BRB_85.5_NA

I appreciate working on the vehicle that you know, learning it inside and out so if anything goes wrong you know what's up. I also appreciate simply the pleasure and satisfaction of the basic, physical experience of working on cars, torn knuckles, bruises, all. So I laud you guys for that. I guess I just look at my n/a that I paid $2900 for, a daily driver that I've put 15k miles on since I bought it in January, and just see it as a money pit for performance. To my mind, if I just do the needed maintenance and some minor, cheap upgrades to the really fun stuff (suspension and brakes), I can have an enjoyable ride for the next couple years while I learn to drive a sports car (1st one) and meanwhile save up for the real performance built vehicle--a 951 or 968. I mean mine's stock, so I would be looking at Koni's, wheels, tires, sway bars, brakes, etc. $$$$$$$$$$ No vale.

Ok I'm taking up more server space than I deserve. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> Peace out. Enjoy your rides gentlemen.

TaboII

BRB944


I do not want to start a flame war here so I will be general. I have an 87 N/A that I have put more work time and money into than I ever thought I would put into a single vehicle. These cars seem to grow on you and beg to be treated right. I personally would like to complete my project N/A with the SFR stage three SC kit and take pictures of the Turbo guys face just to remind them from time to time that there are other possibilities out there and to keep an open mind. I am currently working on suspension upgrades that will put me in the same league as the 951 at the very least. Once this is complete there are several other possibilities I am looking into from an upgrade point of view. You say it is cheaper to just get a 951 than to go through all this trouble with the N/A. I personally know some one on this board who has spent more than 40K on there 951 and now no longer has the car. Would this mean he should have just spent the money on a 968 or 996 and forgone all the trouble. I know he wouldn’t have had it any other way.

So to all you N/A owners out there. Don’t draw lines in the sand when you are talking with a turbo owner or some one with an obviously faster or better car than yours at that moment. We all should be better than that. I am proud of the hard work I have put into my N/A and yes it is a sleeper. One day BRB944 you may run across one of these sleepers and have your gear box handed to you in a card board box! Is worth the time and effort “I personally think it is” but this is up to each individual doing the work. Oh and the insurance rates are cheaper as long as they don’t know what you have done to upgrade the car all is good.

It is possible to get huge HP out of the N/A lets not forget we are talking about the same car only diffs are the motor suspension and tyranny. All of which is completely interchangeable from car to car. I am sorry about this rant to all the take time to read It. I just have had enough of people telling me that I should have bought a turbo rather than the N/A because of the HP diff vs. the money, if I wanted a turbo I would find and buy one. I assure you I will here some day soon but only when I have decided to go do so and not because some one tell me it would be the better choice. Well someone once said nothing worth having was ever easy, in fact the harder it is to achieve the goal the greater the reward “IMHO” sp My hat is off to all you N/A owners keep up the good work and lets show every one we are as proud of are cars as any one can be.

Sorry for the tangent guys. I just get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

ram_one

Amen brother!

Bones944

Seeing as how I own one of each, I agree with several points here; yes it is good to baby the car you own, and if it's your money, if you want to spend it, spend it like you want. If that means spending several $K getting an N/A to perform, go for it! However, when $500 in chips in a 951 will accomplish the same thing that several thousand will in an N/A, then logic says go the 951 route. I know my n/a will never perform like the 951, but the car is doing what it was designed to do. If horsepower and torque were the only answer, I'd have a '72 Chevelle with a built 454, and for a lot less $$$ too! Enjoy your N/A, spend what you want to on it if it makes you happy and proud, and if you want a 951.....go get one! Lots around to be had.......

Manning

Good call TaboII.

If I want to dump money into an NA, then let me do it and be happy with it. Part of the fun in owning one of these cars for me is monkeying around with it. That is part of the challenge as far as I am concerned.

BRB_85.5_NA

Hey ram_one: how do you like your Billies? Where did you get them and how much $$$? I'm looking at suspension options right now--why didn't you go with Koni's?

Back to the flame war. For example:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1848427386" target="_blank">eBay 951</a>

[quote] I personally know some one on this board who has spent more than 40K on there 951 and now no longer has the car. Would this mean he should have just spent the money on a 968 or 996 and forgone all the trouble. <hr></blockquote>

Yep. But not the 996 (not enough $$ and there's just something about getting a 4 cylinder to haul ***--as you all can appreciate). Actually, it seems that until SFR perfects their 968 supercharger, you can get more HP out of the 951 or especially a 952 with most of the same suspension and brake upgrades as the 968.

