STEREO that kicks a@@
07-10-2003, 12:32 PM
#31
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I just installed 6x9's in the rear last night. Had to do some machine work (cutting <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> )....but it looks fine, mounts well, and sounds great! I had a set of 6.5's mounted back there, with brackets..they just didn't quite do it for me...and the 6x9's were lying around in speaker boxes (they used to sit behind the seats, but were in the way too much). All I need now is a 4-way 400W amp and things will be nice.
07-10-2003, 12:49 PM
#32
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 944pete:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by slevy951:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by snappy:
<strong> The enclosure's from KLR industries are really nothing more than a hack, it will definately increase your bass but I am pritty sure the 8" will have eaither to much volume or to little to breate.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Boy, that's quite a criticism. Have you seen or heard my product? I will admit, there's not much space in the cubby's, but my box works VERY well. There is enough air for an 8. I have one customer who is competeing with just one and a JL sub! It sounds that good!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Perry951 has them in his car and the sound is incredible. The bass is very tight and punchy.
If it's good enough for him...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I was waiting for someone from the Fest to comment on my system. Unless you want to bang a 15 back there, the 2 Kicker 8"s I have provide an excellent amount of bass. Combined with the Polks in the front and rear, it has one of the best sound stages I have heard in a 944. The added bonus of a stock looking (and fitting) enclosure sold me on them. As far as DB levels, I don't have an exact number, but I can get clean sound loud enough to hurt, and have room to spare.
Don't knock them unless you have heard them.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by slevy951:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by snappy:
<strong> The enclosure's from KLR industries are really nothing more than a hack, it will definately increase your bass but I am pritty sure the 8" will have eaither to much volume or to little to breate.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Boy, that's quite a criticism. Have you seen or heard my product? I will admit, there's not much space in the cubby's, but my box works VERY well. There is enough air for an 8. I have one customer who is competeing with just one and a JL sub! It sounds that good!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Perry951 has them in his car and the sound is incredible. The bass is very tight and punchy.
If it's good enough for him...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I was waiting for someone from the Fest to comment on my system. Unless you want to bang a 15 back there, the 2 Kicker 8"s I have provide an excellent amount of bass. Combined with the Polks in the front and rear, it has one of the best sound stages I have heard in a 944. The added bonus of a stock looking (and fitting) enclosure sold me on them. As far as DB levels, I don't have an exact number, but I can get clean sound loud enough to hurt, and have room to spare.
Don't knock them unless you have heard them.
07-10-2003, 12:57 PM
#33
slevy951 , indeed I have.It sounded terrible actually, But that was due to the person running a 200W 8" of his car radio output. He said he bought it from ebay. He later installed an amp and it sounded much better, but I know that they sub was still not playing at it's optimum.
I strive to get the best sound out of a product I purchase and have "almost never" came across a "one size fits all" design that utilizes the subwoofer to it's maximum.
I can tell you this for sure. .3ft is very small. unless you add sound mesh into it and double that to a .5ft -.6ft sealed enclosure you would need a very high quality 8" that has a high excursion rate to it could tighten up the bass. And not produce a flat thump. Very few (great drivers) does that in an 8". My guess is that a ported design would yield much better performance out of those 8" cubbies but due to the shape of them it would be hard to get them dialed in. Altho not impossible. Being in such a small enclosure you have to end up running your sub in the high 90Hz range for it to be efficient. whereas if you have more "volume" to work with you could drop that down around the 60's. Most 8" are designed for mid-bass the range between 90Hz and 250Hz. That is where they perform the best.
Then again what sounds good to me might not sound good to you. At the end of the day it is a matter of taste.
I strive to get the best sound out of a product I purchase and have "almost never" came across a "one size fits all" design that utilizes the subwoofer to it's maximum.
I can tell you this for sure. .3ft is very small. unless you add sound mesh into it and double that to a .5ft -.6ft sealed enclosure you would need a very high quality 8" that has a high excursion rate to it could tighten up the bass. And not produce a flat thump. Very few (great drivers) does that in an 8". My guess is that a ported design would yield much better performance out of those 8" cubbies but due to the shape of them it would be hard to get them dialed in. Altho not impossible. Being in such a small enclosure you have to end up running your sub in the high 90Hz range for it to be efficient. whereas if you have more "volume" to work with you could drop that down around the 60's. Most 8" are designed for mid-bass the range between 90Hz and 250Hz. That is where they perform the best.
