Planning on buying 951...
04-21-2003, 07:37 PM
#1
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Planning on buying 951...
and I am trying to learn as much as possible before I even get a car. Does anyone have any tips on routine maintenance and any other useful information? Right now i drive a SAAB turbo, so I know my way around an engine, especially a turbo charged one. The 951 has always been my dream, and I'm fed up with my almost 200 HP SAAB, and want to move on. Thanks in advance.
04-21-2003, 08:50 PM
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Timing belts,waterpumps and head gaskets are important.... I understand..........as well as the usual maintenance and service history. Also 944 series prone to P.S. leaks, as well as engine mounts should be checked. Clutch replacement apparently is a BIG job. I would also check the condition on the suspension components as they can be pricy to upgrade/replace.
04-22-2003, 04:08 AM
#3
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Hey there, Tyler, and welcome! I'd really suggest you go and take a look around at our faqs on here, and go poke your head into the 951 specific forums.
Also check out <a href="http://www.clarks-garage.com" target="_blank">www.clarks-garage.com</a>
From what I understand about 951s, as long as you take care of them, they will respond accordingly.
kgain has good points; the suspension and related parts are more expensive than a regular 944, but they need the upgrade, to be more stable with the engine performance.
I would also suggest always running a Carfax on any car you are thinking of purchasing (Need VIN # for that) and also pay to have a good mechanic take a look at it first, or someone here that is knowledgeable.
For example, I almost bought a 944 that had a broken ignition (someone tried to steal it), had no idea if it would run. Tags expired, no smog done. I normally take a white sheeted notebook with me, and took out a long strip, and twisted it. I then dipped it into the antifreeze - came out with oil on it! So I took a look underneath, and sure enough, she's leaking oil from the headgasket. Who knows if it also had an oil cooler leak too, or not.
So, there you go. If you have AAA, you can also get a list of what they check out, when they look at your car. Might be on their site: <a href="http://www.AAA.com" target="_blank">www.AAA.com</a>
Anyway, you have come to the best online forum for this, and many of us would be happy to help you. Where in Cali are you? I"m behind the Orange Curtain. I personally found a 951 for me, just don't have the bucks for it.
Good luck!
- Julie
Also check out <a href="http://www.clarks-garage.com" target="_blank">www.clarks-garage.com</a>
From what I understand about 951s, as long as you take care of them, they will respond accordingly.
kgain has good points; the suspension and related parts are more expensive than a regular 944, but they need the upgrade, to be more stable with the engine performance.
I would also suggest always running a Carfax on any car you are thinking of purchasing (Need VIN # for that) and also pay to have a good mechanic take a look at it first, or someone here that is knowledgeable.
For example, I almost bought a 944 that had a broken ignition (someone tried to steal it), had no idea if it would run. Tags expired, no smog done. I normally take a white sheeted notebook with me, and took out a long strip, and twisted it. I then dipped it into the antifreeze - came out with oil on it! So I took a look underneath, and sure enough, she's leaking oil from the headgasket. Who knows if it also had an oil cooler leak too, or not.
So, there you go. If you have AAA, you can also get a list of what they check out, when they look at your car. Might be on their site: <a href="http://www.AAA.com" target="_blank">www.AAA.com</a>
Anyway, you have come to the best online forum for this, and many of us would be happy to help you. Where in Cali are you? I"m behind the Orange Curtain. I personally found a 951 for me, just don't have the bucks for it.
Good luck!
- Julie
04-22-2003, 04:19 AM
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Thanks for the replies! This forum seems every bit as good as the SAAB forum I go to for help with my 900! I will take all your tips into consideration when I start looking at cars (not for a while). I have also poked around the FAQ's and I think I have a grasp on what I am getting myself into. Thanks again!
04-22-2003, 04:25 AM
#5
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Tyler- there are sever writeups about purchasing a "watercooler". look hard- there are several what if's.. but once bitten your're in..
