What do you think of using r12a refrigerant?
07-09-2003, 10:05 PM
#16
OK, I'll accept that on a chemical level, R12 may be a contributing factor to the depletion of ozone, but from reading breakdowns on what different pollutants contribute, it's like arguing that farting is contributing to global warming. Sure, it's warmer than the ambient temperature, but when all the REAL causes are added up, we're talking about what amounts to an insignificant contributor...it's just like putting warning labels on cigarettes rather than banning them, it's a token gesture enforced by the government to appease the lobbyists for the green groups, allowing the more harmful and significant sources to persist. If you want to wave tree hugging flags in this forum, I suggest you address the high percentage of cat-bypasses before worrying about the refrigerant in systems that really don't leak very much, and don't really get vented to the atmosphere anyway.
07-10-2003, 12:34 AM
#17
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And another reason there will be less R12 imported is that there are less and less R12 A/C systems in cars these days. R134 has been standard on new cars for many years and R12 cars are slowly ending up in the junkyard...
07-10-2003, 09:06 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
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Jason, you are talking about two different problems, ground level smog is caused from auto and industrial emissions, the damage to the ozone layer is not a function of smog, it is at least partially caused by the presence of CFCs in the upper atmosphere that act a catalysts in the breakdown of O3 (ozone) to O2 (oxygen). The problem is that the cfc acts as a catalyst and is not itself consumed in the reaction, one molecule of Dichlorodifluoromethane (R12) can facilitate the breakdown of any number of ozone molecules. Having said that I would agree that the amount of CFCs that entered the atmosphere from automotive air cond. systems is probably a very small percentage of the total. I have also heard it said that DuPont's patent on the formula was about to expire, so there was pressure from that front to ban it's manufacture.
07-10-2003, 11:56 AM
#20
Burning Brakes
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Thanks guy for your comments.
As there was few responses on r12a, it's hard for me to decide...
Mike S: it sure makes sense to get such certificate. I only need to check if this is applicable in Canada (also Kragen doesn't ship to destinations outside of USA).
I like the sense of humor of Jason (MachSchnell):
"it's like arguing that farting is contributing to global warming",
and agree that r12 in auto AC, currently used by very few auto enthusiasts, will have no significant effect on the ozone. Besides, I would recharge the system, not vent it to the atmosphere, and the leaks in my system are small.
cheers, Stan
As there was few responses on r12a, it's hard for me to decide...
Mike S: it sure makes sense to get such certificate. I only need to check if this is applicable in Canada (also Kragen doesn't ship to destinations outside of USA).
I like the sense of humor of Jason (MachSchnell):
"it's like arguing that farting is contributing to global warming",
and agree that r12 in auto AC, currently used by very few auto enthusiasts, will have no significant effect on the ozone. Besides, I would recharge the system, not vent it to the atmosphere, and the leaks in my system are small.
cheers, Stan
07-10-2003, 04:49 PM
#21
Drifting
How long does the exam take? I'm bored and want to take it.
Here's the website:
<a href="http://www.imaca.org" target="_blank">www.imaca.org</a>
<a href="http://www.imaca.org/sg-all.htm" target="_blank">www.imaca.org/sg-all.htm</a>
<a href="https://mmm07.rapidsite.net/imacao/etest.htm" target="_blank">https://mmm07.rapidsite.net/imacao/etest.htm</a>
Here's the website:
<a href="http://www.imaca.org" target="_blank">www.imaca.org</a>
<a href="http://www.imaca.org/sg-all.htm" target="_blank">www.imaca.org/sg-all.htm</a>
<a href="https://mmm07.rapidsite.net/imacao/etest.htm" target="_blank">https://mmm07.rapidsite.net/imacao/etest.htm</a>
07-10-2003, 05:21 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
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I think if you read the info about certification you'll find that you must pass the exam AND you must have the appropriate equipment to service automotive A/C systems. "... persons who repair or service motor vehicle air conditioning units for consideration must be certified in refrigerant recovery and recycling, and must properly use approved equipment when performing service involving the refrigerant." (from the IMACA website)
Servicing a car without the recovery equipment would be appear to also be a violation of the Clean Air Act (and State and local regulations). This is especially a worry if you're certified because you have demonstrated that you know you're not supposed to do it. Furthermore, by applying for a certificate, you've give your name to the people who enforce the law.
