newspeed

Im in the process of resealing my 951 engine and after hours of searching i learned everyone says to stay away from the black rear main seal porsche is currently selling made by Kaco. The seal is size is 90 x 110 x 12. Part number 999-113-426-41

Im having a hard time finding the red/brown color seals from anyone except at paragon. Everyone else only has the black seal.

The BMW e36 uses the exact same dimension seal and is less than half the price. Its made by elring and brownish in color (supposedly made from Viton). BMW part number 11-14-2-245-364. Any reason why this seal would be unsafe to use or not work?

Its not so much the money savings but more of a search for a better seal.

JohnKoaWood

I heard bubble gum also works... no wait, scratch that...

Give it a try and keep us all posted, if it works you just became a pioneer...

If not we can all say "Don't newspeedize it...." your still a pioneer, just has a different feel to it....

Go for it... nothing ventured nothing gained....

newspeed

lol, thanks for the encouraging words.

Im planning on ordering both the black porsche seal and the BMW seal to compare them but from all my research (including the elring spec sheet) it appears to be exactly the same except for the difference in rubber compound (which is spec'ed better for the BMW as it has a higher temp range)

I'll definitely keep you guys posted either way just wanted to ask first. I'm actually surprised nobody else ever looked into it?

newspeed

Btw, as a reference I have already discovered that its cheaper if you buy all the engine seals for the lower block individually as opposed to buying a lower engine gasket set (by almost $50).

KuHL 951

You did your homework and read the black ones have a so-so track record at some point. I did the same and a few years ago and ordered the brown one even though the lower gasket set came with a black seal. You will be so sorry if it leaks and you kick yourself in the butt for using it when you had a choice. Go with the reddish brown type from Paragon. Don't go by looks alone in comparison, it says nothing about the sealing ability or quality of the material. I've used the brown ones on two cars and none have leaked yet. EBS also carries the 'better' seal if Paragon is out of them. Also put some Curil T around the outside of the seal.

newspeed

I do realize how bad it would be to tear it all apart again should it not work so I am doing a lot of research beforehand. I do the labor myself so I am willing to chance it to some extent if I get postive feedback from those with knowledge. I actually sent Elring an email questioning the differences and interchangeability and am awaiting a response.

For those interested elring lists all their seals by dimensions here: http://www.elring.de/en/03en/035_rwd...php?country=en

Porsche seal elring # 311.898:
Inner Diameter: 90 mm, Outer Diameter: 110 mm, Thickness/Strength: 12 mm, Radial Shaft Seal Design: ASW, Swirl Type: Left-hand Twist, Material: FPM / ACM (Polyacrylate), Dust Cover: With dust lip

BMW seal elring # 702.994
Inner Diameter: 90 mm, Outer Diameter: 110 mm, Width: 12 mm, Radial Shaft Seal Design: A/BS, Swirl Type: Left-hand Twist, Material: FPM (Fluoropolymer elastomer/Viton), Dust Cover: With dust lip

944Ross

Well ****, I just ordered a black Kaco from Pelican...

I checked some other sources, stumbled onto this for a Timken/National Seal for the 944; never hurts to have an alternative. National seals have always worked well for me. Not sure how silicone rubber compares to Fluorpolymer or polyacetate.

National Oil Seal:

Part Number: 229010

SEALS/LIP MATERIAL-SILICONE; SHAFT SIZE 3.543 in.; HOUSING BORE 4.331 in.; SEAL O.D. 4.343 in.; SEAL WIDTH .335 in.

This product fits the following vehicles - click on a vehicle to see detailed engine information.

Ford
1984 - 1987 Escort
1984 - 1986 Tempo
1989 - 1992 Probe

Mazda
1984 - 1992 626
1989 - 1993 B2600
1986 - 1987 B2000
1989 - 1994 MPV
1987 - 1993 B2200
1988 - 1992 MX-6

Porsche
1978 - 1998 911
1993 - 1995 928
2001 - 2002 911
1978 - 1979 930
1987 - 1988 924
1983 - 1991 944
1978 - 1991 928
1992 - 1995 968

Toyota
1983 - 1986 Camry
1984 - 1985 Corolla
1986 Celica

Note they don't list any BMW's, so I looked up a '94 BMW 325i; sure enough, it lists the exact same seal.

newspeed

Viton (aka Fluoropolymer elastomer) is vastly superior and much more expensive than silicone. Ask any 3rd-gen RX7 owners (they have over 30 feet of vacuum line and deal with high rotary temps) and they are all switching from silicone tubing over to viton tubing as its proven to be more durable and more resistant to oil deterioration but with a higher price.

Back to the seal subject, further digging reveals Beck/Arnley part number: 0523218 uses the same seal for both Porsche and BMW models.

BMW
1984 - 1985 318I
1993 - 1995 525IT
1991 - 1995 318I
1983 - 1988 528E
1991 - 1992 318IC
1985 - 1993 535I
1994 - 1995 318IC
1988 535IS
1991 - 1995 318IS
1987 - 1989 635CSI
1995 318TI
1987 - 1992 735I
1987 - 1988 325
1988 - 1992 735IL
1984 - 1987 325E
1987 L6
1987 - 1995 325I
1987 L7
1987 - 1995 325IS
1988 - 1991 M3
1988 - 1991 325IX
1988 M5
1985 - 1986 524TD
1991 - 1993 M5
1989 - 1995 525I
1987 - 1988 M6

Porsche
1978 - 1994 911
1993 - 1994 928
1980 - 1982 924
1983 - 1991 944
1987 - 1988 924
1992 - 1994 968
1978 - 1991 928

This is just starting to prove to me that they are in fact interchangeable. I am waiting to hear back from Elring to try to confirm this. I will post their response.

John_AZ

FWIW
Installer error on any seal is the major problem. Like KuHL 951 posted, using Curil T (Pelican $10.75) will seal the RMS against leaks. If you are out of Curit T and want to finish, WD-40 on the outer seal and sprayed in the cavity will also work and it gets gummy after a while to seal better.

The crank surface has to be wiped clean of all leftover grease and dirt.
You have to oil the inner seal and crank surface with a thick oil or the seal will burn out fast.

The seal has to fit to the bottom of the recess. Especially with the Kaco seal. The Kaco seal is smooth on the outer surface half way-this goes in first. The outer half has "ribs". The seal must go to the bottom of the recess "below" the block/casing "bevel".

You can get a professional seal press or go to Home Depot and get a 4" screw in sewer PVC cap. Lightly sand the bottom to smooth rough production edges and cut out the center square portion to fit over the crank end. If you have properly oiled the seal inside and out as mentioned above, it will slide in easily with gentle tapping. The block bevel will let you know if you have a correct 360 degree fit and not have an edge that is "off"

If you are not through, any RMS will leak.

GL
John_AZ

944Ross

So if one goes to a BMW dealer and gets their stock seal, what is it made of? I have a hard time believing Toyota, Ford, BMW, and Porsche are all using an inferior material. In other words, is the seal the problem or is installation the issue?

I'm not sure comparing what's best for hose is a valid comparison. Viton is the best material where gas or gas vapors are present, no question.

ArcticSteve

Sometimes it's best just not to read too much late at night. I did my clutch about a month ago and decided to pull the crank seal even though the motor had only has 35K miles on it. Installed the new seal and really did think about it further until I read this.

Looked at my invoice from 944online and they didn't specify manufacturer, just the number. Thought it was brown, but my memory is crap for that sort of thing. It sometimes pays to be sloppy because I haven't cleaned up the garage just yet. Well there it was ... the empty blue and white Victor Reinz box. So to 944online. Certainly didn't need the Kaco issue.