wjk_glynn

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 944pete:
<strong>I'd take a GT3 over a GT2. The GT3 doesn't have all the electronic b/s</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Neither does the GT2.

For me the ultimate test of a sports car is the 14-mile Nordschleife at the Nurburgring.

Known as the "Green Hell", this course tests the mettle of any car/driver that goes out there. Its the main proving ground for the European performance car manufactures and a lap-time from there has become the yard-stick by which cars are measured (in terms of performance). You need it all to get a good laptime there - HP, handling, brakes, visibilty, etc.

Here are some example times (m.ss):

Fastest Tuner-Modified Porsche: 7.32 Gemballa GTR Biturbo 600

Fastest stock production car: 7.44 2002 Pagani Zonda S <a href="http://www.paganizonda.com/" target="_blank">http://www.paganizonda.com/</a>

Fastest stock Porsche: 7.46 2001 Porsche 996 GT2

Stock Porsche 996TT: 7.56

The "old" 996 GT3: 7.56 Porsche 996 GT3 (same as stock 996TT)

The "new" 996 GT3 hasn't done an official lap time yet but folks are expecting it to come in at ~7.50

In addition:

Fastest Stock Lamborghini: 7.50 2002 Lamborghini Murciélago

Fastest Stock Ferrari: 8.05 2002 Ferrari 575M

You can find a list of times summarized here:

<a href="http://www.bmwdeler.no/nordschleife.html" target="_blank">http://www.bmwdeler.no/nordschleife.html</a>

The offical website lap records (in English) is here:

<a href="http://www.nurburgring.de/?rubrik=rekorde&lang=eng" target="_blank">http://www.nurburgring.de/?rubrik=rekorde&lang=eng</a>

Karl.

iloveporsches

If I could have any new Porsche, it'd be a GT3. Must just be an NA kinda guy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

wjk_glynn

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 944pete:
<strong>$8500 for an excellent car seems low to me. Whaddya think?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I did a quick informal survey of 1986 951 prices on Autotrader in the US and I found the following:

Highest priced (it had 343 RWHP) - $18.5K

10x cars more than $12K

7x cars at $10K-$12K

12x cars at $8K-$10K

13x cars at $6K-$8K

4x cars less than $6K

So if the bulk of the nice cars are in the $8K-$10K range (that's an assumption), then knocking off 5%-10% for haggling gets you into the $9K range so Bruce's values don't seem that far wrong. Someone might ask $12K for their car but they might not be able to move it at that price.

I wonder would there be anyway to set up a sales report page on Rennlist (I'm sure someone has suggested this already) and how would we keep it honest.

I purchased my S2 for $12K back in 2001 in the following condition:

<a href="http://www.weissach.net/WP0AB294XMN410197-History.html#PPI_2001-04-25" target="_blank">http://www.weissach.net/WP0AB294XMN410197-History.html#PPI_2001-04-25</a>

In hindsight, I probably overpaid by $1,500.

Karl.

UDPride

I had a similar experience when I bought my 951 3-4 years. I wrote in to Excellence and told them what I paid for it, condition, extras, etc and they actually published it and he told me the same thing - I paid too much for it. Id have to dig up the magazine but I think he quoted about the same price for my 86 951.

Keep in mind compared to the one above for $10,500, I bought mine in 1999 for $9600 and it had 61K miles on it, Fuchs, chipped, graphite metallic which pretty much doesnt exist, interior 9.0, mechanics 9.0, exterior 9.0 and he pretty much gave me the ol' "you got robbed" response. Let me dig the magazine up and I'll type it word for word. I thought I got a pretty freakin good deal. And that was FOUR YEARS AGO.

I used to get Excellence but after that issue they pissed me off and I got tired of never reading about 944s anyway. They should call that thing the 911 magazine. Panorama isnt much better. Maybe worse.

Ag951

I got my '87 951 in good condition with 115k miles for $7800. The CPI value (which my bank uses for loans on old cars) was $9250 for fair condition, but edmunds.com said only $6083.
I think it was worth the money.

