951 Failed Emission Test
07-19-2002, 12:56 AM
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951 Failed Emission Test
My 1987 951 with 318,000Km (197,600Miles) failed the Ontario <a href="http://www.driveclean.com" target="_blank">Drive Clean</a> emission test. The detailed results are posted below - I'm 58% over the limit on HC ppm, and 49% over the limit on NOx ppm.
To prepare for the test, about a month before, I had used a fuel system treatment in one tank of gas. Then filled up with Sunoco Ultra 94 (hi-octane, 10% Ethanol) gas and ran through that tank. Filled up with Sunoco Ultra 94 again, changed the spark plugs 3 days prior to the test, did a 70Km highway drive just before the test to warm up the cat, the testing place was right off the highway, so I pulled in, parked it, shut the engine off and within 10 minutes, they started the test - ideal conditions I thought.
ASM 2525 test:
HC ppm - Limit 127, Reading 201, Result FAIL.
CO % - Limit 0.71, Reading 0.64, Result PASS.
NO ppm - Limit 1415, Reading 2109, Result FAIL.
RPM - 1686, Result VALID
Dilution - 14.6, Result VALID
Curb Idle test:
HC ppm - Limit 300, Reading 154, Result PASS.
CO % - Limit 1.50, Reading 1.20, Result PASS.
NO ppm - Limit N/A, Reading N/A, Result N/A.
RPM - 1364, Result INVALID
Dilution - 15.1, Result VALID
Catalytic Converter: PRESENT
Fuel Evaporative System: PRESENT
Thermostatic Air Cleaner System: PRESENT
Fuel Filler Integrity Check: PASS
Gas Cap Pressure Test: PASS
Two years ago(July 2000), I had an emission test done at the same place and it passed. These were the results then:
ASM 2525 test:
HC ppm - Limit 127, Reading 93, Result PASS.
CO % - Limit 0.71, Reading 0.56, Result PASS.
NO ppm - Limit 1415, Reading 1361, Result PASS.
RPM - 2445, Result VALID
Dilution - 15.1, Result VALID
There was no Curb Idle test done at that time.
Notice that the RPM was higher two years ago on the ASM 2525 test: 2445rpm vs 1686rpm, but both were tagged as VALID.
Not sure what to try next. The car seems to run ok, develops at least 1.75 bar on the boost gauge and accelerates smoothly. The only problem is sometimes the idle will fluctuate between 1000 and 1500rpm, but most of the time it idles steady at 950rpm.
Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance,
Jim
1987 951
To prepare for the test, about a month before, I had used a fuel system treatment in one tank of gas. Then filled up with Sunoco Ultra 94 (hi-octane, 10% Ethanol) gas and ran through that tank. Filled up with Sunoco Ultra 94 again, changed the spark plugs 3 days prior to the test, did a 70Km highway drive just before the test to warm up the cat, the testing place was right off the highway, so I pulled in, parked it, shut the engine off and within 10 minutes, they started the test - ideal conditions I thought.
ASM 2525 test:
HC ppm - Limit 127, Reading 201, Result FAIL.
CO % - Limit 0.71, Reading 0.64, Result PASS.
NO ppm - Limit 1415, Reading 2109, Result FAIL.
RPM - 1686, Result VALID
Dilution - 14.6, Result VALID
Curb Idle test:
HC ppm - Limit 300, Reading 154, Result PASS.
CO % - Limit 1.50, Reading 1.20, Result PASS.
NO ppm - Limit N/A, Reading N/A, Result N/A.
RPM - 1364, Result INVALID
Dilution - 15.1, Result VALID
Catalytic Converter: PRESENT
Fuel Evaporative System: PRESENT
Thermostatic Air Cleaner System: PRESENT
Fuel Filler Integrity Check: PASS
Gas Cap Pressure Test: PASS
Two years ago(July 2000), I had an emission test done at the same place and it passed. These were the results then:
ASM 2525 test:
HC ppm - Limit 127, Reading 93, Result PASS.
CO % - Limit 0.71, Reading 0.56, Result PASS.
NO ppm - Limit 1415, Reading 1361, Result PASS.
RPM - 2445, Result VALID
Dilution - 15.1, Result VALID
There was no Curb Idle test done at that time.
Notice that the RPM was higher two years ago on the ASM 2525 test: 2445rpm vs 1686rpm, but both were tagged as VALID.