04-22-2003, 05:58 AM
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Be sure to familiarize yourself with the different variations of "944 turbo" that were built. They're detailed for you in the 924/944 FAQ.
The first turbos sold in the U.S. were MY1986. These are also the most abundant 951 because more of them were built than any other year (1985-1991)
The early 951 is a good buy if you're looking to modify the car (if it hasn't been already). One MAJOR caveat is the intake manifold which cracked in many cars and was recalled by the factory. Make sure the '86s you look at have been updated! Apparently, non-updated cars are a nightmare when it's time to replace the clutch.
The last cars offered in the U.S. were MY1989. These had substantial improvements over the earlier cars, including a larger turbo, and have higher resale value.
MY1990 and 1991 were not officially sold in the U.S., but I've seen several late turbos in Canada, some of which have made their way to the U.S.
The first turbos sold in the U.S. were MY1986. These are also the most abundant 951 because more of them were built than any other year (1985-1991)
The early 951 is a good buy if you're looking to modify the car (if it hasn't been already). One MAJOR caveat is the intake manifold which cracked in many cars and was recalled by the factory. Make sure the '86s you look at have been updated! Apparently, non-updated cars are a nightmare when it's time to replace the clutch.
The last cars offered in the U.S. were MY1989. These had substantial improvements over the earlier cars, including a larger turbo, and have higher resale value.
MY1990 and 1991 were not officially sold in the U.S., but I've seen several late turbos in Canada, some of which have made their way to the U.S.
04-22-2003, 09:13 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
I think you mean exhaust manifold, not the intake. Most, if not all of them have been done by now. You can tell the updated one because it has a bellows for expansion and contraction.
The '86 turbos are limited in wheel selection because they use an early offset. If you like the five spoke Fuchs wheels though, 86 is the only year they work on. The 86 has no airbags or anti lock brakes. It is the only year 951 to use forged connection rods. They are also the lightest wieght due to less equipment. More common on the 86's is the LSD and trans cooler. Lots of 87-88 cars lack this.
I had an 86 and loved it. I like the Fuchs wheels, the lightest and strongest out there. I like the absence of airbags, I don't want 15+ yr old explosives in my face. Anti locks would be nice but I never missed them on the street or track.
The 87-88 cars make better street cars because of the anti locks and airbags. The 86 is a great place to start if you intend to mod it, which you will
Any of these cars with a chip will blow your mind compared to the Saab. I would say that if you can do the waterpump on a Saab 900 turbo, you can do about anything to the 951. There are tons of good resources on the web.
Good Luck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
The '86 turbos are limited in wheel selection because they use an early offset. If you like the five spoke Fuchs wheels though, 86 is the only year they work on. The 86 has no airbags or anti lock brakes. It is the only year 951 to use forged connection rods. They are also the lightest wieght due to less equipment. More common on the 86's is the LSD and trans cooler. Lots of 87-88 cars lack this.
I had an 86 and loved it. I like the Fuchs wheels, the lightest and strongest out there. I like the absence of airbags, I don't want 15+ yr old explosives in my face. Anti locks would be nice but I never missed them on the street or track.
The 87-88 cars make better street cars because of the anti locks and airbags. The 86 is a great place to start if you intend to mod it, which you will
Any of these cars with a chip will blow your mind compared to the Saab. I would say that if you can do the waterpump on a Saab 900 turbo, you can do about anything to the 951. There are tons of good resources on the web.Good Luck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
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04-22-2003, 09:25 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Brent 89-GT:
<strong>I think you mean exhaust manifold, not the intake. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Exhaust it is. Thanks!
<strong>I think you mean exhaust manifold, not the intake. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Exhaust it is. Thanks!
