RNShaw_951

Hello, I recently purchased an 86 951. I have an idea of what to do, but I am not sure if some things are a good idea.

I want 300+ hp. I want it not to blow up the car...

I checked a few sites, Lindsey Racing being one of them, I have also checked out Huntley Racing.
The items I have decided I am going to purchse, unless I get negative feedback from you guys are the following.
All from <a href="http://www.huntleyracing.com/" target="_blank">http://www.huntleyracing.com/</a>

MAF Kit Stage I

APEXi Super AVC-R
This one is the coolest boost controller I've seen

Dual Flow Waste Gate ( looking for suggestions here )

944 Turbo S/S 3" Cat Bypass Pipe

Nice sounding 3" exhuast to match the above ( need suggestions )

Do I need a perf. Chip with the MAF kit above? it says you don't, I just want to make sure.

Need suggestions on suspension. Although it does handle great, I know it could be better.


Do I need/want a diff. Throttle Body?

I have purchased an HKS SSQV Universal BOV, any suggestions on where I should install it?

Buying some Sparco seats. Any suggestions?
Buying Harnesses any suggestions?
Where do you mount the Harnesses?

Thanks in advance for helping out the noobie Porsche owner, long time german car fanatic.

ian

Tim at speed force racing <a href="http://www.speedforceracing.com" target="_blank">www.speedforceracing.com</a> has a great 3 inch cat back that you should consider.

Well you are going to need a harness bar or a roll bar / cage to mount the harnesses to, I would say to stick to the roll bar becasue ultimately it is much safer.

OG Racing <a href="http://www.ogracing.com" target="_blank">www.ogracing.com</a> has good prices on seats and harnesses. I ran sparco pro 2000's very aggressive for the street, but I loved them, the evo's are not so aggressive and are good seats as well.

It sounds like you are moving in the right direction, how to get the car to 300 hp you are going to hear a lot of responces, but you can do it and it won't be that expensive... but it is a slippery trail, once you start the mods you get addicted

RNShaw_951

Thanks for the advice. What does anyone think about that APEXi digital boost controller? I think it's pretty cool, does a lot of stuff.

Thanks,

ribs

Apexi stuff is pretty cool. I have played a bit with the S-AFC (fuel controller) on a turbo integra and an NX2000 with an SR20-DET S13 swap, and was amazed at how intuitive it was and how much stuff you could control with it. The AVC-R was really cool, too, but I didn't get to mess with it too much. I never really got a clear answer on how effective it would be with a 951, but if it worked I would use it to piggyback as it is far more powerful and cheaper than the couple of application specific f-con piggybacks for our cars. For 300 HP, the cheap and easy way...

$150-$400 - Chips. There are many to choose from...I have autothority chips, and they came with the car. These will get you from 217 HP to around 260 HP and take an hour or two to install. These also remove fuel cut for boosting over 12 PSI or whatever it is and give you a richer fuel curve making other mods safer. See if you can get used chips as they are cheap and not something that you have to worry about not working proerly. Poll the board for their opinions on the best chips...I haven't seen that kind of thread in a while.

$250-$700 - Cat bypass. This will probably get you another 5-20 HP over the chips (much debate on how effective they are) but will make your car louder and make the turbo spool quicker. The cheap ones are made from mild steel and may rust after a period of time, and are usually only 2.5". The expensive ones will last forever and will give you more breathing room if you plan on going with big mods in the future.

$25-$500 - Boost controller. If you are doing a dual port wastegate, I suggest getting a nice electronic boost controller so you can hold boost more accurately. On a stock turbo, you probably won't make more than 300 or 310 at the crank as they can't flow enough air to do more than this. I would be very careful tuning boost, as well. You probably don't want to try to run more than 17 or 18 psi on your stock turbo as anything over that just introduces heat and no additional power. I have a manual boost controller that I cranked up to about 16 psi from the 13 it was running before. I also have chips and a 3" speedforce racing cat back exhaust, cat still in place. If you are cranking boost with any boost controller, you are definitely going to want to get a mechanical boost gauge and an air/fuel meter to go along with it so you don't blow your motor up. You may blow your headgasket if you boost too much without enough fuel.

$250-$400 - dual port wastegate. I would get the tial unit from <a href="http://www.speedforceracing.com" target="_blank">http://www.speedforceracing.com</a> as it is a very nice unit and is pretty cheap. The lindsey wastegate is based on the stock wastegate (it is rebuilt with stiffer springs and dual ports) and has been reputed to still bleed boost, though not nearly as bad as stock. Both are direct boltons.

