Danno

I think is probably more of a problem with your electric sunroof mechanism; it doesn't fully latch down and lock. With my Saratoga top, I can do 160mph+ and it doesn't lift or make noise at all. I can even raise it and lower it at that speed without any problems.

Tom R.

Dan P and Danno,
check the gasket on your tops. Is it indented DanP from the pressure of the roof's weatherstripping, or still flat Danno from not yet being worn in?

If someone helps me, I will upload a picture of mine which is worn in and does exacty what DanP says.

Rog

There is _no_ way a top that mounts like ours (the clamps don't even compress the rubber seals that much) contributes anything to rigidity. You could get the same sort of 'increase' (i.e. approximately none) by running a bead of RTV in some random pattern on your roof.

Some sunroofs (all heavy with large metal frames) add a little, but not much. Look, anything that rattle around is contributing, at most, two things. Mass and Shade. You can be sure the small improvement in weight achieved by removing the roof is vastly greater than than the zero-improvement in rigidity you get by installing it.

hth
later
roger

Mike 89 NA

I seem to remember an Australian company offering a top like this. Anyone remember? I'll try to find the link.

Mike

ColinM

I'd be interested at the right price and quality just like everyone else....

ColinM
86 951

Robby

Rog,
that was exactly my point, as Ahmet (in particualar) races his w/the sunroof panel completely removed...

Tom,
I hope that my remark about the rigidity thing didn't come across in a negative manner (I inserted the wink icon to show a positive tone)- I say this, b/c you never know how someone's going to take something. At any rate, it's hard for me to imagine the roof really twisting around anymore w/a plastic top in, than the stock top, but I could be wrong. Are the stock panels really fiberglass, or are they something else? I would think they would almost have to be welded to actually help the rigidity(?). As for the panel catching wind, while removing and installing, this would have to happen only when trying to remove it while driving wouldn't it? I mean, is there any other way it would happen? If it's in place, then it shouldn't catch wind(?) You're right about the scratching, Lexan hatches scrath worse than glass, but since it's on top of the car (the sunroof), then I doubt that would be as much of a concern- of course, I could be wrong...

Tom R.

Robby,

When I first autocrossed my car, I had the top up. An old timer told me to close the top because the twist might make the latches snap.

I think the technical term is lataral stiffness. Something my 68 firebird convertible doesnt have. If I drive up a curb with one wheel, other body panels go out of line.

From what I gather, under EXTREME stress/twisting, the glass top could shatter. Too lazy to find out, I wont autocross with the glass roof on.

Schneider

Another word of caution. Lexan is very succeptable to UV. Longevity should be a big consideration. We (Air Force) spent tons of money trying to make lexan canopies more durable. I've been told the lexan rear windows and hatches don't last more than a few years before they start to spider badly. Also, lexan and amonia DON'T mix. You can ruin lexan in a matter of months if you clean it with amonia based products (read windex).

Robby

Tom,

maybe it could have a little influence on the rigidity thing- I've never personally tested my theory on the subject though. As for the convertible, yes, they are much more difficult to keep straight. Especially when we're talking about older ones- the newer one's like the Honda S2000 are supposed to have remarkable chassis, but then again, every time I turn around, I read about how a new Acura has increased chassis stiffness in bending and torsion by almost 100%. Seems to me, that we must have been driving cars made of Jello back in the late '80's Anyway, the S2000 may be a great chassis for a convertible, and it may compare to other Hondas that are coupes, but I can't see how it could really compare too well w/a good solid one. You just can't tie the open ends together w/out a roof- even if it were made w/out doors (then you'd have to get in "Dukes Of Hazzard" style ), you still couldn't tie the top half of the car down unless you had a pretty large roll cage...

