High pressure hydrogen is not as much of a fire hazzard, it literally blows itself out.

It does leak, that's one of the myriad of technical problems that they need to work out.

The other being high pressure steam in the combustion chamber.

And it's not perfectly clean, reacts not just with oxygen, and air is not pure oxygen. Thankfully. Pure H and O wouldn't work in an internal combustion engine with the materials we have now.

 

I am sure they will find some sort of a way to use liquid hydrogen or some sort of fuel cell one day. But make no mistake about Bush and Texas. Texas = oil and if gas prices go up, Bush's constituents and maybe even his family members will be happy. Remember the soap opera "Dallas"?
That came from OPEC. Some of the members of OPEC now are our "friends" ie Saudi Arabia, which has the largest oil reserve in the world. Guess who's next? Iraq. Is it coincidental? That is up to your judgment. Also, with oil prices going up, its easier to brush aside the environmental concerns of offshore drilling. Everything he did so far from the gradual repeal of Estate Tax(benefit top 5 percent of the population with min 1 million net worth) to taking away the step up basis of real estate appreciation in estate transfer shows he is no friend to the middle class. His $600 tax rebate, did it really help anyoone? He considers the deficit inconsequential. If I spent on a credit card and consider the balance inconseqential, I be bankrupt real fast. However, I dont have the power of taxation of IRS. It is amazing to me that the largest expenditure in the federal government is the interest on the debt, more than the defense budget(#3), and social services(welfare#2). The processing of oil is no more expensive 6 months ago till now. Someone is making money. It is not the supply because Saudi did not decrease their shipment and we dont get our oil from Iraq. So explain to me why someone is not making more money?

 

Two things to say: One is a question, and one is a fact.

1. Hydrogen as vehicle fuel is a great idea. However, it is not the panacea that you might imagine. This stuff is SERIOUSLY explosive, and has a tendency to rise. And it is not a completely clean fuel- any time combustion takes place in the atmosphere, a serious pollutant called NOx is produced. This the component of smog which is brown-colored.

2. How many of you are in/have lived in Europe?

-Why do I ask that? Well, I'm sitting here at an internet cafe in Brussels, Belgium looking out the window at a beautiful Peugeot 406 Coupe. Underpowered but largely built by PinninFarina, these cars are probably some of the nicest looking ever built. Too bad you cannot drive down to your local Peugeot store in the United States and at least check out my claims of aesthetic success-

And there are many more examples, such as the interesting looking SEAT's [Spanish cars, this company is owned by Volkswagen], or the Lotus Elise. Why is this true? Why are we denied the possibility of owning cars like these?

Because your friendly representatives in Washington decided long ago to impose strict crash-worthiness standards on cars sold in the United States. Not a bad idea really, when you consider how some people drive, but there was a tiny, barely noticed fact that went along with these standards...that they made it prohibitively expensive for many brands to effectively make a worthwile profit by selling their products in the United States.

SO...who do you think might be happy that these new standards were legislated? Ralph Nader? Perhaps. But think for a second...what groups might benefit financially from all this?

Perhaps the domestic US automakers....

SO in one fell-swoop they have eliminated about half of their competition in what is probably the most competitive market in the world. AND now, perhaps because chitrolet cannot sell enough chevettes [sorry, corvettes...but I keep getting them confused- ], they've decided, instead of building a decent car worthy of the name applied to it, to simply pay off a few of the "Professional Influence Pedlers" [aka congressmen] to make vehicles intended for the US market even MORE different from the vehicles sold everywhere else in the world, and perhaps chase out a few other automotive companies...such as Porsche.

Consider for a few minutes, the costs of building and selling a vehicle for a unique market, one that is intensely competitive, has plenty of used vehicles available, and requires completely different designs that make vehicles sold there almost unsaleable elsewhere. Now put yourself in Porsche's position...

Anyway, all that was a bunch of bored ramblings of Normy's, and I surely don't have any proof that the above is true, but think about it for a second or three and it will make sense.

And the hordes of SUV drivers blithely continue to roam. I'm personally trying to decide if conniving auto companies or a [largely] apathetic populance is more annoying. Any thoughts?