LP

Geeze I seem to always get my issue a few days late <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> . Oh well something to look foward to . I like the resto articles too!

PL 86'951

Sami951

Ahh, GT3.. I wouldn't want one, it's way too much for me to handle. Even more so for the GT2 of course.

A friend has a GT3 and I get to see the car quite often. I swear there's some magic aura surrounding it... your heart stops for a moment when you approach ...

<img src="http://www.porsche-club.fi/gallery/2003slalom1/IM000462.jpg" alt=" - " />

<img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

PCinDC

Sami you're killing us Americans with this "My friend has a GT3" sutff!

We'll just have to be patient - something we aren't good at!

I can't wait to see one of those at the local PCA meetings!

Sami951

Ah, sorry

Seriously, I think it's very cool that this guy takes part in all our club activities and drives that car *way fast* on the track. Very different from most "expensive Porsche" owners (996 etc guys around here) who are never seen anywhere.

rpm's S2

To try and join this rather disjointed discussion:

Bruce Anderson's price evaluations are fairly close I think - we just don't want to face reality when it comes to the value of these cars we love so much

GT3s are cool

Add to Nordschlieffe record book:

Fastest Lap by a rookie in a 1988 Ford Mustang GT - Ralph Moore: something close to 10-12 minutes, or so. Best DM 10- I ever spent!

wjk_glynn

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by UDPride:
<strong>I used to get Excellence but after that issue they pissed me off and I got tired of never reading about 944s anyway. They should call that thing the 911 magazine.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">This is a complaint I hear about Excellence all the time and often folks will praise the British mag "911 & Porsche World" for the opposite reason.

Note that you can find a list of Porsche mags at:

<a href="http://www.weissach.net/PorscheMagazines.html" target="_blank">http://www.weissach.net/PorscheMagazines.html</a>

So anyway. Last year I went out and spent several $100's on buying every back issue of Excellence and "911 & Porsche World" with 944 articles and I found something very interesting. Over the years, Excellence has published ~3 times more in depth, detailed, technical articles on the 944 when compared to 911 & Porsche World.

I compiled a list of Excellence articles here:

<a href="http://www.weissach.net/924-944-968_ArticlesExcellence.html" target="_blank">http://www.weissach.net/924-944-968_ArticlesExcellence.html</a>

Just to give you an idea of what I consider to be a typical article, here's a scanned one from 1994:

<a href="http://www.924.org/techsection/SuspensionPreparation.htm" target="_blank">http://www.924.org/techsection/SuspensionPreparation.htm</a>

In the last 10 issues, they've had 7 good articles on the 944/968 at follows:

04/2003, No. 118-P131, "Six From Four" - 600 HP 2.6L Turbo Charged 968 motor in a 951 chassis
11/2002, No. 115-P143, "Short Stop" - Installing 928S4 brakes on a 944S
09/2002, No. 113-P147, "Track Setup Tips" - Focused on setting up a 944 Turbo S
08/2002, No. 112-P147, "How To Buy A Used Porsche" - General article with a specific example of buying a used 968 Tiptronic
06/2002, No. 111-P137, "The Low Down" - Installing Koni sports suspension on a 944S
05/2002, No. 110-P139, "944 Engine Rebuild & Installation"
04/2002, No. 109-P133, "944 Engine Removal & Inspection"

For a general Porsche magazine, that's pretty damn good.

Karl.

pete944

I think 911 & Porsche World shows the 924/944 series a little more respect. Excellence seems to treat the 944 like the weird uncle that nobody talks about. I do agree, however, that Excellence has had pretty good 944 coverage lately. I do like the series of articles on Gerry Burgers white '89 944NA.

OriginalSterm

If someone could post pics for me, I can show you what I got for $8,000...

John D.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by originalsterm:
<strong>If someone could post pics for me, I can show you want I got for $8,000...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Send them to admin@rennlist.com - I think I can probably get them posted for you

OriginalSterm

Here they come John.

1987 951, 91k, Huntley chips, cat-bypass, lbe, konis in back, 17" rims, downpipe, lambda gauge, runs fantastic! Incredibly clean car.