You're also talking to a teacher here who has little time to devote to his cars most of the year.

[quote] One day BRB944 you may run across one of these sleepers and have your gear box handed to you in a card board box! <hr></blockquote>

That's exactly where my gearbox would be if I put a supercharger in my n/a without paying $$$ for a 951 tranny, as you can attest with yours.

But, more importantly, your statement begs an interesting political question: why do we equate being right with power?

[quote] My hat is off to all you N/A owners keep up the good work and lets show every one we are as proud of are cars as any one can be. <hr></blockquote>

Amen to that. Everybody is proud of their P-cars, but there are different ways to go about it, as you all would agree. I personally think the glory of these cars is in the fact that they have so little power: you have to be such a good driver to make the most of the handling etc. because you can't make up for it in horsepower. No taking the corners sloppy, no over braking, gotta open the throttle at just the right time. It's the opposite of American muscle cars, which have their own appeal. The 944 is a precision instrument and we need to develop our skills in using it. The endless need to upgrade is a slippery slope, financially and time-wise: wouldn't you rather spend the time driving? I would.

Now I'm really taking up more server space than I deserve. This is my first flame war, but I'm glad we're all being civil.

DangerIsland

I've been thinking about serious upgrades to my 944 (NA) as well, and I think I justify it to myself in a few ways:

1) I already have the car. I like this car, I like the color/wheels/etc. and besides, I have some blood "invested" on a few parts. It's mine already.

2) reliability. turbos are more work to maintain and upgrade. no way you can argue with that. There are just plain more parts. I think a redone NA car is going to be more reliable than a turbo. Is an NA car more reliable per HP? I doubt it, turbos do just plain put out better numbers.

3) complexity. I understand a lot of the systems of my NA car, and a good understanding goes a long ways in doing upgrades/repairs. This is somewhat related to #2

4) weight. while losing some of my gut might be the best weight upgrade I could do (hehe) Turbos are heavier cars. If I was going to be upgrading my 944 I would look at cutting out a lot of weight, and the NA car is starting lighter.

If I was going to take over $10k right now and build a car I'd like to have, it wouldn't be a decent turbo with a bunch of upgrades, it would be a 924S with a totally rebuilt 2.8 or 3.0l NA engine from Anderson, putting down less than a stock turbo does to the rear wheels, but I don't think I would mind, it would be way too much fun

Happy porscheing to everyone, respect all the way around!

John Anderson

DangerIsland,

Shaun just posted a couple of pictures of our race engine in the build process, I think thye thread is anderson motoworks race motor or somthing similar. We will be posting more soon. I think it would be kinda nice to shoot the entire build, and post it here. In the shots posted so far, the crank has just been installed, and held in place with a few bolts until the new hardware comes in. We should have the motor installed and the car running this week.

Take Care!

John Anderson

By the way, the motor will lay down more to the rear wheels than a stock turbo, and just about as much as a chipped turbo. We plan to try a 16 valve head soon, this should really bump it up, but for now, we will probably install a worked 8 valve.

Doug944s2

Has anyone ever stuffed a 968 motor into a 924? That's my idea of a fun sleeper, with 236 dead-reliable, no-lag bhp and, what, 300-400 lb. less weight than a 968? Of course, brake upgrades and as much wheel/tire as the fenders would accept would be part of the master plan. [insert pinkie in side of mouth and unleash the nefarious Dr. Evil laugh]

<img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

BRB_85.5_NA

Hey Doug--why not stuff your S2 motor in one? Just a little fun from a former New Porsche Beach resident (115 24th, around the corner from the Newport Pier).

Anyhow, what I really think y'all should do is put your time and money into a 951 motor. Check out the dynos on <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/951_racerx/" target="_blank">Danno's webpage</a>, including an Anderson 2.8l overbore that makes 420 hp and 515 ft/lbs of torque! Oh my f!ck, out of a 4 cylinder? Stuff one of those in your n/a and I would bow down in humility to the sleeper god.

BRB

nib5

[quote] Oh and the insurance rates are cheaper as long as they don’t know what you have done to upgrade the car all is good. <hr></blockquote>

That is one absolutely sure fire, copper bottomed way of finding yourself without cover in the event of a serious accident. Sorry to be an old woman about it, but your grandchildren could still be paying for a mistake you might make.