As for the longevity of Lexan, yes, that's another problem, and is the main reason why I don't have a Lexan windshield- that would be a great way to remove weight. People do it to their hatches, but that's removing weight from the wrong end of the car. If I were going to do that, I'd want to make both front and rear Lexan to kind of balance it out. But, making a sunroof out of it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal. I don't know, this isn't my project, and I don't have enough experience w/Lexan to say one way or the other. I'd just really like to find a way to get the panel down to under 10lbs, otherwise, I might just stick w/my original plan and buy the CF one from Garrity for under $400 that weighs ~4lbs (saving 15lbs total off the high point of the car ) and just remove it a lot more often. I still might like something see- through for occasional use though, so, either way, I'd like to see this project come to exist- as long as it could at least save a couple of lbs, like the original Saratoga's...

Danno

Well, I checked out about 25 Honda S2000s at Willow Springs a couple of months ago. These things are STIFF. The natural frequency of the body is definitely stiffer than my 951. Did the jacking up the car in the center and checked the door-closing test on them. No difference! The door opened and closed with the same feel and sound. On the 951, I definitely have to push a little harder on the door, and I can feel the latch rubbing when it's jacked up.

I'm sure the heavy Saratoga sunroof had something to do with it . Anyway, my carbon-fibre panel will weigh less than 3-lbs (manual locking with wingnuts though).

TaboII

OK, well I promised good news as soon as I had any so here goes. I suppose at this point in the game I suppose it is all right to explain in more detail just what it is that I have been attempting to do. I had, as with many of you became interested in getting moon roof for my 944 the moment I found out that there was on to be had. Well to my, and all of our dismay we found that there were no longer any of these tops being made, leaving us to bid on what was left in the market to those lucky few that could get there hands on one. Well as we all know there where some very high prices paid for some of these tops that are 10+ years old topping “Pardon the pun” 6-700 dollars. This started me to thinking and what I came up with was to attempt and reproduce what Saratoga Technology no longer wished to produce for those of us who would like to get more light into our lives. The negotiations with the original patent holder on this top are complete with a very positive note. I now have been given full ok to use their plans and top to attempt and reproduce these tops for all of us. On the down side of this note there are few plans and or information left for me to work with. However, This only means that I have but to use the existing top as a template and work to improve it’s design. Not a problem. I am working on a prototype at this moment and should have at least something to show for my efforts soon. There are still some very difficult roads to cross in this endeavor. Tooling and product costs i.e. glass and or Lexan are not cheap by any means. The worst-case scenario is 20k for the glass tooling costs and considerably less for the Lexan. However, in the Lexan case the raw product actually costs more than the raw product cost for glass. “GO figure” Not to boar you with details but there also is a capitol investment to be made in all the product, to the tune of almost 100k in order start to bring this to you all. SO I am off for now, to work on the prototype as well as start looking for the capitol to make this investment. Not an impossible task to beat but a formidable one to say the least. I will continue to keep you all up to date as things progress so as not to keep you in the dark. I am off to do what must be done for the sake of the entire realm of enthusiast out there. Oh!! One more thing, Could all of you do me a favor? I am looking for a busted Saratoga top. With at leas some of the glass intact. This does not have to be a complete top. I need to use a couple of pieces in the attempt to get some of the monuments used in the making of this product. My goal is to solve completely the leaking and rattling that came from the original as well as attempt and improve on the whole product. Any assistance would be appreciated and helpful to say the least. Keep your fingers crossed “Not that luck has anything to do with this” but every little bit helps.

I am also looking for any one with connections to injection molding industry with some experience dealing with this sort of thing that could lend me a hand. I know nothing of injection molding and I feel that I may be getting the run around by some of the large companies that do this sort of thing.

Good day to all of you and I will be updating as often as things develop.

Thanks for the interest and opinions keep them coming.