Not sure what to try next. The car seems to run ok, develops at least 1.75 bar on the boost gauge and accelerates smoothly. The only problem is sometimes the idle will fluctuate between 1000 and 1500rpm, but most of the time it idles steady at 950rpm.
Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance,
Jim
1987 951
07-19-2002, 02:36 AM
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Try a new O2 sensor. Yours has seen better days.
FR Wilk
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<a href="http://early944.tripod.com" target="_blank">http://early944.tripod.com</a>
8Þ
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07-19-2002, 09:45 AM
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[quote]Try a new O2 sensor...<hr></blockquote>
The O2 sensor was last replaced in Jan 1999 at 234,000Km - 3.5years or 84,000Km ago - it didn't seem that long, but I guess it's due for replacement.
Thanks FR
[quote]Lowering the FPR...<hr></blockquote>
Brian, what is FPR? Is that Fuel Pressure? If so, how do you lower it?
By the way, the car has stock chips.
Regards,
Jim
The O2 sensor was last replaced in Jan 1999 at 234,000Km - 3.5years or 84,000Km ago - it didn't seem that long, but I guess it's due for replacement.
Thanks FR
[quote]Lowering the FPR...<hr></blockquote>
Brian, what is FPR? Is that Fuel Pressure? If so, how do you lower it?
By the way, the car has stock chips.
Regards,
Jim
07-19-2002, 10:19 AM
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Hey Jim,
I just had mine done in December and my numbers were high this time too, I passed with 1 number to spare. I have 5 cars that need testing and I have actually found I get better results on a cooler engine. I park at work for the morning and take the car 2 km to the shop and they do the test. I have actually had zeros on some of my other cars. The other thing that I make sure, did not see if you did this, is put a new air filter in.
Good luck,
-R.B.
I just had mine done in December and my numbers were high this time too, I passed with 1 number to spare. I have 5 cars that need testing and I have actually found I get better results on a cooler engine. I park at work for the morning and take the car 2 km to the shop and they do the test. I have actually had zeros on some of my other cars. The other thing that I make sure, did not see if you did this, is put a new air filter in.
Good luck,
-R.B.
07-19-2002, 02:54 PM
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Hey R.B.,
You passed by 1 point! I wish I had such luck
I'm debating on getting a re-test or getting it diagnosed first. What makes the decision difficult is the Repair Cost Limit of $450 and the conditional pass.
If I do any of the work myself, like replacing the O2 sensor, the cost won't qualify for the Repair Cost Limit. Only work done by accredited repair shops qualifies.
My concern is that my HC ppm and NO ppm readings are so high that even if I replace the O2 sensor, air filter, or other easily replacable items, it still won't pass the re-test.
On the other hand, if I get it diagnosed at an accredited repair shop and they find any one item that exceeds the $450 repair limit, like the cat for example, I don't have to have it repaired and I qualify for a conditional pass that's good for 2 years! I can then repair it myself on my own time.
Regards,
Jim
You passed by 1 point! I wish I had such luck
I'm debating on getting a re-test or getting it diagnosed first. What makes the decision difficult is the Repair Cost Limit of $450 and the conditional pass.
If I do any of the work myself, like replacing the O2 sensor, the cost won't qualify for the Repair Cost Limit. Only work done by accredited repair shops qualifies.
My concern is that my HC ppm and NO ppm readings are so high that even if I replace the O2 sensor, air filter, or other easily replacable items, it still won't pass the re-test.
On the other hand, if I get it diagnosed at an accredited repair shop and they find any one item that exceeds the $450 repair limit, like the cat for example, I don't have to have it repaired and I qualify for a conditional pass that's good for 2 years! I can then repair it myself on my own time.
Regards,
Jim
07-19-2002, 03:08 PM
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3 1/2 years for an O2 sensor is on the low side, but not out of the question. Another thing that might be contributing would be a cat that has seen better days.
You can get an O2 sensor pretty cheap. Call up skip for the more generic 3 prong variety.
I got my Cat replaced this year, Less than $200 US all told but it was with other work so I don't recall exactly.
As for the $450 repair limit, you might want to check into that. Is it the WORK that can't be counted if you do it yourself or the WORK and PARTS? In Georgia I can't count repair work I do myself, as in I can't say I charged myself $60/hour and spent 8 hours replacing the O2 sensor. But I can use the money I spent towards the O2 sensor and Cat toward the repair cost required for a waiver.
Ultimately you can still do more for less money if you do the work yourself. That's more repairs for the car and possibly a cleaner running car.