Normy!
'85 928S2 5 Speed

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Three words; New York Times...And BMW Group just re-introduced a very fuel efficient V-12 for the 5000 lb+ cars, this would seem to conflict with the BMW 7hL hydrogen fleet. Do you even read what you write?!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">blackdogbd: Uh, one uses gasoline/petrol and the other uses hyrogen? what's your point?

the new V12 is part of the trend that bigger is better and says nothing about the furthering of the idea of alternative fueled cars, something that BMW has been doing for at least 20 years. We're not forgetting the V16 Cadillac, right? The hydrogen 7-series is a example of the fact alternatives do exist, and that's it. you've got to get your point clear. in that article they're obviously not addressing fuel efficiency, they are addressing an entirely different idea of fuel consumption.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The question is not only how alternative fuels, such as hydrogen, can be produced, but also how to implement a global change-over to alternative energy sources. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">don't get fuel effiency and alternative fuel innovation mixed up. Go start another thread on it or something.

Normy - right on brother, very good points. i'm about to blow this popsicle stand with our No-Forun-Policy-Experience, Cowboy George for President and head your way... Luckily for me geting an EU work permit is a piece of cake (for me)- I may not live easy, but at least i'll live well.

<img src="http://images.ucomics.com/comics/gm/2003/gm030218.gif" alt=" - " />
note crude chevrolet badge on car..

 

this more to the point of the thread...

<img src="http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ta/2003/ta030129.gif" alt=" - " />

 

Norm.

You think we're going to Iraq to take the oil? Remember that at one point in time George the Elder had the entire western part of the country occupied. If that was the intention why not do it then. Have you forgotten 911 so quickly.

As to the automotive thing. If the Automakers really had that much power don't you think that they would have gotten the Japanese kicked out. You think they're worried about the likes of Peugot and Fiat? Peugot has never sold well in the US, even when they could, mainly because their cars are crap.

LOOK OUT! IS THAT A BLACK HELICOPTER BEHIND YOU?!?!

 

Yeap. We had to give back that large chunk of Iraq because the UN wanted us to. We are not listening to them again.

Normy: The Jap cars are designed for and sold in the US market. These makers own the US market. They are able to meet and exceed the US restrictions. You are going to have to look elsewhere as to why some Euro car manufacturers can not figure out how to build a car for the US market.

You are correct on the NOx from a combustion. This is especially true for high pressure/temperature internal combustion. Even though our local electrical power is mostly generated from natural gas turbines, the high temp and pressure create high levels of NOx. No catalytic converters on their exhaust stacks!

Hydrogen fuel cells would combust at very low temps thus very low NOx emissions. As to storage: Metallic hydrogen.

I don't buy your auto makers conspiracy. I've never given them than much credit for future think. If I were to blame anyone it would be our lawsuit happy legal system. But I do love blood sucking lawyers when they are mine!

Deni: Good luck with your EU work permit. Need anyone to help pack your bags?

 

SoCal: Even better, you could get me a plane ticket, make it Coach. Hopefully the terrorists won't get to you or OC first, but then again, maybe the duct tape/plastic and Bush's Texan Cowboy monkey rhetoric will save you, but i doubt it.

This thread is turning out to be quite entertaining, as usual, especially with SidViscosity and OCdriver on board.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by FormulaOne10:
<strong>First the claims of oil company gouging are completely unfounded. My father is an ex oil industry manager...he always laughed off these reports of gouging. You should actually know that most of the extra money you play for gasoline can be attributed to taxes (mostly state and local). Oil companies make only a few pennies on each tank of gas they sell. They make much more on the can of coke you buy in the snack shop. Show me evidence of gouging and then I will believe you ( I have yet to see it)...seems like simple supply and demand to me (ever heard of OPEC?). Gouging is based on unfounded rumors by anti-industrialists who have no proof beyond an increase in oil prices and profits for oil companies. I forgot that oil companies are not allowed to make a profit. Btw, the federal government has repeatedly investigated gouging in the oil industry...and comes up empty handed almost every time.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If that is true, why do oil companies keep posting record profits? If they are merely keeping up with the price of crude oil, shouldn't their profits remain about the same? Or is there some other factor?