So you can legally buy the R12 with a certificate, but you can't legally use unless you have approved equipment that costs about $5000.
That being said, you may get away with it.
Servicing a car without the recovery equipment would be appear to also be a violation of the Clean Air Act (and State and local regulations). This is especially a worry if you're certified because you have demonstrated that you know you're not supposed to do it. Furthermore, by applying for a certificate, you've give your name to the people who enforce the law.
So you can legally buy the R12 with a certificate, but you can't legally use unless you have approved equipment that costs about $5000.
That being said, you may get away with it.
07-10-2003, 05:35 PM
#23
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Ahhh...as far as the law goes with R12, you can legally buy it as soon as you have acquired your certification. However, it is illegal to vent into the atmosphere and it would be illegal to open your own shop and do A/C service without the proper equipment. They do not require you to have the equipment just to buy R12. Furthermore, if all you are doing is recharging the A/C I don't see why you would need to vent it to the atmosphere or recover it.
That being said, I think its a great way to go. Stick with the R12 in my opinion. Not sure if it works in Canada though, please let us know if you go this route. As far as the exam. It took me about 1/2 hour. They have an online study guide. Open that window or print it out and in a separate window open the test. Hint....you can use the "control F" button as a search to help you find key words.
That being said, I think its a great way to go. Stick with the R12 in my opinion. Not sure if it works in Canada though, please let us know if you go this route. As far as the exam. It took me about 1/2 hour. They have an online study guide. Open that window or print it out and in a separate window open the test. Hint....you can use the "control F" button as a search to help you find key words.
07-10-2003, 06:57 PM
#25
Drifting
Anyone got a spare set on connectors to get from the npt fitting on my manifold gauge hoses to the car? I have 16# of R-12 and no way to use it. No where either, since I have since discovered that the PO had it changed to R-134a, BUT THEY DIDN"T PUT THE STICKER ON THE CAR!! Buttheads. So out of courtesy to the next owner, please put the change-over sticker on the car no matter what material you end up going with. They will thank you for it.
07-10-2003, 07:07 PM
#26
Nordschleife Master
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Mike S:
<strong>Get your certification online from IMACA for $14.95(test is easy, just time consuming). You can then legally buy R12 from Kragen or ebay(ebay is cheaper usually) for $12-$20 a can. Two cans later you are done. That's a total investment of around $50 to refill it with R12 which it was originally designed for.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">And let it release into the environment because you don't have the equipment to find your leaks?
Why not just pay someone to convert to 134? It's not expensive, it works, and it's the responsible thing to do.
<strong>Get your certification online from IMACA for $14.95(test is easy, just time consuming). You can then legally buy R12 from Kragen or ebay(ebay is cheaper usually) for $12-$20 a can. Two cans later you are done. That's a total investment of around $50 to refill it with R12 which it was originally designed for.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">And let it release into the environment because you don't have the equipment to find your leaks?
Why not just pay someone to convert to 134? It's not expensive, it works, and it's the responsible thing to do.
07-11-2003, 02:34 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
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Coming back to r12a....
there is some info in
<a href="http://www.duracool.com/" target="_blank">http://www.duracool.com/</a>
under FAQS
In particular (quote):
What would the impact of and "incident level, once every 50 years" ignited automobile compartment leakage actually be?
In terms of the "impact", it is important to recognize that automobiles generally have 12-15 ounces of DURACOOL® refrigerant. If there were a full amount leak into an automobile compartment and it ignited, it would theoretically create a "flash" which would last 1-1.5 seconds.
(end-quote)
It is not clear to me how catastrophic such "flash" would be to passengers(injury, lethal, etc)?
What do you think?
there is some info in
<a href="http://www.duracool.com/" target="_blank">http://www.duracool.com/</a>
under FAQS
In particular (quote):
What would the impact of and "incident level, once every 50 years" ignited automobile compartment leakage actually be?