Then again what sounds good to me might not sound good to you. At the end of the day it is a matter of taste.
07-10-2003, 01:32 PM
#34
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My Kickers call for a .33cu/ft sealed enclosure and 250 watts RMS. The box size is perfect for my application, and with the juice I am running to them, it is perfectly matched. (I have another 10% overhead from the amp that I could use, and 2 caps I could install, but I like it as it is) If you have drivers that call for a ported design, grab a hole saw and go at it. Easier to port a box than seal one that is already ported.
Of course, if you use a crappy driver and even worse power, it's gonna sound like dirt. Half *** something and you will get a half assed return.
2 of my friends (both had and displayed competition systems) gave it a big thumbs up. Pretty much everyone at the fest that sat in the front seats and took a listen came away with a smile.
Again, almost any 8 is not going to pound. If that is your goal, you gotta go big. If you want a high quality listening experience, go for good equipment and a proper installation. The boxes definately fit in that high quality catagory without issue.
This is coming from someone who spends 6 hours a day in a $700,000 full digital broadcast studio. I do have a pretty good grasp on what sounds good and what dosen't.
Of course, if you use a crappy driver and even worse power, it's gonna sound like dirt. Half *** something and you will get a half assed return.
2 of my friends (both had and displayed competition systems) gave it a big thumbs up. Pretty much everyone at the fest that sat in the front seats and took a listen came away with a smile.
Again, almost any 8 is not going to pound. If that is your goal, you gotta go big. If you want a high quality listening experience, go for good equipment and a proper installation. The boxes definately fit in that high quality catagory without issue.
This is coming from someone who spends 6 hours a day in a $700,000 full digital broadcast studio. I do have a pretty good grasp on what sounds good and what dosen't.
07-10-2003, 01:40 PM
#35
Drifting
Perry,
Where do you mount your two (I assume) amps, now that both cubbies have boxes in them?
And has anyone tried the Nakamichi MusicBank receivers? They look like they'll fit our dashes perfectly style-wise, and also have a good reputation.
Where do you mount your two (I assume) amps, now that both cubbies have boxes in them?
And has anyone tried the Nakamichi MusicBank receivers? They look like they'll fit our dashes perfectly style-wise, and also have a good reputation.
07-10-2003, 05:08 PM
#37
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by snappy:
<strong>slevy951 , indeed I have.It sounded terrible actually, But that was due to the person running a 200W 8" of his car radio output. He said he bought it from ebay. He later installed an amp and it sounded much better, but I know that they sub was still not playing at it's optimum.
I strive to get the best sound out of a product I purchase and have "almost never" came across a "one size fits all" design that utilizes the subwoofer to it's maximum.
I can tell you this for sure. .3ft is very small. unless you add sound mesh into it and double that to a .5ft -.6ft sealed enclosure you would need a very high quality 8" that has a high excursion rate to it could tighten up the bass. And not produce a flat thump. Very few (great drivers) does that in an 8". My guess is that a ported design would yield much better performance out of those 8" cubbies but due to the shape of them it would be hard to get them dialed in. Altho not impossible. Being in such a small enclosure you have to end up running your sub in the high 90Hz range for it to be efficient. whereas if you have more "volume" to work with you could drop that down around the 60's. Most 8" are designed for mid-bass the range between 90Hz and 250Hz. That is where they perform the best.
Then again what sounds good to me might not sound good to you. At the end of the day it is a matter of taste.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">BTW, I do stuff the box to help it out. And, consider, that I have no control over a bad design/install of a system. I think we agree on that. But, from what you've said, I don't think the problem is with my product. Was he using the RF driver I sell with the box? Also, I did design as sealed on purpose. 1-because ported designs tend to need more space that I didn't have. 2-I like the sound of sealed systems better.
<strong>slevy951 , indeed I have.It sounded terrible actually, But that was due to the person running a 200W 8" of his car radio output. He said he bought it from ebay. He later installed an amp and it sounded much better, but I know that they sub was still not playing at it's optimum.
I strive to get the best sound out of a product I purchase and have "almost never" came across a "one size fits all" design that utilizes the subwoofer to it's maximum.
I can tell you this for sure. .3ft is very small. unless you add sound mesh into it and double that to a .5ft -.6ft sealed enclosure you would need a very high quality 8" that has a high excursion rate to it could tighten up the bass. And not produce a flat thump. Very few (great drivers) does that in an 8". My guess is that a ported design would yield much better performance out of those 8" cubbies but due to the shape of them it would be hard to get them dialed in. Altho not impossible. Being in such a small enclosure you have to end up running your sub in the high 90Hz range for it to be efficient. whereas if you have more "volume" to work with you could drop that down around the 60's. Most 8" are designed for mid-bass the range between 90Hz and 250Hz. That is where they perform the best.
