Steel control arms on a 951?
07-24-2002, 10:34 PM
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Steel control arms on a 951?
I have an '86 951, which has the old offset. When I was ordering a new DME relay, 2 lugnuts, and 2 sunvisor clips from paragon products, I came across this: <a href="http://www.smartcart.com/Paragon/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=PP171.407.153.D" target="_blank">http://www.smartcart.com/Paragon/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=PP171.407.153.D</a> . For $100 + s/h, I could replace both of my front control arms with steel, which should be stronger than aluminum, and from what I have read in a few threads has similar weight (thinner?). From the picture, I don't see ball joints...I imagine these have to be purchased seperately, but I found them for $14 a piece at <a href="http://www.vertexauto.com" target="_blank">vertex auto</a>.
This would be a much cheaper proposition than the alloy control arms, and I wouldn't have a heart attack every time I needed to replace a ball joint since they are $14, not $200.
So...would this work? Would any additional parts need to be sourced to make these old school steel control arms be adapted to my 951? Is this a worthwhile conversion, or am I going in the wrong direction? Should I just suck it up and pay $200 for 1 ball joint, or go this route? TIA,
This would be a much cheaper proposition than the alloy control arms, and I wouldn't have a heart attack every time I needed to replace a ball joint since they are $14, not $200.
So...would this work? Would any additional parts need to be sourced to make these old school steel control arms be adapted to my 951? Is this a worthwhile conversion, or am I going in the wrong direction? Should I just suck it up and pay $200 for 1 ball joint, or go this route? TIA,
07-24-2002, 11:32 PM
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The steel arms will fit on your 951, but they also have their draw backs. The steel arms are two piece (upper and lower). They are riveted together. I have heard of these arms tearing apart (NOT GOOD, can you say BBQ Ribs), especially when a larger sway bar is added. There is someone in Canada I believe (name eludes me) that will reinforce these arms by welding them together.
For additional funds of course.
For additional funds of course.
07-24-2002, 11:50 PM
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Cool stuff...thanks for the replies guys. I called blazzak, and the arms were $240 each. Are these custom fabricated arms, or are they just re-inforced stock steel arms? I have access to a welder and other stuff...I was wondering if I could re-inforce the steel arms myself by welding the two sections together and/or adding other re-inforcements? Has anybody else done this? Any tips? Thanks
07-25-2002, 12:09 AM
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DONE IT!!!!!! I had the same question 8 monthes ago and Skip sent me a awesome pic on the part numbers and torque specs. I would uploaded but I havent figured that out yet. But I will e-mail it to you. As for welding them together, no prob. The construction is such that it creates a very good joint. There is a lip on the stock steel arms and a well rounded joint that creates a lot of surfaces for welding. As for weight guess what they are the within 1/2 lb of each other and at $200 to replace the ball joints verses $13 to replace steel arm ball joints I will take 16oz of weight ANYDAY!!!!!!!!!
07-25-2002, 02:34 AM
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Ribs ; having met Markus Blazak at Hershey and talked to him and saw some of his work I recommend him highly. He is a machine shop capable of doing excellent work and was planning on starting up a boring and sleeving operation also at a product line .He is already known for the control arm rebuilds. <a href="http://www.geocities.com/blazack_precision." target="_blank">www.geocities.com/blazack_precision.</a>
613-353-7012.
613-353-7012.
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07-25-2002, 05:48 AM
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Thanks a ton guys! I really apreciate it...it will save me money I don't have. My friend with the shop said he will help me with the welding and re-inforcement, so I should have that covered. Thanks especially to dan (bron951) for the e-mail...it was exactly what I was looking for. Here is the attachment with the instructions and part numbers that he sent, for all to read in case you were interested:
- Arms (x2) 171.407.153D
- Ball joints (x2) 171.407.365G
- Bushing, front (x2) 171.407.182D
- Bushing, rear (x2) 477.407.181A
- Bushing clip, rear (x2) 477.407.169
- Bolts, ball joint (x6) M7 x 20
- lock washers (x6) A7
- nuts (x6) M7
The bushing clip may have to be sourced from a dismantler. The bolts and such can be sourced from a hardware store (grade 8 or better) and you can use nylock nuts (I did). You can use the existing hardware for the A-arm mounting to chassis points.
Removal
1. Raise side of car that you will be working on with a floor jack; if you are changing both arms, raise front of car. In either case, secure with properly rated, good quality jack stands. Also utilize the correct jack points (refer to owners manual). Emergency brake on, rear wheels blocked and negative terminal disconnected from battery. (Better safe than dead!)
2. Remove wheel(s).
3. Remove bottom engine cover trays. On cars with a single plastic tray, you will have to remove six to eight M6 bolts with a 10 mm socket and ratchet. On the 944 Turbo and S2, there are auxiliary trays held on with philips head fasteners.
4. Mark with scribe or paint pen the caster eccentric bolt alignment to arm (rear of control arm), and rear control arm bushing assembly alignment to chassis. It may be necessary to replace this bushing assembly; check for wear and rubber deterioration. It is important that this eccentric bolt is marked prior to removal for proper caster alignment. This does not guarantee that the alignment will not change, there will be different tolerances upon assembly (new parts bushings etc.).
5. The following is a list of fasteners that will be removed during this procedure:
a. Sway bar clamp nuts/bolts (2)
b. Sway bar bushing assembly nut/bolt/rubber bushings(2)/washers(2)(center of A-arm).
c. Pinch bolt and nut on bottom of spindle (secures ball joint shaft to spindle).
d. Front control arm nut/bolt (attaches front of control arm to bottom of cross member).
e. Rear control arm bushing mount assembly/bolts(2)/washers(2) (attached to chassis)
f. Eccentric rear control arm bolt/nut/washer (connects control arm to rear control arm bushing mount.
6. Remove bolt/nut from bottom of spindle/strut.
7. Remove bolts(2)/nuts(2) from sway bar clamp bracket.
8. Remove nut/washer/bushing from top of sway bar bushing assembly, tap bolt out from top of a arm, remove lower washer/bushing and bolt. Check these bushings for wear and rubber deterioration, and if in doubt, replace them. If you do this, I
If you are removing the rear bushing mount from the eccentric bolt, make sure the eccentric bolt center is marked in relation to the rear of the arm! You will transfer this mark to the new arm. Remove both nuts from eccentric and mount, remove from arm.
9. With a rubber/plastic mallet tap the outer end of the control arm so that the ball joint spud comes out of the bottom of the spindle/strut assembly.
10. Control arm should now be free. Remove it from the car.
I know I am making a big deal concerning the eccentric and it seems confusing, but it will all come together when you actually see how it works.
11. would replace all the bushings at the same time.
12. Remove front control arm bolt/washer/nut from cross member. This bolt is rather long, the steering tie rod/spindle assembly must be moved in order to slide the bolt out. Don’t worry there is plenty of play here. Tap on bolt to get it started, it may have to be tapped through while moving the arm side to side.
13. Remove rear control arm bushing mount bolts(2)/washers(2)
14. Discard the the lock nuts that you have removed.
If you are not replacing the rear bushing mount assembly it is only necessary to remove the front most nut/washer of the rear part of the control arm. You can then transfer this assembly to the new control arm without moving the eccentric bolt position, relative to the bushing/bearing mount.
15.
Installation
All lock nuts must be replaced. The lock nuts are not reusable! Use anti-seize on the bolts, thus preventing future problems with stuck nuts.
1. Transfer scribe mark from old a-arm to replacement arm. This part is not necessary if you did not replace the rear bushing mount.
2. Attach eccentric bolt/bushing mount to rear of new/rebuilt control arm, depending on what you removed. Align scribe marks of eccentric to arm, replace with new nuts and torque to spec, making sure that marks stay aligned!
3. Place arm in position, fitting front arm bushing in cross member.
4. Align bolt holes and replace bolt/washers/nut.
5. Attach rear bushing mount with bolts/washers to chassis; align to scribe marks, torque to spec.
6. Position ball joint spud so it fits into bottom of spindle assembly, making sure that spud is pushed up all the way. Replace bolt and nut.
7. Attach sway bar bushing mount into control arm, replace with new lock nut.
8. Attach sway bar bushing clip to chassis bracket. The shock may have to be depressed in order to align the bolt holes. I used the jack to depress the control arm/strut. Replace bolts and new lock nuts.
9. Once sway bar mounts are positioned correctly, torque all lock nuts to specs.
10. Replace wheel. Tighten nuts in a star pattern in order to attach wheel properly.
11. Torque all nuts to spec. (see below)
12. Check all work for mistakes, and those extra fasteners; where did they go?
13. Lower car, remove rear tire blocks, and enjoy those new control arms.
14. Test drive car. How does it feel? If you followed this procedure carefully, you will probably not experience any alignment problems. When you replace your tires you can have an alignment shop check the front out and make sure it is in spec. Make sure that you use a reputable shop that is familiar with Porsches, especially 944’s. Just because a shop has a lot of money invested in equipment does not automatically make them qualified to do work on Porsches. This is one of the reasons that I do as much work as possible on my Porsche; very few mechanics will take the time and care that is required to maintain your car properly, like you would.
15. Pat yourself on the back; you did that yourself!
Torque Specifications
Location Thread Tightening Torque
Control arm to cross member, lock nut M12 x 1.5 mm 48 ftlb, 65 Nm
Control arm bearing assembly (caster eccentric) to body, bolt M10 34 ftlb, 46 Nm
Control arm bearing to control arm, lock nut VM12 x 1.5 74 ftlb, 100 Nm
Clamp for stabilizer (sway bar), lock nut M8 17 ftlb, 23 Nm
Stabilizer linkage to control arm, lock nut M10 18 ftlb, 24 Nm
Control arm ball joint to steering knuckle, lock nut M10 37 ftlb, 50 Nm
Light alloy wheel to hub, lug nut M14 96 ftlb, 130 Nm
Note that the torque spec for the control arm bearing assembly to the control arm is for the updated VM12 x 1.5 lock nuts. The older style M12 x 1.5 lock nuts were torqued to 63 ftlb, 85 Nm.
Helpful tips:
If you ordered the arms from us, you will not need the front bushing (171.407.182D) - they come preinstalled to the steel arms. The rear clip must be sourced used from a dismantler - I will be gathering up a bunch of these soon to draw from our own stock, maybe a month out on that though. The M7 bolts and nuts for the ball joints are in reference to the size being 7mm. These can be very hard to find locally, so I recommend folks use either 8mm or 5/16" hardware instead (bolts should be ~20mm or 3/4" thread length) and use nylock or crimped lock nuts.
Installation is fairly straight forward - there are a couple of hints:
- the rear bushing supplied on the arms we carry must be removed, and the correct part installed. The rubber bushing uses a metal collar - this collar is a pressure fit to the rear mounting rod... it should not rotate freely. You must carefully compensate for the appropriate angle that the car will be at rest - to properly set the rear bushing in place... a mistake here may mean you have to cut off or ruin the bushing to relocate - experiences vary.
- the front mounting between the tangs of the aluminum chassis crossmember is a bit off from that of the original unit. This may require the use of at least one thick washer (A12 - 12mm) on either side of the rubber bushing... it's a tight fit, but it does work.
- caster settings are now accomplished only by movement of the rear bushing block - there is no more caster eccentric tab as before.
- an alignment will be needed
- *** IMPORTANT****
- one thing that Skip didn’t mention is that when you do this swap you will have to find a way to re-mount the sway bar. Basically you have 3 choices: buy the older style sway bar mount, stick the drop link for the sway bar through the hole in the control arm, or weld it together. I elected to buy the older style sway bar mount. I also got this from Part Heaven.
This will save me a good deal of money, take a little more time initally, but save me lots of money and time in the future. This is why this list is so great. Thanks again!
- Arms (x2) 171.407.153D
- Ball joints (x2) 171.407.365G
- Bushing, front (x2) 171.407.182D
- Bushing, rear (x2) 477.407.181A
- Bushing clip, rear (x2) 477.407.169
- Bolts, ball joint (x6) M7 x 20
- lock washers (x6) A7
- nuts (x6) M7
The bushing clip may have to be sourced from a dismantler. The bolts and such can be sourced from a hardware store (grade 8 or better) and you can use nylock nuts (I did). You can use the existing hardware for the A-arm mounting to chassis points.
Removal
1. Raise side of car that you will be working on with a floor jack; if you are changing both arms, raise front of car. In either case, secure with properly rated, good quality jack stands. Also utilize the correct jack points (refer to owners manual). Emergency brake on, rear wheels blocked and negative terminal disconnected from battery. (Better safe than dead!)
2. Remove wheel(s).
3. Remove bottom engine cover trays. On cars with a single plastic tray, you will have to remove six to eight M6 bolts with a 10 mm socket and ratchet. On the 944 Turbo and S2, there are auxiliary trays held on with philips head fasteners.
4. Mark with scribe or paint pen the caster eccentric bolt alignment to arm (rear of control arm), and rear control arm bushing assembly alignment to chassis. It may be necessary to replace this bushing assembly; check for wear and rubber deterioration. It is important that this eccentric bolt is marked prior to removal for proper caster alignment. This does not guarantee that the alignment will not change, there will be different tolerances upon assembly (new parts bushings etc.).
5. The following is a list of fasteners that will be removed during this procedure:
a. Sway bar clamp nuts/bolts (2)
b. Sway bar bushing assembly nut/bolt/rubber bushings(2)/washers(2)(center of A-arm).
c. Pinch bolt and nut on bottom of spindle (secures ball joint shaft to spindle).
d. Front control arm nut/bolt (attaches front of control arm to bottom of cross member).
e. Rear control arm bushing mount assembly/bolts(2)/washers(2) (attached to chassis)
f. Eccentric rear control arm bolt/nut/washer (connects control arm to rear control arm bushing mount.
6. Remove bolt/nut from bottom of spindle/strut.
7. Remove bolts(2)/nuts(2) from sway bar clamp bracket.
8. Remove nut/washer/bushing from top of sway bar bushing assembly, tap bolt out from top of a arm, remove lower washer/bushing and bolt. Check these bushings for wear and rubber deterioration, and if in doubt, replace them. If you do this, I
If you are removing the rear bushing mount from the eccentric bolt, make sure the eccentric bolt center is marked in relation to the rear of the arm! You will transfer this mark to the new arm. Remove both nuts from eccentric and mount, remove from arm.
9. With a rubber/plastic mallet tap the outer end of the control arm so that the ball joint spud comes out of the bottom of the spindle/strut assembly.
10. Control arm should now be free. Remove it from the car.
I know I am making a big deal concerning the eccentric and it seems confusing, but it will all come together when you actually see how it works.
11. would replace all the bushings at the same time.
12. Remove front control arm bolt/washer/nut from cross member. This bolt is rather long, the steering tie rod/spindle assembly must be moved in order to slide the bolt out. Don’t worry there is plenty of play here. Tap on bolt to get it started, it may have to be tapped through while moving the arm side to side.
13. Remove rear control arm bushing mount bolts(2)/washers(2)
14. Discard the the lock nuts that you have removed.
If you are not replacing the rear bushing mount assembly it is only necessary to remove the front most nut/washer of the rear part of the control arm. You can then transfer this assembly to the new control arm without moving the eccentric bolt position, relative to the bushing/bearing mount.
15.
Installation
All lock nuts must be replaced. The lock nuts are not reusable! Use anti-seize on the bolts, thus preventing future problems with stuck nuts.
1. Transfer scribe mark from old a-arm to replacement arm. This part is not necessary if you did not replace the rear bushing mount.
2. Attach eccentric bolt/bushing mount to rear of new/rebuilt control arm, depending on what you removed. Align scribe marks of eccentric to arm, replace with new nuts and torque to spec, making sure that marks stay aligned!