You can get an O2 sensor pretty cheap. Call up skip for the more generic 3 prong variety.
I got my Cat replaced this year, Less than $200 US all told but it was with other work so I don't recall exactly.
As for the $450 repair limit, you might want to check into that. Is it the WORK that can't be counted if you do it yourself or the WORK and PARTS? In Georgia I can't count repair work I do myself, as in I can't say I charged myself $60/hour and spent 8 hours replacing the O2 sensor. But I can use the money I spent towards the O2 sensor and Cat toward the repair cost required for a waiver.
Ultimately you can still do more for less money if you do the work yourself. That's more repairs for the car and possibly a cleaner running car.
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07-19-2002, 03:14 PM
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Don't know if this will help at all. but I have to agree to the cooler engine thought.. I had a Toyota PU. with virtually no compression.. but passed with flying colors.. they test guy said that toyotas never fail cause they have a waterjacket on the intake manifold.. thus cooler and thicker air into the chamber. better burn.. less hydrocarbons. which I believe is unburnt fuel??? I may be wrong on that.. been like 8 years ago.. but I think that is what he said..
07-19-2002, 03:40 PM
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Jim,
For $30 you can try another garage. Maybe you pass maybe you don't. If you don't want to risk the extra money on parts. At least if the result comes back exactly the same, you know you have to fix something. Try a cooler engine and another shop. If you go to the same shop I think a retest is only $15. Who knows, maybe the dynos aren't all calibrated the same. It is government controlled after all
-R.B.
For $30 you can try another garage. Maybe you pass maybe you don't. If you don't want to risk the extra money on parts. At least if the result comes back exactly the same, you know you have to fix something. Try a cooler engine and another shop. If you go to the same shop I think a retest is only $15. Who knows, maybe the dynos aren't all calibrated the same. It is government controlled after all
-R.B.
07-19-2002, 04:16 PM
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What kind of shop did the testing? Did they expect to get any repair work out of you? I think there are a lot of scams related to the Drive Clean program. Should be called Driver Clean!!!
A buddy of mine who owns his own repair shop says always take your car to someone who doesn't work on it. They won't have a conflict of interest. The government established this mandatory program but did nothing to prevent drivers from being fleeced.
The car repair business already has enough sleasy operators, now the government has handed them our Visa cards.
I know of which I speak.
A buddy of mine who owns his own repair shop says always take your car to someone who doesn't work on it. They won't have a conflict of interest. The government established this mandatory program but did nothing to prevent drivers from being fleeced.
The car repair business already has enough sleasy operators, now the government has handed them our Visa cards.
I know of which I speak.
07-19-2002, 08:21 PM
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Both our '84 944 and '85 Volvo had these types of readings and a new Oxygen sensor fixed them both. Much to the surprise of my smog guy. He thought it was worse, like a bad AFM or other high dollar FI piece.
Jim Cooper
'84 944
Der Cupmeister
Jim Cooper
'84 944
Der Cupmeister
07-19-2002, 09:20 PM
#12
FPR Fuel Preasure regulator (FPR). You can get a AFPR or Adjustable Fuel Regulator to dial in fuel preasure to make adjustment on the Air/Fuel ratio. Most of the time it is done to increase fuel after performance modifications but it can also decrease fuel to lower emissions.
Your responce tells me you didn't have a AFPR on your car, they cost around $150 so maybe testing again is in order...maybe with a new O2 sensor.Pargon has them for $61.
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/FPR.jpg" target="_blank">AFPR</a>
Your responce tells me you didn't have a AFPR on your car, they cost around $150 so maybe testing again is in order...maybe with a new O2 sensor.Pargon has them for $61.
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/FPR.jpg" target="_blank">AFPR</a>
07-20-2002, 12:49 AM
#13
Drifting
[quote]Originally posted by jpapanas:
<strong>ASM 2525 test:
HC ppm - Limit 127, Reading 201, Result FAIL.
CO % - Limit 0.71, Reading 0.64, Result PASS.
NO ppm - Limit 1415, Reading 2109, Result FAIL.
RPM - 1686, Result VALID
Dilution - 14.6, Result VALID
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Jim, last year I had exactly the same readings, YOUR O2 SENSOR is SHOT ! Replace the sensor then take it for another test. I replaced mine with a Bosch univeral #13913, spliced on to the existing wire.
<strong>ASM 2525 test:
HC ppm - Limit 127, Reading 201, Result FAIL.