Then again what sounds good to me might not sound good to you. At the end of the day it is a matter of taste.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">BTW, I do stuff the box to help it out. And, consider, that I have no control over a bad design/install of a system. I think we agree on that. But, from what you've said, I don't think the problem is with my product. Was he using the RF driver I sell with the box? Also, I did design as sealed on purpose. 1-because ported designs tend to need more space that I didn't have. 2-I like the sound of sealed systems better.
07-10-2003, 05:35 PM
#38
no i don't think he used it. i think you took my comments wrong. we come from 2 different directions on this. i have a minimum acceptance of mid/low bass and have never been able to achieve it with the 8's I tried about 3 different drivers and custom enclosures. Not to say they sucked but compared to my single 10", it is at least 2 times as efficient as the two 8". The just did not live up to what i wanted. I did not 15" subs in the back cause i still use my car to pick up the groceries/xmas tree so i created a 10" 800 W RMS ported enclosure that gave me what i needed. I would rather sacrifice the stock look than settle for semi decent sound. I agree that for the stealth/stock look your product is the best out there that i have seen. It sits to far away from the angle glass to give you the chest thump an external box can give and the 8"'s just don't have that extra oompf you get in the larger drivers.
Now an interesting concept would be to pair them with a another external SUb. Pushing the external ones at between 33 and 90Hz as Low bass, then pushing those 8's at 90 - 300Hz as mid-bass and let your fronts go from 300 - 2kHz (you would split them up in 2 aswell - eg. 300 -1kHz then 850 -2kHz) and then tweets play 2 - 5kHz that would be an idea I can buy into.
Now an interesting concept would be to pair them with a another external SUb. Pushing the external ones at between 33 and 90Hz as Low bass, then pushing those 8's at 90 - 300Hz as mid-bass and let your fronts go from 300 - 2kHz (you would split them up in 2 aswell - eg. 300 -1kHz then 850 -2kHz) and then tweets play 2 - 5kHz that would be an idea I can buy into.
07-10-2003, 06:04 PM
#39
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Ok, so I guess the question is, with a '86 can I fit a 6x9 in the back? If so, what would it take to mod, would it look good, any good speakers for that car?? Thanks.
07-10-2003, 06:23 PM
#40
Mike from my understanding is that the rear of the 86 can only fit in 4x6's you can always cut a bigger hole out but that becomes a job on it's own. The back panel seems fairly close to the speaker in the rear so if you do decide to cut out and mount 6x4 at the back then then woofer might hit the panel. You could always cut it out but. Remember that when you cut it. You cant uncut it, Be sure you want to start cutting in your car. you cant go back from there. Rule of thumb. measure 10 times cut once. the speakers would depend on what you plan on running them with your in-dash or amps. and ultimately what option you are going with for mounting in the front or rear.
07-10-2003, 06:53 PM
#41
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Mike1982:
<strong>Ok, so I guess the question is, with a '86 can I fit a 6x9 in the back? If so, what would it take to mod, would it look good, any good speakers for that car?? Thanks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You can fit a lot more than that. check out my post on thee first page
<strong>Ok, so I guess the question is, with a '86 can I fit a 6x9 in the back? If so, what would it take to mod, would it look good, any good speakers for that car?? Thanks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You can fit a lot more than that. check out my post on thee first page
07-11-2003, 02:04 AM
#43
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by snappy:
<strong>no i don't think he used it. i think you took my comments wrong. we come from 2 different directions on this. i have a minimum acceptance of mid/low bass and have never been able to achieve it with the 8's I tried about 3 different drivers and custom enclosures. Not to say they sucked but compared to my single 10", it is at least 2 times as efficient as the two 8". The just did not live up to what i wanted. I did not 15" subs in the back cause i still use my car to pick up the groceries/xmas tree so i created a 10" 800 W RMS ported enclosure that gave me what i needed. I would rather sacrifice the stock look than settle for semi decent sound. I agree that for the stealth/stock look your product is the best out there that i have seen. It sits to far away from the angle glass to give you the chest thump an external box can give and the 8"'s just don't have that extra oompf you get in the larger drivers.