$50-150? - fuel pressure regulator. You can get a 3 bar unit and have no adjustibility...this is the cheapest, but you may be running rich when not on boost. An adjustible regulator is better, but may still not give you optimum fuel delivery. An adjustible rising rate fuel pressure regulator is the best as it gives more fuel at higher load and will allow you to have closer to stock low end fuel pressure. Some sort of fuel enrichment is a must if you are cranking boost up...you can do higher fuel pressure, injectors, custom software, or a combination. Fuel pressure regulators tend to be the cheapest though.

$50-$150 - Air/fuel and boost gauges. You will definitely need these if you plan on cranking boost so you know exactly what is going on inside your motor. For $50, you can get a VDO boost gauge and a no name air/fuel gauge. For $150, you can get autometer stuff...it depends on what you value (asthetics, value). They will all be just about as accurate. You can get a pillar pod to put them in (this is what I have) from <a href="http://www.lotek.com" target="_blank">http://www.lotek.com</a> for $45 or $50 so they aren't just dangling somewhere. The gauges are cheapest from summit racing.

I imagine with those few mods, you will be around 300 crank HP and will have no problem with running lean and you will be able to keep an eye on whats going on in your motor. All this stuff can be had from $800 to $2300 depending on what exactly you decide to get. The MAF will probably only net you 10 or 15 HP over chips, but as the horsepower rises, it becomes more desireable to get rid of the intake restriction and will make a larger difference when you have a big *** turbo, injectors, etc. You can get a proflow maf (its the basic unit that autothority and lindsey use for their kits...their kits just make it a bolt on) for $600 or so, and you would just have to have the intake elbow and airfilter assembly fabricated for you...this is probably a couple hundred bucks cheaper than getting a kit, but it has not been tested by a company and you may have problems with sensor placement and other things. If I was getting a MAF kit, I would mainly be doing it for the noises you can hear that were blocked before.

Anyways, after that, the sky is the limit. You will need to upgrade the turbo after that to see any real gains. You can go with a MAF and piggyback computers or standalone fuel/spark computers...the later being more expensive and initally much harder to get set up but much more flexible (infinitely flexible, actually) and will net better results in the end. You will probably want to get your head refreshed before doing any big (over 300) HP mods, too, and make sure your bottom end is up to the task (replace the rod bearings at least).

Make sure your car is in very good running order before adding mods! Otherwise, you will be chasing probblems when you should be enjoying your car.

What else...Here is a list of my car related links on my website...you'll find most 951 vendors linked on it: <a href="http://ribs.americainteractive.com/links-cars.htm" target="_blank">http://ribs.americainteractive.com/links-cars.htm</a>

About the blow off valve...you aren't going to have much fun driving your car if it is venting to the atmostphere because you will be running extremely rich between gears and whenever you let off the throttle while boosting...you may even flood and stall your motor. Make sure your BOV can be used as a bypass valve (has a return hose) and mount it where the stock bypass valve goes from the intercooler-to-throttlebody pipe to the intake elbow. If you are going for the sound, I would wait until you do a MAF to do the BOV as you won't hear it well unless you get rid of the stock airbox/air meter. If you want to do open atmosphere venting with your BOV you will need a computer to compensate for the loss of pressure (the apexi S-AFC is the only one I know of that does this) or switch to a standalone fuel/spark computer with a MAP sensor. You will also get oil spraying out whereever the BOV vents to, so keep that in mind.

About the suspension, you can go out, all out, a little nuts, or off the rocker with your set up. If you just want improved handling, replace the stock shocks with new stock shocks. The rears can be replaced with KYB shocks for $27 a piece or so and the fronts can be replaced with stock boge units that are $150 a piece or something around there. If you want to go out on it, keep the stock springs and sways and replace the front struts with the koni inserts (requires you hacking apart your stock shock) for $150 a piece and the rears with some konis for $110 a piece. To go all out, do the shocks/struts previously listed, up the spring rate and torsion bar rate to anything under 450 lb/" on konis and 600 lb/" on bilstein (I have 400#/" on my 951 and its still decent on the street, but it will be much rougher than what you are probably used to) and put on some sways...968 M030's are nice, as are weltmeisters. To go a little nuts, I would do everything listed before with 450#/" or stiffer springs/t-bars, front and rear coilovers, adjustible camber/caster plates, and do all metal and spherical suspension bushings...go ahead and put a strut brace on while you are at it. Going off the rocker entails custom valved racing shocks with a remote resevoir (leda? morris dampers?), coilovera all around with no t-bars in the back with 800#/" springs, adjustible camber plates, charlie a-arms, all the weird metal bushings listed before, huge swaybars, and a mouthguard to wear when driving around the streets so you don't crack your teeth when you go over a bump.

