in the snow.
They do have a relatively stiff sidewall, however the tread design incorporates many angulated blocks into its pattern. IMO you want very large tread blocks on an autox tire. The more tread blocks you have the more surface area per tire. This increased surface area is subject to "rounding off" during hard cornering. I prefer a tire with much larger tread blocks to avoid this.
But then again its a good cheap alternative to the more popular name brands without dipping into the R compounds. I've got these tires on my Eclipse fwd which puts a lot of load and stress on the front tires. The next best tire for autox is the Kumho Ecsta MX, unfortunately they only make it in 205/55/16 and 225/50/16. Looks like they cater to the 17 inchers and up.
Good luck! There is no replacement for seat time. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
I ran on Ecsta 712s at AutoX twice this season. They are a good overall street tire, a bit slick in the rain and completely useless in the snow.
They do have a relatively stiff sidewall, however the tread design incorporates many angulated blocks into its pattern. IMO you want very large tread blocks on an autox tire. The more tread blocks you have the more surface area per tire. This increased surface area is subject to "rounding off" during hard cornering. I prefer a tire with much larger tread blocks to avoid this.
But then again its a good cheap alternative to the more popular name brands without dipping into the R compounds. I've got these tires on my Eclipse fwd which puts a lot of load and stress on the front tires. The next best tire for autox is the Kumho Ecsta MX, unfortunately they only make it in 205/55/16 and 225/50/16. Looks like they cater to the 17 inchers and up.
Good luck! There is no replacement for seat time. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
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04-08-2003, 10:48 PM
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I think this thread is the perfect opportunity for me to thank some of the folks on this board who've given me guidance on autox tires (Skip). I ran in the local SCCA cobweb shaker event two weeks ago, and took a second (of seven cars) in E stock. Although the day was cold (44ish) and windy, preventing anyones R tires from doing all they could, My VictoRacers were a marked improvement over last years street tires. This sunday will be the years first points event, and promises to be warmer, and I'll be doin' my very damndest to get another trophy, and start accumulating some points in the series. I'd really like to have a reason to attend the year-end banquet in January. With any luck, you'll hear me crowin' next week.
04-09-2003, 12:17 AM
#9
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by teklord:
<strong>The more tread blocks you have the more surface area per tire. This increased surface area is subject to "rounding off" during hard cornering. I prefer a tire with much larger tread blocks to avoid this.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It's not just a large tread block that one must consider: it's also tread depth. If you have deep tread, then the tire will get 'squishy' and handle less precise under hard cornering. So, for autocross, a smaller tread depth is preferred. R-compound tires have very little tread depth.
-Zoltan.
<strong>The more tread blocks you have the more surface area per tire. This increased surface area is subject to "rounding off" during hard cornering. I prefer a tire with much larger tread blocks to avoid this.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It's not just a large tread block that one must consider: it's also tread depth. If you have deep tread, then the tire will get 'squishy' and handle less precise under hard cornering. So, for autocross, a smaller tread depth is preferred. R-compound tires have very little tread depth.
-Zoltan.
04-09-2003, 04:27 AM
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I put on the new Kuhmo Ecsta MX's on my 16 X 7 inch rims (225's all around)- $109 each from Tire Rack. Supposedly much better than the 712's and in a test comparison they were close to the BFG KD's and Michelin Pilot Sports, which are much more expensive.
Have autocrossed with them and they worked very well. These are a great tire to both drive on and autocross in my opinion. Of course, if you get real serious about autocrossing, then an R compound tire will be required. I've been buying used Hoosier road race tires (very cheap and still have a good life left) from the local SCCA guys to use on my old 15" rims which all fit in the back of the car, but if it's raining, I just keep the Kuhmos on the car and use those.
Have autocrossed with them and they worked very well. These are a great tire to both drive on and autocross in my opinion. Of course, if you get real serious about autocrossing, then an R compound tire will be required. I've been buying used Hoosier road race tires (very cheap and still have a good life left) from the local SCCA guys to use on my old 15" rims which all fit in the back of the car, but if it's raining, I just keep the Kuhmos on the car and use those.
04-09-2003, 08:37 AM
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I run 215/45's azenis on my car and its also a 5% drop in circumfrence as well. All that does is give me better gearing for auto-x, which actually helps alot. That little bit of extra acceleration makes the difference on short courses. It hurts a little when I go to the track and run out of gear down the straight, but it's a good tradeoff in my mind. The tires are worth it, check any street tire (STS,STX) national results and see how many run the falkens. The previously mentioned Kumho MX's are getting some good reviews, maybe give them a shot if they have them in your size.
As for R's- they have a steep learning curve, are $$$ and some classes are street tire only so they may not be an option for you.
good luck
As for R's- they have a steep learning curve, are $$$ and some classes are street tire only so they may not be an option for you.
good luck
04-09-2003, 11:54 AM
#12
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Ag951:
<strong>
M758,
I went to the March SCCA and NASA events (pre-Porsche) and I'm pre-registered for this weekend's two events in my RSX Type-S (I hope the nasa-x timing issues are fixed).
I plan to join the local PCA and run with them too, so I'll probably see you there.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Ag951,
I will be out at the Road Course this weekend racing my spec car so I will be just up the paddock area. Jason is talking like the timming issues will be taken care of this time out. I have run with SCCA once for Ax and found it to be too little track time. I have not had the time to run with NASA-x yet, but may do so for the May 17th event. I have been doing PCA for about 4 years now. I just started racing about a year ago. It has been really fun.
Anyway best to stay on street tires for a season or until they run wear out then change to r-tires. Ever run do DE on a road course yet?