Now an interesting concept would be to pair them with a another external SUb. Pushing the external ones at between 33 and 90Hz as Low bass, then pushing those 8's at 90 - 300Hz as mid-bass and let your fronts go from 300 - 2kHz (you would split them up in 2 aswell - eg. 300 -1kHz then 850 -2kHz) and then tweets play 2 - 5kHz that would be an idea I can buy into.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Snappy,
I may have taken your comments wrong. The term "hack" you used probably is what set it in motion. I will agree that 8's will not have the SPL of 10's, 12's, or anything larger. Plus different people have differnt goals in mind for their systems. My goal in this design was the best sound possible while keeping a factory appearance. I think I have accomplished that perfectly. I must admit, I was offended by your original post. But, I think we're coming together. And I think you'll agree my product is very good for it's design. I'd like for you to demo it in a better set up system than the one you've described. I think you'd be much more impressed with it. Plus along those lines, I am making a 10" spare tire replacement sub that will be released very soon. It follows the same design criteria as the cubby subs, good sound, factory looks, reasonable price.
<strong>no i don't think he used it. i think you took my comments wrong. we come from 2 different directions on this. i have a minimum acceptance of mid/low bass and have never been able to achieve it with the 8's I tried about 3 different drivers and custom enclosures. Not to say they sucked but compared to my single 10", it is at least 2 times as efficient as the two 8". The just did not live up to what i wanted. I did not 15" subs in the back cause i still use my car to pick up the groceries/xmas tree so i created a 10" 800 W RMS ported enclosure that gave me what i needed. I would rather sacrifice the stock look than settle for semi decent sound. I agree that for the stealth/stock look your product is the best out there that i have seen. It sits to far away from the angle glass to give you the chest thump an external box can give and the 8"'s just don't have that extra oompf you get in the larger drivers.
Now an interesting concept would be to pair them with a another external SUb. Pushing the external ones at between 33 and 90Hz as Low bass, then pushing those 8's at 90 - 300Hz as mid-bass and let your fronts go from 300 - 2kHz (you would split them up in 2 aswell - eg. 300 -1kHz then 850 -2kHz) and then tweets play 2 - 5kHz that would be an idea I can buy into.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Snappy,
I may have taken your comments wrong. The term "hack" you used probably is what set it in motion. I will agree that 8's will not have the SPL of 10's, 12's, or anything larger. Plus different people have differnt goals in mind for their systems. My goal in this design was the best sound possible while keeping a factory appearance. I think I have accomplished that perfectly. I must admit, I was offended by your original post. But, I think we're coming together. And I think you'll agree my product is very good for it's design. I'd like for you to demo it in a better set up system than the one you've described. I think you'd be much more impressed with it. Plus along those lines, I am making a 10" spare tire replacement sub that will be released very soon. It follows the same design criteria as the cubby subs, good sound, factory looks, reasonable price.
07-11-2003, 01:07 PM
#44
slevy951, thinking about it now it was probably the wrong word to use. sorry if i rubbed you up the wrong way. ps. english is my second language so <insert>excuse here</insert> coming back to an early point, I really think if we can go with a 10" in the spare tire spot and one or 2 8's in the side pockets for midd bass that would be the makings of a great system. I am trying to see if I can mount an 8" in the rear backs at the moment. These cars are exceptionally hard to create "competition" level sound out of them. Not just load but clear / clean . The rears are really close to you and the subs end up being far away. The midd bass is sorely missed. If I was more skilled with fiberglass I would have made new door panels and do a 3 way setup in them. 6.5" and will push those as the mid bass and 5" as midrange and then tweeters. If anyone lives in my are and would want to work on this project I am sure we can end up selling a few of them to the people here on the list. There seems to be a high demand for better sound but we are restricted by space. We can definitely get it looking close to stock, I have a work-area and can pitch in some cash I just don't know how to mold and don't really want to BONDO it. There will be so much bondo that i think the door will brake off if I open it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I have a few kick-panel enclosures that is small profile and can be used as a templates.
If someone is interested drop me a line.
PS. I "tuned" my crossovers last night using 2 laptops and "Modulation and EQ displays. I knew it would have made a difference but wow. The acoustics on the interior is really weird. For instance the side stock driver speaker locations produce very little bass in the 800hz range even if I push 800hz to them the curve drops off really low compared to the back. The back locations produce and moves the sound closer to our "head" position (this is what you are after in your mid's). I placed the 2 stereo mic's on c style hooks over the headrests and then started setting the crossover at a very low audio level. I know how the curve should look an set the crossovers manually to that position. But to my surprise everything was off. I checked and double checked but no dice. It turns out that our car's absorb allot of the lower level ranges aka mid- base. it actually looses it's efficiency. And the highs actually pick up. To fix this I had to up the crossover points on the sub to 58 which is 18Hz higher than I had it. and I had to "cut off" the tweeters at 6.2kHz i think it was at 12kHz. Here is a quick graph of a pretty good outcome (your flavor might be different but try it out and then go from there)
Previous setup.
- | - | - | - | - | - | * | - | - | +2
- | - | - | * | - | - | - | - | - | +1
- | - | - | - | * | - | - | - | * | 0
- | * | - | - | - | * | - | * | - | -1
- | - | * | - | - | - | - | - | - | -2
30| 40 | 50 | 80|100|300|800|5.8k|10k|
Compared to the new setup.
- | * | * | - | - | - | - | - | - | +2
* | - | - | * | - | * | - | - | - | +1
- | - | - | - | * | - | * | * | - | 0
- | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | * | -1
- | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | -2
30| 40 | 50 | 80|100|300|800|5.8k|10k|
Hope this comes out.
Note that i used a 24 band so there were many in between I did not list here but this is a good summery of the deference's. Every car has different acoustics. And so does every speaker. and then if you though the subjectiveness of the human hearing taste in there it really mixes things up.
The real interesting part was that the sub measured 48Hz at the sub location give or take a few. But when measured the same sound in front at the headrest it dropped down around 40Hz and also picked up volume.
And to think I am still trying to figure out what spacers I need to mount my 50 offset front and 40 offset rear 16 porsche wheels on my 86. sheesh
I have a few kick-panel enclosures that is small profile and can be used as a templates.
If someone is interested drop me a line.
PS. I "tuned" my crossovers last night using 2 laptops and "Modulation and EQ displays. I knew it would have made a difference but wow. The acoustics on the interior is really weird. For instance the side stock driver speaker locations produce very little bass in the 800hz range even if I push 800hz to them the curve drops off really low compared to the back. The back locations produce and moves the sound closer to our "head" position (this is what you are after in your mid's). I placed the 2 stereo mic's on c style hooks over the headrests and then started setting the crossover at a very low audio level. I know how the curve should look an set the crossovers manually to that position. But to my surprise everything was off. I checked and double checked but no dice. It turns out that our car's absorb allot of the lower level ranges aka mid- base. it actually looses it's efficiency. And the highs actually pick up. To fix this I had to up the crossover points on the sub to 58 which is 18Hz higher than I had it. and I had to "cut off" the tweeters at 6.2kHz i think it was at 12kHz. Here is a quick graph of a pretty good outcome (your flavor might be different but try it out and then go from there)
Previous setup.
- | - | - | - | - | - | * | - | - | +2
- | - | - | * | - | - | - | - | - | +1
- | - | - | - | * | - | - | - | * | 0
- | * | - | - | - | * | - | * | - | -1
- | - | * | - | - | - | - | - | - | -2
30| 40 | 50 | 80|100|300|800|5.8k|10k|
Compared to the new setup.
- | * | * | - | - | - | - | - | - | +2
* | - | - | * | - | * | - | - | - | +1
- | - | - | - | * | - | * | * | - | 0
- | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | * | -1
- | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | -2
30| 40 | 50 | 80|100|300|800|5.8k|10k|
Hope this comes out.
Note that i used a 24 band so there were many in between I did not list here but this is a good summery of the deference's. Every car has different acoustics. And so does every speaker. and then if you though the subjectiveness of the human hearing taste in there it really mixes things up.
The real interesting part was that the sub measured 48Hz at the sub location give or take a few. But when measured the same sound in front at the headrest it dropped down around 40Hz and also picked up volume.
And to think I am still trying to figure out what spacers I need to mount my 50 offset front and 40 offset rear 16 porsche wheels on my 86. sheesh
07-11-2003, 01:30 PM
#45
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by snappy:
<strong>slevy951, thinking about it now it was probably the wrong word to use. sorry if i rubbed you up the wrong way.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">We're cool. Apology accepted. We seem to have the same goals of great sound....
<strong>slevy951, thinking about it now it was probably the wrong word to use. sorry if i rubbed you up the wrong way.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">We're cool. Apology accepted. We seem to have the same goals of great sound....