ribs

Water944t,
[rant]Ummm...I don't understand why some people are so piously opposed to drag racing on this board. It seems to me like a way for them to self-rationalize the fact that their car is slow . I also don't understand why you should pass judgement or even care about how somebody else uses their car so long as they don't risk the lives of others...running a 951 on a dirt-covered circle track? I'll pay money to see that. Donut competitions? Bring it on. Running 1/4 miles? I'm guilty myself. I can think of a hundred reasons to run your car up at the 1/4 mile strip and none not to. Not everybody lives within reasonable driving distance of a road course, not everybody has the money to track their car, autocrosses only happen every few weeks around me and turbo lag kills my chances of being competitive, drag racing costs $10 and you can run your car all night long, its fun, it is a sure fire way to gauge engine mods and some chassis mods, it will help you learn to launch your car perfectly to gain the edge in a wheel to wheel road race, you get to meet a lot of "interesting" people while waiting for your lane to cue up to the lights, its the cheapest way to go over 100 miles an hour legally, its cool to see cars that are faster than an F/18 in a 1/4 mile, its fun to stomp rice boys, its cool to see tractor trailers that will run a 1320 faster than your car, its not everybody's cup of tea but then again your interests don't appeal to everybody either...I don't see anybody cutting you down when you talk about whatever, so why not show some respect. Your opinions were noted but there is no need to cut somebody down for not sharing them with you.[/rant]

BTW, sweet f'ing car! That is one unique S2...I am really interested in seeing the dyno sheets as I would like to know how the torque curve compares to stock. I imagine on a 3L 4 banger that breathes well it would react to a centrifugal blower simlarly to a V8.

BTW, my best 1/4 mile time was a 14.02 @102 MPH, with a 2.4 second 60'. I was having trouble getting it to hook up...I think I am going to run it again in a couple of weeks (its been about a year)...maybe after I get the clunking in the front suspenion fixed (I'm pretty sure its the right control arm as everything else in the suspension is new except that control arm, the drop links, and the swaybar). I also cranked the boost up 3.5 psi a couple of weeks ago (it pegs out at a little over 16 psi in 4th gear now), so I should be running a mid 13 if I have a good take off.

Water944t

I wasnt really wanting to hurt anyones feelings.

I just think that 1/4 times are really overblown for one thing, due to the inherent lack of precision in timing. For another, our cars, and many like them are not well suited to hard launches.

If you think 1/4 mile times at a track are accurate, just read a few threads about them, like the one where the guy with the new 2003 Cobra ran 118, only that isnt possible with his car, unless the track was incorrectly calibrated, or he got the all-time best ever "ringer" car. Cause he needs about 100 more horsies to do that than his car is rated from the factory at.

I think more accurate would be lap times on a course you were familiar with(impractical for many), or even autoX times(easier to get, but you would need pre-mod times to compare). What kind of usable HP did your mod make. Does your car perform at a consistently higher level?

Sorry to ruffle your asshairs. But the only time you really ever drive in real life like you would for a 1/4 mile time is when you are being a dumbass and street racing, or you were thrashing your axles at a drag strip. I normally drive in the real world, where 60-100 and 80-0 times matter most. Not to mention most people buy 944 series cars for their handling characteristics.

I think it is provable that a 944/951 in stock form, amkes more horsepower than 80% of the listers on this board can handle with skill, myself included. How many of us can truly claim to be masters of trail-braking and throttle steer, to be able to navigate a chicane at 90MPH, then drift into a long straight. I mean truly claim without your ego involved. I am not saying that anyone is a poor driver, it just a different class of skills. The difference between turning a decent time at the track, and a competitive time.

It takes practice and more practice to become skilled at handling a performance car like a 944. And normal roads and highways simple cant legally support the learning of these skills. drag strips dont even come close to measuring a car like these. By the time the car gets breathing well, you have to slow down...

and I never said your mod was bad, or that mods in general are good or bad, I think that the threads on this board point to the truth. Mods are good if you want power, bad if you want reliability. I hope that the SFR SC is pure magic, that the owners have excellent success with it. It seems pretty damn cool.