<strong>
M758,
I went to the March SCCA and NASA events (pre-Porsche) and I'm pre-registered for this weekend's two events in my RSX Type-S (I hope the nasa-x timing issues are fixed).
I plan to join the local PCA and run with them too, so I'll probably see you there.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Ag951,
I will be out at the Road Course this weekend racing my spec car so I will be just up the paddock area. Jason is talking like the timming issues will be taken care of this time out. I have run with SCCA once for Ax and found it to be too little track time. I have not had the time to run with NASA-x yet, but may do so for the May 17th event. I have been doing PCA for about 4 years now. I just started racing about a year ago. It has been really fun.
Anyway best to stay on street tires for a season or until they run wear out then change to r-tires. Ever run do DE on a road course yet?
04-09-2003, 03:37 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by spidey:
<strong>I run 215/45's azenis on my car and its also a 5% drop in circumfrence as well. All that does is give me better gearing for auto-x, which actually helps alot. That little bit of extra acceleration makes the difference on short courses. It hurts a little when I go to the track and run out of gear down the straight, but it's a good tradeoff in my mind. The tires are worth it, check any street tire (STS,STX) national results and see how many run the falkens. The previously mentioned Kumho MX's are getting some good reviews, maybe give them a shot if they have them in your size.
As for R's- they have a steep learning curve, are $$$ and some classes are street tire only so they may not be an option for you.
good luck</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I might do that if I had a separate set of street wheels, but I don't want to mess up the speedometer. Also, if I can get something in the 225-245 range instead of 215, it might be better to get a different tire.
But I love the Azenis sports too. I run them on my acura and they grip beautifully.
<strong>I run 215/45's azenis on my car and its also a 5% drop in circumfrence as well. All that does is give me better gearing for auto-x, which actually helps alot. That little bit of extra acceleration makes the difference on short courses. It hurts a little when I go to the track and run out of gear down the straight, but it's a good tradeoff in my mind. The tires are worth it, check any street tire (STS,STX) national results and see how many run the falkens. The previously mentioned Kumho MX's are getting some good reviews, maybe give them a shot if they have them in your size.
As for R's- they have a steep learning curve, are $$$ and some classes are street tire only so they may not be an option for you.
good luck</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I might do that if I had a separate set of street wheels, but I don't want to mess up the speedometer. Also, if I can get something in the 225-245 range instead of 215, it might be better to get a different tire.
But I love the Azenis sports too. I run them on my acura and they grip beautifully.
04-09-2003, 03:42 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by M758:
<strong> I will be out at the Road Course this weekend racing my spec car so I will be just up the paddock area. Jason is talking like the timming issues will be taken care of this time out. I have run with SCCA once for Ax and found it to be too little track time. I have not had the time to run with NASA-x yet, but may do so for the May 17th event. I have been doing PCA for about 4 years now. I just started racing about a year ago. It has been really fun.
Anyway best to stay on street tires for a season or until they run wear out then change to r-tires. Ever run do DE on a road course yet?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The six hours for five minutes of seat-time is annoying about scca.
What's the DE? Is that where lots of people run together? My insurance doesn't cover any racing, but if it's 'educational', I think they do. I wouldn't want to go on a road course unless I'm alone or covered by insurance.
<strong> I will be out at the Road Course this weekend racing my spec car so I will be just up the paddock area. Jason is talking like the timming issues will be taken care of this time out. I have run with SCCA once for Ax and found it to be too little track time. I have not had the time to run with NASA-x yet, but may do so for the May 17th event. I have been doing PCA for about 4 years now. I just started racing about a year ago. It has been really fun.
Anyway best to stay on street tires for a season or until they run wear out then change to r-tires. Ever run do DE on a road course yet?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The six hours for five minutes of seat-time is annoying about scca.
What's the DE? Is that where lots of people run together? My insurance doesn't cover any racing, but if it's 'educational', I think they do. I wouldn't want to go on a road course unless I'm alone or covered by insurance.
04-09-2003, 04:13 PM
#15
Race Director
Some insurance carriers cover "Driver Education" events. I have heard of some that have paid out and other that did not or only did so after much effort. A DE is for educational purposes with strict rules on passing and each driver must show significant track skill and safety before they are allowed to drive without an instructor. Driver' Ed is NOT racing, but there will be multiple cars on the track at once.
In any event contact between cars or with other objects is very rare. In fact I can only remember 1 incident in 5 years where two street cars came together and this was due to "single car" incident where that car was out of control. Even in the race groups contact is quite rare.
The AMP road course is very nice since there is very little to hit if you go off track.
Personlly Autcross is fun, but is 5-6 min of "track time" with 8 hours of waiting. At at DE you can expect over an hour of track time in the same day's time with no need to "work the course" (unless you want to and then they give discounts or cash for your time)
I started doing DE in Jan 1999 at PIR after about 4 autocrosses. Have been doing DE's until I began to race in April of last year. There are some guys that have been doing DE for years and would never dream about stopping.
In any event contact between cars or with other objects is very rare. In fact I can only remember 1 incident in 5 years where two street cars came together and this was due to "single car" incident where that car was out of control. Even in the race groups contact is quite rare.
The AMP road course is very nice since there is very little to hit if you go off track.
Personlly Autcross is fun, but is 5-6 min of "track time" with 8 hours of waiting. At at DE you can expect over an hour of track time in the same day's time with no need to "work the course" (unless you want to and then they give discounts or cash for your time)
I started doing DE in Jan 1999 at PIR after about 4 autocrosses. Have been doing DE's until I began to race in April of last year. There are some guys that have been doing DE for years and would never dream about stopping.