04-22-2003, 02:14 PM
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Damn, you guys make me want one right now! I have done research about the exhaust manifold and the clutch procedure. That's one thing I am definately NOT looking forward to, especially since my clutch takes one hour in the SAAB! I am stumped on the layout of these cars. At least part of the tranny is in the rear of the car, no? This is what gives it the perfect weight distribution. Also, are the exhaust and intake ports on the same side of the head?! It seems that's the only way the turbo would be under the intake manifold, which it is, right? How strong are the internals of this 2.5 liter? Do people often throw rods and damage pistons when modifying? Sorry about all the questions, I am just really curious as to how this beautifulcar works. Thanks again!
04-22-2003, 03:14 PM
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The exhaust and intake ports are on opposite sides of the head. The turbo is mounted below the intake. If you're not ready to buy yet, by all means DO NOT test drive a 951! You will buy it on the spot. I am still impressed with this car. Everytime I pass someone and get on the boost I am overwhelmed by what a 17 yr old car can do. It is absolutely amazing. My 944 n/a is still sitting in my garage b/c I couldn't wait to sell it before I bought the 951.
The car has the engine in front and a transaxle unit in the rear. Transmission and rear are togehter. There is a long torque tube running from the rear of the engine to the transaxle.
As to whether the pistons will come apart: I've never read anything about that here. I know you can mod the daylights out of these things (damn scary thought with how fast my stock 951 is!) and they keep right on going. I'm sure you'd be able to dial the boost up too high and blow it to kingdom come, but for the most part I've found the 944 series to be quite resilient. Good luck!
I am still impressed with this car. Everytime I pass someone and get on the boost I am overwhelmed by what a 17 yr old car can do. It is absolutely amazing. My 944 n/a is still sitting in my garage b/c I couldn't wait to sell it before I bought the 951.The car has the engine in front and a transaxle unit in the rear. Transmission and rear are togehter. There is a long torque tube running from the rear of the engine to the transaxle.
As to whether the pistons will come apart: I've never read anything about that here. I know you can mod the daylights out of these things (damn scary thought with how fast my stock 951 is!) and they keep right on going. I'm sure you'd be able to dial the boost up too high and blow it to kingdom come, but for the most part I've found the 944 series to be quite resilient. Good luck!
04-22-2003, 04:05 PM
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Just to add what everyone has said,and I agree 100% with whats been said so far:
Buy the best maintained 951 your money can afford. Dont get too caught up in which year it is, or even which color it is if you arent hell bent on owning a specific color. Go check out 5-6 cars at the least and compare them to each other. Find the one that looks and feels as if its been rubbed with a diaper all its life. Perhaps it will cost you 1500-2500 more than another vehicle you like in a better color, but if the color and lack of power locks or whatever canbe lived with, go with the best best kept car. It will save you thousands down the road. Its been my experience that prior owners who pamper their cars have cars that stay together and have a far less chance of falling apart on you. You always roll the dice with a used car, but go with the odds and pick one that doesnt need anything but a loving home if you can manage it.
Now, if you turn a wrench for a living and plan on doing all the work yourself, you may be able to find one in mediocre condition floating around on the cheap and make out quite well.
That said, Id still get the nicest one your money can buy even if its not 100% what you are looking for. I had to make a couple concessions on mine but its grown on me and now I cant imagine driving anyone elses.
Buy the best maintained 951 your money can afford. Dont get too caught up in which year it is, or even which color it is if you arent hell bent on owning a specific color. Go check out 5-6 cars at the least and compare them to each other. Find the one that looks and feels as if its been rubbed with a diaper all its life. Perhaps it will cost you 1500-2500 more than another vehicle you like in a better color, but if the color and lack of power locks or whatever canbe lived with, go with the best best kept car. It will save you thousands down the road. Its been my experience that prior owners who pamper their cars have cars that stay together and have a far less chance of falling apart on you. You always roll the dice with a used car, but go with the odds and pick one that doesnt need anything but a loving home if you can manage it.
Now, if you turn a wrench for a living and plan on doing all the work yourself, you may be able to find one in mediocre condition floating around on the cheap and make out quite well.