My point was that Porsches arent drag racers. It puts strains on them they do not respond well to, historically. It seems foolish to me to intentionally do something you know is not good for your car. Why not drop the same cash into a month at Skip Barber? You would never be the same, and you would probably 0wn your local AX club.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Water944t

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ribs:
[QB]Water944t,
[rant]Ummm...I don't understand why some people are so piously opposed to drag racing on this board. It seems to me like a way for them to self-rationalize the fact that their car is slow . I also don't understand why you should pass judgement or even care about how somebody else uses their car so long as they don't risk the lives of others...running a 951 on a dirt-covered circle track? I'll pay money to see that. Donut competitions? Bring it on. Running 1/4 miles? I'm guilty myself. I can think of a hundred reasons to run your car up at the 1/4 mile strip and none not to. Not everybody lives within reasonable driving distance of a road course, not everybody has the money to track their car, autocrosses only happen every few weeks around me and turbo lag kills my chances of being competitive, drag racing costs $10 and you can run your car all night long, its fun, it is a sure fire way to gauge engine mods and some chassis mods, it will help you learn to launch your car perfectly to gain the edge in a wheel to wheel road race, you get to meet a lot of "interesting" people while waiting for your lane to cue up to the lights, its the cheapest way to go over 100 miles an hour legally, its cool to see cars that are faster than an F/18 in a 1/4 mile, its fun to stomp rice boys, its cool to see tractor trailers that will run a 1320 faster than your car, its not everybody's cup of tea but then again your interests don't appeal to everybody either...I don't see anybody cutting you down when you talk about whatever, so why not show some respect. Your opinions were noted but there is no need to cut somebody down for not sharing them with you.[/rant]

I never said drag racing was bad or wrong.

I simply said that drag racing 944's was wrong, an opinion I believe I can support with empirical evidence. I DID say that drag racing could be accomplished both well and cheaply with good old American Iron. It is also a provable fact. I will be suprememly surprised if the SFR SC car can break 12 seconds. I hope they do. I still stand by my statement that I could go faster in the 1/4 for the price of the SC alone by going Iron.

I certainly enjoyed your rant, however misinformed you might have been. Maybe a more thorough reading of the post would have cleared it up.

I too enjoy watching and participating in drag racing. I have even street raced, much to my current shame. I would not do it now. But I do like to see fast cars in any forum other than the street.

My comments pertained solely to the suitability of the 944/951 and some import FWD cars to hard launch drag racing. I also see little use in measuring a car designed to corner on a stratigh track. I do approve of "roll-on" racing, as it is much more suited to the 944.

My opinion is worth what you paid for it.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

ribs

[quote]Originally posted by Water944t:
<strong>I wasnt really wanting to hurt anyones feelings.</strong>

Good...I suppose you came off wrong

<strong>
I just think that 1/4 times are really overblown for one thing, due to the inherent lack of precision in timing. For another, our cars, and many like them are not well suited to hard launches.</strong>

Ummm...C(r)apital Raceway, my local drag strip, supports cars down to 7 seconds, uses a 20 year old timing system, and is generally accepted as being accurate. They calibrate the traps often. The timing is pretty much impossible to mess up. Any decent drag strip will have more accuracy in trap speeds than most anybody will need.

<strong>
If you think 1/4 mile times at a track are accurate, just read a few threads about them, like the one where the guy with the new 2003 Cobra ran 118, only that isnt possible with his car, unless the track was incorrectly calibrated, or he got the all-time best ever "ringer" car. Cause he needs about 100 more horsies to do that than his car is rated from the factory at.</strong>

Sounds like a case of a miscalibrated trap to me! Tuning a radar trap involves tuning forks that if mishandled by some 17 yearold track worker making peanuts can become inaccurate and give wild trap speeds like that. **** happens.