I love Tifo's car though, it's a work of art. If I had the time and money to do it, that would be my ideal.

TaboII

BRB944

Just as a side note, my intention was not to start any kind of flame war as it seems we did avoid. I suppose, as many seem to think, my opinion about modding up an N/A VS a Turbo is a bit jaded, but I ask you to consider this. Others have stated similar experiences as I have, and that is I have gained an extreme knowledge base having started to do all the work on my car myself as well as assisting my friends in working on there’s. My tool shop has grown considerably with my habits and I now am only a few steps from purchasing tools to work on my own tranny “Which has been a pain in my @$$ sense the purchase of my car”. Bottom line is something that not many women will ever understand “with the exception of Turbys GF and a rare few others” is that I really enjoy working on my car and find a very real sense of satisfaction from getting a job done right or even making it a bit better than from where it started. I believe that any one who works on there own cars Turbo or N/A alike gets this feeling. SO I guess it should be said, that no matter what P-car you own making is faster, stronger or better is something that we all take pride in.

I just have been told one to many times that I should have bought a turbo, that’s all. As I said before, I will own a turbo “Preferably a Turbo S and have as much enthusiasm modding it as I have about modding my N/A. As my N/A becomes more stable, that is to say more complete and reliable I am going to race it at local events and auto X. Not to show off or anything like that, rather skimpily for the pure delight of learning how to drive a precision machine that is well maintained and has its performance pushed to its limit and… drive it well. There is nothing like making that perfect run or hitting the apex correctly after breaking hard into a turn and pushing that throttle to the floor as you exit. I don’t know if you have ever raced auto X or have been to a DE but I would highly recommend it.

So I will end this with this final gesture. No flame war just good fun .

P.S. Just because you are a Teacher “Which I respect very much, keep up the good work” doesn’t mean you cant work on you own car. Try it, you may find out why some of us N/A guys like to strive for that extra horse in the dark corners of our engine compartments. Get your hands dirty and make that engine purr like it was intended to in the first place and you will understand where I am coming from.

Good luck
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Steve in New Hampshire

Like Keith I too want to keep my little NA...and initially give it just a bit more horsepower. I've done the K&N, will do the new throttle cam soon and am considering 'chipping' it. I've heard that many of the chips do very little. Has anyone gotten good results on the NA with a particular chip upgrade?

Now, long term, I'd love to get Mr. Anderson to do some of his magic...I think my '87 NA would be a wonderful little road car with a boost to 180 to 200 hp. John, what does your 2.8 liter NA motor put out??

Can the NA transmission handle that modest boost in horsepower?

BRB_85.5_NA

Hey Tabo--

I'm with you 100% regarding working on cars. With the exception of a timing belt tension and tire mounting and balancing, I've done everything on the 944 so far. Just did the ball joints, brake lines, flush, wheel bearings, etc. this summer. I also do all the work on my 87 Landcruiser, including a carb rebuild, new leaf springs all around, steering gear, valve adjustments, brakes, wheel bearings, yada yada (going from that beast to working on a 944 was culture shock). I actually work on cars for a number of reasons, including I don't want to pay somebody with a high school education more than I get paid, and because I find it intellectually stimulating and I enjoy being completely independent. I've never broken down in a car I've worked on, which is more I can say for ones that mechanics have gotten to (there's an old Dead Kennedys song I grew up on: "Trust Your Mechanic"). So I love working on cars too, for the same reasons you do, but I just don't have the same time or money to throw at them.

Anyhow, I guess it just comes down to a difference of opinion as to where the money and time should go first. I, for example, am looking at doing slotted rotors, front and rear 951 sway bars (you or ram_one gave me the idea--thanks), Koni Yellows, and 250# springs. After this, I'm going with the MSD Blaster 2/6A ignition, and then I'll be done (I think). I do laud your expertise and commitment to the car and the fact that you use it for what it was built (or, rather, what it could become with a lot of blood, sweat, and tear$). I might get into that, but I'm not into competing. Instead, I just love getting out on the road, seeing those lane dividing stripes fly by, and testing my skill by taking some turns a little faster than the posted speed limit (we have some great roads up here in NorCali).



<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> Tabo. Keep us posted on your progress.

<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> B