That said, Id still get the nicest one your money can buy even if its not 100% what you are looking for. I had to make a couple concessions on mine but its grown on me and now I cant imagine driving anyone elses.
04-22-2003, 04:56 PM
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UDPride's advice is spot on.
Condition is much more important than color/options or even mileage. I have a friend with an '86 944 with 272K miles on the clock and it looks showroom new inside and out. It's even on it's original clutch!
Buy the best car you can even if it is a little over your budget. For example, a belt/waterpump/front seal job done at a shop will run from $1000 to $1500. A clutch job will be at least $500 to do it yourself to $1500 or more at a shop. A new turbo, maybe another couple of grand. Front control arms, $150 to $200 each. As you can see it's real easy to spend $5000 bucks bringing a car up to spec. It's a lot better to spend a couple grand extra on a car that has had all it's maintenence done so you can enjoy scaring the hell out of your friends with it!
Condition is much more important than color/options or even mileage. I have a friend with an '86 944 with 272K miles on the clock and it looks showroom new inside and out. It's even on it's original clutch!
Buy the best car you can even if it is a little over your budget. For example, a belt/waterpump/front seal job done at a shop will run from $1000 to $1500. A clutch job will be at least $500 to do it yourself to $1500 or more at a shop. A new turbo, maybe another couple of grand. Front control arms, $150 to $200 each. As you can see it's real easy to spend $5000 bucks bringing a car up to spec. It's a lot better to spend a couple grand extra on a car that has had all it's maintenence done so you can enjoy scaring the hell out of your friends with it!
04-22-2003, 06:05 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
The early exhaust actually had at least two updates. One was for the headers with the bellows for 1-4, and the other was for the "two piece" crossover, which made it possible to replace the clutch without removing the intake manifold. The "S" turbo had a further update on the crossover pipe/wastegate connection.
I agree with the others. Condition, and up to date service are the most important considerations. Be sure to have a 944 expert look at any potential purchase. It will be money well spent.
Happy hunting!
I agree with the others. Condition, and up to date service are the most important considerations. Be sure to have a 944 expert look at any potential purchase. It will be money well spent.
Happy hunting!
04-22-2003, 07:03 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
When will it blow up and what lets go? This based on my personal experience and that of a few others that have owned them. YMMV
I had a 1986 951. I ran Autothority chips and mass airflow conversion kit. I removed the cat and fitted a test pipe. I added an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to get a little more fuel in there. It ran like a raped ape <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I blew the headgasket running it on the track. I had the head totally redone (86k miles) and used a widefire gasket and o-ring. I blew the gasket again the next summer on the track and there was detonation damage to one piston. I thinmk it was the cycling valve that failed allowing more boost. No wonder those 996 TT's couldn't get away on the track Lesson, the headgasket is the weak link.
If I were to do it again I think I would run Guru chips and mass flow. His chips have a better fuel/ignition curve. That would likely allow the HG to live much longer.
I think that running mods on a street driven turbo is a good idea, not to mention FUN. I do not think that running a chipped turbo on the track is a good idea unless you have money to burn.
I had a 1986 951. I ran Autothority chips and mass airflow conversion kit. I removed the cat and fitted a test pipe. I added an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to get a little more fuel in there. It ran like a raped ape <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I blew the headgasket running it on the track. I had the head totally redone (86k miles) and used a widefire gasket and o-ring. I blew the gasket again the next summer on the track and there was detonation damage to one piston. I thinmk it was the cycling valve that failed allowing more boost. No wonder those 996 TT's couldn't get away on the track
Lesson, the headgasket is the weak link.If I were to do it again I think I would run Guru chips and mass flow. His chips have a better fuel/ignition curve. That would likely allow the HG to live much longer.
I think that running mods on a street driven turbo is a good idea, not to mention FUN. I do not think that running a chipped turbo on the track is a good idea unless you have money to burn.