Robby

100K? As in $100,000!? I don't know how you could ever hope to recoupe that much $$$ unless you planned on making these for other types of cars- this wouldn't be too bad, as there are many other German cars that only had metal sunroof panels- many (all?)Bimmers, the VW Corrado and earlier VW's, etc. At any rate, I'm glad you're willing to try to pull this off, and hope things work out. Please let us know more of the details on the Lexan VS glass thing when you can. Also, Garrity Repta might be a good person to contact- he's done lot's of panels for our cars out of carbon fibre and maybe fiberglass. He was who I planned to get to make the CF sunroof lid for my car. He has a shop called Performance Auto Works of St. Louis and his e-mail is either:

garrity928@primary.net

OR

garrity928@mindspring.net

It was originally the "primary" one, but changed for awhile... Anyway, he's a pretty busy guy- he does all kinds of work on Porsches including machine work, engine building, general service, and is very intelligent and knowledgeble about these cars...

TaboII

I have read the statements about the desire to reduce weight at the top of these cars by reducing the weight of the top itself. Now I am not a race mechanic but could see the benefit simply because it would be easer to remove and put on. I am a simple engineer. So I can understand the need to reduce the weight of the top in the most extreme racing cases. What I don’t understand is those of you out there that wish to have a lighter top in this case using Lexan, want this because of the savings of three pounds? Are there really those of you out there that are at the point of saving three or so pounds at the top of the car? What I suppose I am saying is that in order for there to be any real need to reduce that weight unless just it’s because you can, the modification to car that would already have to be done would be significant. i.e. Fiberglass fenders and hood to really make a difference, removal of all unnecessary components in the car etc. etc. Some how it just doesn’t make sense to me that three pounds off the top of the car would really make that much of a diff unless you where professionally racing these cars? Hey who am I to complain, if you want a lighter top then hopefully I can deliver you a lighter top. Another though about rigidity of the car. Considering the points that the sunroof currently attaches to, I doubt of this roof “Meaning the stock roof” actually adds much if little rigidity at all to the structural integrity of the vehicle. Certainly not a top of Lexan nor carbon fiber will assist in this. Something to think about, if the sunroof held any of the structural integrity of the vehicle then there never would have been a glass top made for this car. The mounted flexing of the glass would have shatters each and every top out there. if that where the case. I suppose that it is my humble opinion that there is little to no structural uses for the top mettle or other wise. I base this opinion on the simple connection that is made to connect the roof to the car. If there where some serious structural necessity for this top there would be much more formidable connection made to the to from the factory. Just my thoughts on this matter. I have to admit the topic does lend itself to some serious thought. Great discussions

Keep them coming.

TaboII

I have to answer this question so that my intent is understood. 100+ k investment is really not that much money when you get down to it. In any case I am not attempting this to get rich by any means. I will still be working my full time job at the same time. Here are my goals/points.

1) I want a Moon roof for may car!
2) I don’t think that I should have to pay 600+ dollars for one nor should any one else.
I believe that there are several others out there that would like the same thing, and are not willing to pay 600+ dollars for a moon roof that is 10+ years old.
3) Attempt and improve on the design to reduce leaking and rattling and to make a high quality product.
4) I do not want to make this a long-term project. I am planning on only making 1000 tops to start with. “I think there are a thousand 944/924/other owners out there that would be interested in owning a top such as this”. What do you think?
5) Keep the retail price to an affordable price. 400-450 is the goal here. Again I am not looking to retire.

When it is all said and done there will be many new moon roof owners happy to have their tops. Neither those that purchases the top or myself will have paid a lot for a great product that isn’t 10+ years old with known problems.

That’s about the bottom line. We’ll see where it goes. Maybe there will be a huge demand, maybe there will only be a thousand made and no more, maybe this product will start a new line of other project who knows, all I know is I want my moon roof and nothing is going to stop me from me getting my top.

Keep the comments coming this is an exciting project for me I hope all of you will feel the same with your new tops, as I know I will be.

Thanks for the input

Gary C2 UK

Good on you mate for trying this out!!

I'm in the UK but would still be interested if the quality is there. **** know's what the carraige would be!! No one would take this on in the UK cause the immediate market is not big enough. I think glass would be a better route that lexan though. Gives a more quality end result in my opinion.

Good luck with your endevours. Count me in as one of the 1k production run!!

BTW can anyone send me post a picture of the original version in and out of a car.

Regard,

Gary