And as for the federal government "looking into it," well...there's plenty of theories, true or not, as to that...

 

Having the western part of the country occupied and keeping it will not be acceptable to the rest of the world without removing dictator and putting our own pro U. S. govt in place. Maybe we are going to do it right this time? Its funny now Afghanistan's govt has no problems with the U. S. and the head of their govt is protected by U. S. troops. How is that different from what the Russians did over 20 years ago to Afghanistan? By the way, that was when we were giving Bin Laden money to fight the Russians. He was on the right side at that time. No one forgot 911. If Powell can show some real convincing evidence that 911 was caused by Sadam Hussein, I am sure the rest of the world would have been behind us and I for one would go to Iraq and fight. I am not so arrogant to think all the rest of the world is stupid and I am surely not convinced myself. SUVs definitely do not help the oil dependence to the middle east and if you believe some of these islamic countries fund terriorism, perhaps you believe these SUV owners are funding 911. They did link many Saudi sources for funding Al Queda and yes we do buy much of our oil from them. I think the oil companies make money off this gas price hike and the have tremendous political clout. SUVs I believe will be one of those fads that come and go when the price of gas go to $4+ a gallon similar to Europe. I am a republican but I just can't agree to some of the stuff happening..... where do we stop? Iran? North Korea? Is it any wonder why they are building more nukes? I just want to enjoy life and have my good ol 951s.

 

"If that is true, why do oil companies keep posting record profits"

Because they're good businessman?

Are ou saying they shouldn't make money?

The difference with the russians is that they invaded the country, and sought to own it, we do not. It was essentially Russias Vietnam.

And we sided with Bin Laden then cause he was working for the same goal. Just like when we worked with Saddam. World politics is usually bothe very complicated and very simple at the same time.

 

Inelastic demand of gas and their oligopolic nature do not require oil companies to be good businessmen to make record profits. We did not invade the country of Afghanistan? Do we own it? Do we work with the devil when they have the same goal we do? Is that terriorism when it was done to the russians? Does that not make us on the same side of the devil? I guess it is too complicated for me and too simple for me at the same time. I just call things as I see it

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by deni durrell:
<strong>SoCal: Even better, you could get me a plane ticket, make it Coach. Hopefully the terrorists won't get to you or OC first, but then again, maybe the duct tape/plastic and Bush's Texan Cowboy monkey rhetoric will save you, but i doubt it.

This thread is turning out to be quite entertaining, as usual, especially with SidViscosity and OCdriver on board.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">As long as you renounce your US citizenship (if you are one at all) and take a few of the Hollywood socialists that promised to go if the last presidential election didn't go their way. I think I can get you the one way ticket.

Say did anyone catch some of the protest signs in SF? One said:

Except for ending
Slavery, Fascism,
Nazisn & Communism
WAR
HAS NEVER
SOLVED
ANYTHING

Another said:

Saddam Only
Kills His
Own People
IT'S NONE
OF OUR
BUSINESS

 

By the way, Toyotas and Hondas are not jap cars. They are made here by people here with lots of parts made here and all over the world. Look at the VIN of your "jap" cars and maybe you will find them more domestic than the KYB struts on your mustang.

 

point well stated Lego.

also "Is it any wonder why they are building more nukes?"

yes, either they are feeling threatened by our policies or they are trying to extort more money out of us, or both, i still haven't figured this one out. on the cnn.com site, they say that n. korea has the largest conscripted army (in direct ratio per population) with over 1 million people enlisted.

then i turn on dateline on the tele a while ago and see how n. korean boys illegally cross into china via a river like mexicans going through Tijuana or Otay Mesa or the Rio Grande. Once there, they beg for money, go back to the border swallow the cash, cross the river and try and make it back without getting arrested. if they get arrested, they get 10 years (on the second offense). when asked about their parents, several different boys said that had physically watched most of of their family die from starvation. these kids are like 9-13 years old.

my point about europe/europeans is that although they may not be 100% right (i.e., Mugabe and idiot, stupid France?), at least most people are aware of this stuff and aware of most things on an international level. i feel that most americans are scary clueless or purposefully choose naivete through the media, material wealth and individualistic, compartmentalised, ignorant behavior. that's my two bits.... <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" />