CO % - Limit 0.71, Reading 0.64, Result PASS.
NO ppm - Limit 1415, Reading 2109, Result FAIL.
RPM - 1686, Result VALID
Dilution - 14.6, Result VALID
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Jim, last year I had exactly the same readings, YOUR O2 SENSOR is SHOT ! Replace the sensor then take it for another test. I replaced mine with a Bosch univeral #13913, spliced on to the existing wire.
07-20-2002, 10:34 AM
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Thanks for all the responses so far - some great advice!
[quote] Originally posted by Mark Lue:
... Replace the sensor then take it for another test. I replaced mine with a Bosch univeral #13913, spliced on to the existing wire <hr></blockquote>
Where did you get the universal sensor? Paragon has a new kit: "Bosch 15725 Universal 3-wire Oxygen Sensor Kit - with correct universal adaptor for convenient wiring." - only $55US. Has anyone tried this? What is the adaptor like?
[quote] Originally posted by Cupmeister:
Both our '84 944 and '85 Volvo had these types of readings and a new Oxygen sensor fixed them both. Much to the surprise of my smog guy.... <hr></blockquote>
It's good to know that an O2 sensor may be able to fix even high readings like these.
I'll definitely take the next test with a cooler engine. Yes, you're right, a retest at the same shop is only $15, but it may be better to go somewhere else.
[quote] Originally posted by Jonathan Martini:
3 1/2 years for an O2 sensor is on the low side, but not out of the question...<hr></blockquote>
How do I test the current sensor to see if it's cycling properly?
Regards,
Jim
[quote] Originally posted by Mark Lue:
... Replace the sensor then take it for another test. I replaced mine with a Bosch univeral #13913, spliced on to the existing wire <hr></blockquote>
Where did you get the universal sensor? Paragon has a new kit: "Bosch 15725 Universal 3-wire Oxygen Sensor Kit - with correct universal adaptor for convenient wiring." - only $55US. Has anyone tried this? What is the adaptor like?
[quote] Originally posted by Cupmeister:
Both our '84 944 and '85 Volvo had these types of readings and a new Oxygen sensor fixed them both. Much to the surprise of my smog guy.... <hr></blockquote>
It's good to know that an O2 sensor may be able to fix even high readings like these.
Originally posted by Peckster:
What kind of shop did the testing? Did they expect to get any repair work out of you?...
<hr></blockquote>
It was a test and repair shop. If they wanted to fail a car, I'm sure they could do it quite easily. I don't feel this shop did anything like though.
[QUOTE} Originally posted by R.B.:
Try a cooler engine and another shop. If you go to the same shop I think a retest is only $15. Who knows, maybe the dynos aren't all calibrated the same.
What kind of shop did the testing? Did they expect to get any repair work out of you?...
<hr></blockquote>
It was a test and repair shop. If they wanted to fail a car, I'm sure they could do it quite easily. I don't feel this shop did anything like though.
[QUOTE} Originally posted by R.B.:
Try a cooler engine and another shop. If you go to the same shop I think a retest is only $15. Who knows, maybe the dynos aren't all calibrated the same.
[quote] Originally posted by Jonathan Martini:
3 1/2 years for an O2 sensor is on the low side, but not out of the question...<hr></blockquote>
How do I test the current sensor to see if it's cycling properly?
Regards,
Jim
07-20-2002, 11:09 AM
#15
Drifting
[quote]Originally posted by jpapanas:
<strong>Paragon has a new kit: "Bosch 15725 Universal 3-wire Oxygen Sensor Kit - with correct universal adaptor for convenient wiring." - only $55US. Has anyone tried this? What is the adaptor like?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Give Skip a call at Parogon, if that kit was around when I was buying my sensor that's what I would buy. According to one of the Rennlist members that work with the O2 sensors for Bosch, the Bosch #15725 is the direct replacement for the original Porsche O2 sensor and with the correct adapter for the oxegen replenishment, that would be the hot ticket.
<strong>Paragon has a new kit: "Bosch 15725 Universal 3-wire Oxygen Sensor Kit - with correct universal adaptor for convenient wiring." - only $55US. Has anyone tried this? What is the adaptor like?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Give Skip a call at Parogon, if that kit was around when I was buying my sensor that's what I would buy. According to one of the Rennlist members that work with the O2 sensors for Bosch, the Bosch #15725 is the direct replacement for the original Porsche O2 sensor and with the correct adapter for the oxegen replenishment, that would be the hot ticket.