<strong>
I think more accurate would be lap times on a course you were familiar with(impractical for many), or even autoX times(easier to get, but you would need pre-mod times to compare). What kind of usable HP did your mod make. Does your car perform at a consistently higher level?</strong>

Track times and autocross times effectively gauge all systems of your car while drag strips gauge your drivetrain (and tires, rear suspension set up, etc.), so why run a decathalon when all you are interested in is how fast you can run a hundred meters in? Autocrossing is not a good way to gauge power at all...maybe power delivery, but not power since you probably won't get out of 2nd gear. Autocross and track times are going to vary more wildly with differing conditions (heat, wind, rain, etc.) than 1/4 mile times since seeing how fast you can go straight is all you are interested in. BTW, I haven't done that many autocrosses, but how many have you been to that have been set up indentically the next day you went there? Would you be able to swap in a big *** turbo, injectors, etc., tune it, and return for the 3rd heat of your autocross? Probably not. You can go back to the drag strip the next friday though. I personally think that a much better measure of drivetrain performance for our cars at least is 60-100 times, but where can you do these legally, safely, and accurately? You can rent out a track...


<strong>Sorry to ruffle your asshairs. But the only time you really ever drive in real life like you would for a 1/4 mile time is when you are being a dumbass and street racing, or you were thrashing your axles at a drag strip. I normally drive in the real world, where 60-100 and 80-0 times matter most. Not to mention most people buy 944 series cars for their handling characteristics.
</strong>

I'll gun it from a stop light from time to time if no one else is around...does that make me a dumbass? I'll stop accererating at 60 or 70...it sounds like 60-100 is a little more dangerous, and more like highway racing. Axles aren't too expensive for these cars, and I haven't thrashed one yet. About handling characteristics...I was a bit underwhelmed by my sagging 17 year old suspension, so I replaced it with something that would be bearable on the streets but usable on the track. I still haven't gotten the whole thing set up yet (I need to put the t-bars in) so the jury is still out on this one, but I have a feeling I may be a little let down from my expectations after driving it around fully dampered but only stiffened in the front. I drove a twin turbo rx-7 with the r1 package and slightly stiffer than stock springs hard through some twisties a while back, and it would have run circles around my 951 in its previous state...rx-7's have a newer, better suspension design, and I feel that even with my upgraded suspension I would not have been able to hang with that car. 944 series cars handle good, but there are much better handlers out there. They are easy to push at the edge...I think thats why most people like them, but there are cars that if learned how to drive will be much more potent. Thats my take on it anyways.

<strong>
I think it is provable that a 944/951 in stock form, amkes more horsepower than 80% of the listers on this board can handle with skill, myself included.</strong>

I can handle all of that HP in a straight line . Through some turns...there in lies the rub.

<strong>
How many of us can truly claim to be masters of trail-braking and throttle steer, to be able to navigate a chicane at 90MPH, then drift into a long straight. I mean truly claim without your ego involved. I am not saying that anyone is a poor driver, it just a different class of skills. The difference between turning a decent time at the track, and a competitive time.
</strong>

Not me! Thats why I am going to take some driver's eds later this summer and hopefully get qualified to be able to run open track time some time next year. This is also why I spent a load of money to set up my suspension.

<strong>
It takes practice and more practice to become skilled at handling a performance car like a 944. And normal roads and highways simple cant legally support the learning of these skills. drag strips dont even come close to measuring a car like these. By the time the car gets breathing well, you have to slow down...</strong>

1st sentance...couldn't agree more. 2nd sentance, ditto. 3rd sentance...why do you keep trying to dictate how people should use their cars? Nobody ever said that drag racing is the ultimate measure of an automobile...especially a porsche. It is merely one of a mirad of tests and skills that can be measured, practiced, and used on these fine automobiles. It also happens to be the truest roadgoing test of your drivetrain. If you can convince me otherwise, please do. 4th sentance...everybody has to slow down after 1/4 of a mile...thats the point...to see what your car can do over a standard distance so you can gauge it against itself and other cars if you are into that kind of thing.

<strong>
and I never said your mod was bad, or that mods in general are good or bad, I think that the threads on this board point to the truth. Mods are good if you want power, bad if you want reliability. I hope that the SFR SC is pure magic, that the owners have excellent success with it. It seems pretty damn cool. </strong>

No qualms with this...better see what Exotic HorsePower thinks of this...