Hope all that helps a little...

tazman

I really like my AVC-R I think it brings the boost on a little quicker. It helps to bring the boost up in the lower gears. The peak hold feature comes in real handy also.

Brian S.

Hey Tazman (Tom)- I have a turbo-s also and was thinking of some chips and a boost controller.....how do you like your set-up??? Did you notice much of an increase in HP???

tazman

[quote]Originally posted by Brian S.:
<strong>Hey Tazman (Tom)- I have a turbo-s also and was thinking of some chips and a boost controller.....how do you like your set-up??? Did you notice much of an increase in HP??? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well Brian the car had the chips in when I got it so I can't really help with the before and after on that. I had a LBE before the AVC-R and that did a pretty good job the boost hit pretty hard. It probably dosen't mean much but I drove a 89 Turbo for a lister and it didn't have the kick mine did but from car to car there are too many variables. I think Adrial should be able to give some better interpitation between stock and chiped since he did the change backwards recently I think.

sean bartsch

the apexi AVC-R boost controller is pretty good. it has alot of features that you might not even use. you can monitor rev, boost, ect. its pretty easy to set up and not to bad to install. its a lot harder that the bleeder valve type of course.the only thing you have to worry about if you get an apexi AVC-R is to keep your eyes on the road and not the cool display

Sean
86 951 tial WG, SFR 3"exhaust, Apexi AVC-R, t04 turbo

sean bartsch

oh yeah, in stead of the maf stage one you might want to look into buying a link AFM. it uses a map sensor instead of a maf sensor. meaning it measures air pressure from the mainfold. then you will have zero restriction to your turbo. it also can be tuned by a computer and a hand held controller. you wont have to upgrade to a diffrent stage of maf if you upgrade your turbo. its good from 200rwhp to whatever rwhp. and its about $700 compared to over $1000. i will be getting one soon. if your interested you should ask superjet.1 about it. he has it set up in his car. and another thing, you would be able to use your HKS BOV if your running a map sensor. no problem to vent to the atmosphere.

Sean
86 951 tial WG, SFR 3"exhaust, Apexi AVC-R, t04 turbo

adrial

Taz, good memory

It is quite a big difference.
With chips and 18psi in 3rd (not my fault!) 2nd was watching the tach spin...without mods it was watching it move over.

I recently made the change back over to chips and boost (although not 18psi...want to run 16 but its dialed in around 13-14 right now waiting for my new boost gauge to replace the old broken one). This time I went with Steve R chips, a 3 bar fuel pressure regulator and a MBC.
I love the MBC, I bypassed the cycling valve and the ability to make full boost at part throttle is awesome!. Steve R says to expect 300RWHP, that is a 60-70 hp increase over stock based on my dyno results. The 3 bar FPR is in fact a rising rate FPR, i forget the ratio...danno just mentioned it in another thread.


Just out of curiosity, when do you turbo S (and 89 turbo) guys see full boost (and in what gear was that)?

RNShaw_951

man you guys have a lot to say!! Thanks a bunch, I will consider all you have said. I'm still a litle corn-fused on the BOV... are you saying I should not bother putting it on, or that I need to run a diff. config to have it on?

My pops and I are gonna enjoy some father - son past time of working on cars tomorrow ( well 10 mins to tomorrow ) so I appreciate any advice you guys are giving. I havent picked up and parts besides the BOV and the Boost enhancer, I do believe I am going to buy the APEXi right away, thanks for the responses. Anymore opinions well be appreciated.

Thanks!!

sean bartsch

good choice on the apexi avc-r. i like it way better than any other boost controller. if your still confused about the BOV ill try to explain as much as i know. our 951s use a recycling valve. its pretty much the same principal as a BOV exept instead of venting to the atmosphere it is plumbed back into the turbo system. our valve is the black thing coming out of the intake boot with the vaccume hose on it. now if you were to hook up that BOV in you car right now it wouldnt even idle. its like a huge air leak. realy the only way you can run a BOV that vents to the atmosphere is with a map sensor. because it measure air inside the intake mainfold. a maf and an afm( what our 951s have) are measured before the turbo.

that sounds about right, i think, maybe someone with more knowledge on this subject can add.