In terms of the "impact", it is important to recognize that automobiles generally have 12-15 ounces of DURACOOL® refrigerant. If there were a full amount leak into an automobile compartment and it ignited, it would theoretically create a "flash" which would last 1-1.5 seconds.
(end-quote)
It is not clear to me how catastrophic such "flash" would be to passengers(injury, lethal, etc)?
What do you think?
07-11-2003, 02:57 PM
#28
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And let it release into the environment because you don't have the equipment to find your leaks?
Peckster, I'm not saying you should just fill it if it has leaks. If you have leaks, you should use a die and find/repair them. It is way cheaper to fix and repair any leaks(mine doesn't have any by the way) than to replace with R134a(assuming you do it correctly). R134a also doesn't cool quite as well, which has been explained in detail in previous posts.
Peckster, I'm not saying you should just fill it if it has leaks. If you have leaks, you should use a die and find/repair them. It is way cheaper to fix and repair any leaks(mine doesn't have any by the way) than to replace with R134a(assuming you do it correctly). R134a also doesn't cool quite as well, which has been explained in detail in previous posts.
07-11-2003, 08:40 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
It may not cool as well, but it sure cools enough for Toronto.
So Stan, why the fixation on exploding R12a systems? If you're so concerned about it, why not just go with the right stuff?
So Stan, why the fixation on exploding R12a systems? If you're so concerned about it, why not just go with the right stuff?
07-13-2003, 12:44 PM
#30
1) LP is frequently used in the border towns in Mexico, our stores have analyzers for this reason as LP is very flammable/combustible. It does work however. It may be used in extremely small amounts as a propellant in R-12.
2) R-12 cools better than R-134a, especially in a car that was not designed for 134. To properly convert you need to A. have system evacuated B. remove compressor and change oil type C. have new hoses made in a smaller diameter D. convert fittings on high and low side E. fill with R134a but not the same amount as you would have with R-12.
3) Handlers license test has ALL the answers in the book that the test comes in. Go to your local community college auto department and ask for a test they will have either IMACA or MAC.
4) The reason that R-134a systems fail is that the pressure in a 134 system is much higher than that of R-12. It is not uncommon to lose R134a through the barrier hoses (as these are a complete joke as of this writing). R-12 systems should, for all intent and purpose, never need to be recharged. It is likely that over the course of 20 years that you have leaking seals. It is worth fixing? Not if it doesnt need to be recharged every 3 weeks as R-12 is getting expensive.
5. For the record, since the original question was about explosion, I have NEVER seen an AC system explode 12 or 134. I have done a ton of AC work probably 1000 jobs or more and I have NEVER seen that happen. Could it? Maybe. Will it? Not real likely. We often stored 5 30 lb containers of R12 in a store room with temps in the 150 degree range without ever experiencing a problem.
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2) R-12 cools better than R-134a, especially in a car that was not designed for 134. To properly convert you need to A. have system evacuated B. remove compressor and change oil type C. have new hoses made in a smaller diameter D. convert fittings on high and low side E. fill with R134a but not the same amount as you would have with R-12.
3) Handlers license test has ALL the answers in the book that the test comes in. Go to your local community college auto department and ask for a test they will have either IMACA or MAC.
4) The reason that R-134a systems fail is that the pressure in a 134 system is much higher than that of R-12. It is not uncommon to lose R134a through the barrier hoses (as these are a complete joke as of this writing). R-12 systems should, for all intent and purpose, never need to be recharged. It is likely that over the course of 20 years that you have leaking seals. It is worth fixing? Not if it doesnt need to be recharged every 3 weeks as R-12 is getting expensive.
5. For the record, since the original question was about explosion, I have NEVER seen an AC system explode 12 or 134. I have done a ton of AC work probably 1000 jobs or more and I have NEVER seen that happen. Could it? Maybe. Will it? Not real likely. We often stored 5 30 lb containers of R12 in a store room with temps in the 150 degree range without ever experiencing a problem.
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