3. Place arm in position, fitting front arm bushing in cross member.
4. Align bolt holes and replace bolt/washers/nut.
5. Attach rear bushing mount with bolts/washers to chassis; align to scribe marks, torque to spec.
6. Position ball joint spud so it fits into bottom of spindle assembly, making sure that spud is pushed up all the way. Replace bolt and nut.
7. Attach sway bar bushing mount into control arm, replace with new lock nut.
8. Attach sway bar bushing clip to chassis bracket. The shock may have to be depressed in order to align the bolt holes. I used the jack to depress the control arm/strut. Replace bolts and new lock nuts.
9. Once sway bar mounts are positioned correctly, torque all lock nuts to specs.
10. Replace wheel. Tighten nuts in a star pattern in order to attach wheel properly.
11. Torque all nuts to spec. (see below)
12. Check all work for mistakes, and those extra fasteners; where did they go?
13. Lower car, remove rear tire blocks, and enjoy those new control arms.
14. Test drive car. How does it feel? If you followed this procedure carefully, you will probably not experience any alignment problems. When you replace your tires you can have an alignment shop check the front out and make sure it is in spec. Make sure that you use a reputable shop that is familiar with Porsches, especially 944’s. Just because a shop has a lot of money invested in equipment does not automatically make them qualified to do work on Porsches. This is one of the reasons that I do as much work as possible on my Porsche; very few mechanics will take the time and care that is required to maintain your car properly, like you would.
15. Pat yourself on the back; you did that yourself!
Torque Specifications
Location Thread Tightening Torque
Control arm to cross member, lock nut M12 x 1.5 mm 48 ftlb, 65 Nm
Control arm bearing assembly (caster eccentric) to body, bolt M10 34 ftlb, 46 Nm
Control arm bearing to control arm, lock nut VM12 x 1.5 74 ftlb, 100 Nm
Clamp for stabilizer (sway bar), lock nut M8 17 ftlb, 23 Nm
Stabilizer linkage to control arm, lock nut M10 18 ftlb, 24 Nm
Control arm ball joint to steering knuckle, lock nut M10 37 ftlb, 50 Nm
Light alloy wheel to hub, lug nut M14 96 ftlb, 130 Nm
Note that the torque spec for the control arm bearing assembly to the control arm is for the updated VM12 x 1.5 lock nuts. The older style M12 x 1.5 lock nuts were torqued to 63 ftlb, 85 Nm.
Helpful tips:
If you ordered the arms from us, you will not need the front bushing (171.407.182D) - they come preinstalled to the steel arms. The rear clip must be sourced used from a dismantler - I will be gathering up a bunch of these soon to draw from our own stock, maybe a month out on that though. The M7 bolts and nuts for the ball joints are in reference to the size being 7mm. These can be very hard to find locally, so I recommend folks use either 8mm or 5/16" hardware instead (bolts should be ~20mm or 3/4" thread length) and use nylock or crimped lock nuts.
Installation is fairly straight forward - there are a couple of hints:
- the rear bushing supplied on the arms we carry must be removed, and the correct part installed. The rubber bushing uses a metal collar - this collar is a pressure fit to the rear mounting rod... it should not rotate freely. You must carefully compensate for the appropriate angle that the car will be at rest - to properly set the rear bushing in place... a mistake here may mean you have to cut off or ruin the bushing to relocate - experiences vary.
- the front mounting between the tangs of the aluminum chassis crossmember is a bit off from that of the original unit. This may require the use of at least one thick washer (A12 - 12mm) on either side of the rubber bushing... it's a tight fit, but it does work.
- caster settings are now accomplished only by movement of the rear bushing block - there is no more caster eccentric tab as before.
- an alignment will be needed
- *** IMPORTANT****
- one thing that Skip didn’t mention is that when you do this swap you will have to find a way to re-mount the sway bar. Basically you have 3 choices: buy the older style sway bar mount, stick the drop link for the sway bar through the hole in the control arm, or weld it together. I elected to buy the older style sway bar mount. I also got this from Part Heaven.
This will save me a good deal of money, take a little more time initally, but save me lots of money and time in the future. This is why this list is so great. Thanks again!
07-25-2002, 11:48 AM
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Just a couple of points on the steel arms -
I haven't seen any that have the upper and lower stampings held together with rivets - all the ones I've seen are spot welded. The factory-installed ball joints are secured by rivets, but that's really not what holds the arm together.
The need for reinforcement depends on a couple of things. I don't think there is any need at all for it for a street car, the loads just aren't that high. I think it's necessary for cars that will be tracked, and probably for autocross cars as well.
When these arms break, they tend to crack fore-and-aft across the arm where the swaybar attaches, obviously as a result of the bending moment applied by the swaybar. The stiffer the bar, the more likely there will be a problem. Also, it is often overlooked, but the worst combination is a stiff bar and soft (stock) springs - that combination puts a much greater load on the bar, and on the centers of the control arms.
Any decent welding shop can fabricate and weld reinforcement along the leading and trailing edges. I think I paid about $50 per arm to get it done, and they've held up through a lot of punishment. Don't forget to wirebrush and paint them before installation.
Matt
I haven't seen any that have the upper and lower stampings held together with rivets - all the ones I've seen are spot welded. The factory-installed ball joints are secured by rivets, but that's really not what holds the arm together.
The need for reinforcement depends on a couple of things. I don't think there is any need at all for it for a street car, the loads just aren't that high. I think it's necessary for cars that will be tracked, and probably for autocross cars as well.
When these arms break, they tend to crack fore-and-aft across the arm where the swaybar attaches, obviously as a result of the bending moment applied by the swaybar. The stiffer the bar, the more likely there will be a problem. Also, it is often overlooked, but the worst combination is a stiff bar and soft (stock) springs - that combination puts a much greater load on the bar, and on the centers of the control arms.
Any decent welding shop can fabricate and weld reinforcement along the leading and trailing edges. I think I paid about $50 per arm to get it done, and they've held up through a lot of punishment. Don't forget to wirebrush and paint them before installation.
Matt
07-25-2002, 12:54 PM
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ribs - no problem...but i can only take credit for sending you the email. the info was put together from various emails sent to me - so props should go out to Jason(autoXdriver?)and skip for sharing it.
thuber- i don't see why this can't be done on an 85.5 n/a...but i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong.
matt- good idea about painting them...too bad i didn't think of that before installing them.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
thuber- i don't see why this can't be done on an 85.5 n/a...but i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong.
matt- good idea about painting them...too bad i didn't think of that before installing them.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
07-25-2002, 02:03 PM
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I posted a request yesterday for the info on how they should be reinforced. I have access to a fabrication shop and was going to buy a new set and reinforce them as well as rebuild the front suspension. I am willing to redo a few extras if anyone is in need. So if you have some pictures or info it would be much appreciated.
07-25-2002, 03:22 PM
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Some people have done more elaborate reinforcements than this, but the following has worked very well for me, and seems to be all that is really needed (others, feel free to disagree...)
Along the front and rear edges of each arm, weld a length of 1/8" steel stock of a width equal to the overall thickness of the the control arm. Make a continuous bead the whole length of each reinforcing piece, top and bottom. This effectively boxes the channel that exists between the upper and lower sections of the arm.
This does two things - it ties together the two stampings that the arm consists of, and it provides a very stiff resistance to the bending I described in the post above, because any bending moment is trying to bend the reinforcing piece "the hard way", across its width.
Matt
Along the front and rear edges of each arm, weld a length of 1/8" steel stock of a width equal to the overall thickness of the the control arm. Make a continuous bead the whole length of each reinforcing piece, top and bottom. This effectively boxes the channel that exists between the upper and lower sections of the arm.
This does two things - it ties together the two stampings that the arm consists of, and it provides a very stiff resistance to the bending I described in the post above, because any bending moment is trying to bend the reinforcing piece "the hard way", across its width.
Matt
07-25-2002, 04:38 PM
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Thanks again guys! Re-inforcing these a-arms should be no problem...it sounds pretty straight foward. Now I have to check my account balance to make sure I have $100 some odd dollars so I can start ordering all of this stuff.