P.S.read some of the old post on this message board and youll get a better understanding of 951s, i didnt know much about them untill i found rennlist and started reading all the post i could and doing stuff under the hood of my car.

Sean
86 951 tial WG, SFR 3"exhaust, Apexi AVC-R, t04 turbo

ribs

I'm a little drunk so if this doesn't make too much sense let me know. About the BOV...like the bypass valve, which is already in your car, is a valve that opens after a sudden stop in throttle to keep the air pressure from rushing the compressor side of the turbo and slowing/stopping the turbo from the cold side, which is bad.

Here is my best explanation to the extent of my understanding which may be a little off since I'm not an engineer.

Think of it like this...you (you are the cold side of the turbo in this analogy) are blowing up an air mattress (the motor) with your mouth and just as you are almost done inflating it somebody jumps on it (sudden lift of throttle/changing gears...it is a pressurization of everything from the turbo to the intake manifold while the engine can't suck the air down quick enough). Without a blow off valve, all of the pressure from the mattress goes back through the tube you were inflating the mattress with (the "tube" from the turbo to the intercooler to the throttle body, which goes into the engine) and will either cause your head to explode, or at least your cheeks to hurt real bad from being hyper inflated (over time, it will cause damage to the impeller and the shaft of the turbo...that is why these cars have a bypass valve built in). If you were blind, def, mute, and lacked the sense of touch (much like your motor) the only way you would know how much air you put into the mattress is if it was metered on its way in (lets just say you suck through a tube and blow into another tube to inflate the mattress, and the tube you suck from is metered and lets out a popcorn scent when you have inflated the mattress or since you can still smell...damn...you are worse off than hellen keller) so if somebody jumps on the mattress the air goes through this bypass valve from the tube for air you already blew into mattress into the tube you are sucking from, but because it was already metered, you will suck it through again and you won't over inflate the mattress.

If you have a "vent to atmosphere" blow off valve installed in your mattress inflating (turbo) system, somebody jumps on your mattress (lifts throttle/changes gears) the air already metered will be vented and not recycled in your system for a blind def mute non-tactile person to know when the mattress is full and you will think the mattress is full because after 1000 inhalations and exhalations the smell of popcorn is released when in actuality some of those 1000 inhales/exhales went to the atmosphere, so you are going to have a limp inflatable mattress (the ECU thinks that 1000 units of air passed through the meter and were consumed by the engine when in actuality less than 1000 were consumed, so it will dump fuel for 1000 units when less air was atually sucked down by the motor, giving you more fuel than necessary, giving you a rich condition).

Reading over what I just wrote, I realize it is kind of whacked but I think if I had my little sister read that she would understand what a BOV does.

So...you want a bypass valve, not a blow off valve, or you run into a rich condition (popcorn odor before the mattress is full) between gears. Some blow off valves can be used as bypass valves as they are essencially the same thing except a bypass valve connects back into the intake system while a blow off valve vents to the atmosphere. Find out if your BOV can have a tube connected so you can route the air back into the intake, and if it can't, save it for a MAP sensor type metering system or return it. I hope that helps...that is the best dumbest analogy I could think of.

The boost enhancer is a boost controller. I used it to crank up my boost. Its a bleed type boost controller, just not mounted in your cabin like most manual boost controllers. It will do absolutely nothing if you get an electronic boost controller like the apexi unit. You might want to send that one back, too, or sell them both on e-bay.

Good luck, and I hope that helps.

Off topic...stupid drunk question. I hooked up with this amazing girl last night, and her pud had this incredibly excellent but potent odor. I have showered twice and did dishes for an hour since then, and my index finger still has the odor...any good household chemicals for getting rid of potent pud odor...I have a girl coming over tomorrow that I sweat and don't want her to think of me as a filanderer, and she is strange and likes to smell stuff.

Duke

[quote]Originally posted by ribs:
<strong>
Off topic...stupid drunk question. I hooked up with this amazing girl last night, and her pud had this incredibly excellent but potent odor. I have showered twice and did dishes for an hour since then, and my index finger still has the odor...any good household chemicals for getting rid of potent pud odor...I have a girl coming over tomorrow that I sweat and don't want her to think of me as a filanderer, and she is strange and likes to smell stuff.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Bones944

tell her it's a new hand cleaner, smells potent 'cause it works sooooooo good <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />