Damian in NJ

I'd second the recommendation. Upgrading to the mo30 bars made a big difference in my car's handling.

M758

Here is my take.

For a street car the M030 set-up is nice. It will be very noticable as the car with roll less and react faster. For semi-serious to serious track duty I really recommend the Weltmeister bars. Reason is adjustability. The M030 is good , but lacks adjustabilty. When you are at the track and want to fine tune the balacnce of the car the simplest and best way is with the sway bars. The infinite adjustment is great for this.

If getting the perfect balance is not that important then M030's will probably work fine.

As for basic handeling balance. I have learned that it is really quite complicated to determine and very car and driver dependant.

Waterguy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> So Danno, are you saying saying saying saying saying that the car won't be balanced with the following setup:

Koni Yellow Rears
Koni Yellow Hacksaw Fronts w/ 250lb. springs
M030 Sways 30 front 19 back
RE730 tires on Fuchs

Isn't this essentially the Turbo S setup?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The Turbo S/M030 setup is 160 lb front coil springs and 25.5 mm rear torsion bars. The combination of 250 lb front springs with the stock 23.5 mm turbo torsion bars seems unbalanced and will likely contribute to oversteer. You might want to go softer up front or upgrade the torsion bars. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

Joel

It's interesting to hear about all of the different suspension settings people have. Some say their cars handle like a dream, others are still looking for the right combination. I, unfortunately, fall into the latter category. My 83 944 has Koni Yellow adjustable front struts, 250lb springs, stock front sway bar (20mm or 22mm I think), Bilstein sport rear shocks, 25.5mm torsion bars (stock was 23mm), and an 18mm rear sway bar (stock was 14mm). It is also lowered about 1 inch front and rear.

My car understeers horribly on the track (I use Hoosier R3S03 tires). So what's the problem? I apparently did not stiffen the rear enough. So do I go through the pain and torture of upgrading the torsion bars again? Do I go with a 19mm adjustable rear sway bar? I'm hesitant to put a bigger front swaybar on because that will induce even more understeer.

Any ideas while keeping the price reasonable (I just can't afford to coil-over the rear)?

PorscheG96

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Waterguy:
<strong>The combination of 250 lb front springs with the stock 23.5 mm turbo torsion bars seems unbalanced and will likely contribute to oversteer. You might want to go softer up front or upgrade the torsion bars. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Sounds like a recipe for understeer to me. With greater front spring rates the car will experience greater weight shift to the rear [because the rear end will compress more, and it's just geometry at that point] meaning less traction for the front tires and nasty understeer. I think there was a certain purple 951 at Sears [now Infineon Raceway] last year with a similar setup and it was all crunched up by the middle of the afternoon.

Joel, how firm do you have your adjustable Konis set on the front? Your rear Bilsteins aren't adjustable so there's nothing simple you can do with the rear...but if you're running your front shocks super stiff you should try softening them. 250# is not a super stiff spring so you don't need crazy rebound on the shock, so try turning it close to full soft and see how the balance reacts.

If you insist on leaving the rear end alone [and I won't blame you] then try some 200# front springs and soften the front shock valving accordingly. That's the advantage of adjustable shocks, you can get the valving just right when you swap out different springs. Good luck!

hrk

I have koni yellows, 220 lbs front springs and M030 sway bars. Rear is set full soft, otherwise it tries to come arond when pushed hard on track. The balance of my car seems to change with speed. When lap times gets quicker I need to soften rear sway to gain neutral handling again.

M030 adjustment stays where it is put unlike some weltmeisters which slide because of inadequate or worn clamps.

my $0.02
hrk

M758

Ok here goes my suspension theory again..

front to rear balance
Stock on NA is 140 lbs-in Front and 126 effective rear wheel rate

So with 250 front you need about 250 rear. This will be neurtal to a bit of oversteer. 250 rear mean 28mm tbars.

Now I run Koni Yellow's Welt Adjustables, and 350lbs front and 30 mm rears (334 wheel rate). This is nice track car set-up. I can adjust the balance with sway bars.

Other guys run 250 front and 30mm rears. While this sounds like oversteer city it can work very well of you use a small rear sway bar.

Ken D

FWIW, my local parts supplier said Porsche recently raised the price on the 30mm M030 front sway bar. His price was now over $500 new. I have not seen these prices hit any of the dealers yet though. Maybe Skip can confirm??

Has anyone tried Strasse's 30mm/22mm combo?

Skip

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by M758:
<strong>Other guys run 250 front and 30mm rears. While this sounds like oversteer city it can work very well of you use a small rear sway bar.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Which works well if you do_not have LSD... otherwise, I'd steer clear of the dinky rear bar approach and beef up the front to control dive.. another hazard.

Just as another point of reference - my car is 400# front, 30mm rear, 30/19mm sways, and I can perfectly dial in a wee-bit of oversteer (my preference)... especially when using the unfortunate 225/45-15's on all four (rather than my preferred 245 rear, 225 front combo). Though, my car is at the class limit for a 2.7l for weight... slightly biased to the rear (51/49).

Skip

Skip

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ken D:
<strong>FWIW, my local parts supplier said Porsche recently raised the price on the 30mm M030 front sway bar. His price was now over $500 new. I have not seen these prices hit any of the dealers yet though. Maybe Skip can confirm??
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Unfortunately, yes - it is true - though, that price is not a match for ours. Some may still have the "old stock"... not for long, though.