<strong>
My point was that Porsches arent drag racers. It puts strains on them they do not respond well to, historically. It seems foolish to me to intentionally do something you know is not good for your car. Why not drop the same cash into a month at Skip Barber? You would never be the same, and you would probably 0wn your local AX club.</strong>

Your point is noted. RX-7's aren't drag racers either but people run 8 second 1/4 miles on real rx-7's (not tube frame funny cars). My point...don't drag race YOUR 951. Don't tell other people what to do with theirs unless you feel they are irresponsibly risking the lives of others. If you feel they are going to blow their cars up, a single warning is fine, but harping is not. I don't know what you mean by not responding well...I have heard of people snapping axles when trying to do burnouts and other stuff that causes a total shock to your drivetrain, but never drag racing. If you take off correctly, you will not do anything worse than shave off a few nanometers off of your clutch and the same off of your tires. People who snap axles either don't know how to drive, are intentionally abusing their cars, or are running way too much power for their drivetrain.

<strong>
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> right back at you. Its good to have civil conversation and not sling mud (I hope you took my response as such anyways).

Water944t

I never said anyone had to follow my orders, I havent barked an order in more than 10 years. (Kids dont count.)

I was just making a case for my opinion, one which I still believe I can support with factual data. Drag racing Porsche's is in general a bad idea. As i said once before:

It's like making Baryshnikov county line dance, sure he can do it, but its a horrible waste of talent.

[quote]
I just think that 1/4 times are really overblown for one thing, due to the inherent lack of precision in timing. For another, our cars, and many like them are not well suited to hard launches.

Ummm...C(r)apital Raceway, my local drag strip, supports cars down to 7 seconds, uses a 20 year old timing system, and is generally accepted as being accurate. They calibrate the traps often. The timing is pretty much impossible to mess up. Any decent drag strip will have more accuracy in trap speeds than most anybody will need.


If you think 1/4 mile times at a track are accurate, just read a few threads about them, like the one where the guy with the new 2003 Cobra ran 118, only that isnt possible with his car, unless the track was incorrectly calibrated, or he got the all-time best ever "ringer" car. Cause he needs about 100 more horsies to do that than his car is rated from the factory at.

Sounds like a case of a miscalibrated trap to me! Tuning a radar trap involves tuning forks that if mishandled by some 17 yearold track worker making peanuts can become inaccurate and give wild trap speeds like that. **** happens.
<hr></blockquote>

Dont these two statements contradict each other? In one, you tell me about how your local track is accurate, and in the next you tell me about how common and easy it is for tracks to be unreliable. How do you tell the difference without timing equipment of your own?


[quote]It also happens to be the truest roadgoing test of your drivetrain. If you can convince me otherwise, please do. 4th sentance...everybody has to slow down after 1/4 of a mile...thats the point...<hr></blockquote>

I agree that is a point of drag racing. To run your engine as hard as you possible can, for 10-20 seconds. I cannot conceed that point. There is no arguement that you could bring that will convince me of the theraputic or performance enhancing properties of blasting the crap out of your engine for incredibly short periods. All of the knowledge I have about engines and physics and life in general tells me that those are some seriously hard moments in your engines life. Not to mention the extreme strain on all of your other drivetrain components. Road racing also places strains on your car, but ideally you become more smooth as you improve, rather than more violent. Exactly the opposite of drag racing. And at the risk of over-stepping my allocation of sports references...drag racing and NASCAR are intentional handicaps of a cars natural ability, like making horses run on three legs. Why in the world would you only turn left? Or not turn at all?

How can drag racing touch this?


My point that drag racing is a completely unsuitable method of effectively testing the 944 platform is still valid. The cars are extrememly difficult to launch well, this holds true at any HP level. They dont make real power until higher rev ranges, especially the Turbos. Drag racing plays to all the weak points of the 944 design, without allowing any of the strengths to come into play.

Its like making Gretszky play goalie.


<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Lemon Yellow 87 n/a

How did I know that this topic was going to be turned in to a drag racing/street racing rant???

ribs

[quote]Originally posted by Water944t:
<strong>
I never said drag racing was bad or wrong.
</strong>
Yes...but...
<strong>I simply said that drag racing 944's was wrong, an opinion I believe I can support with empirical evidence.</strong>
Bring it on. Its wrong to endager the lives of other people. Saying its wrong to drag race a 944 without any good evidence to back it up is just...sorry to insult your opinion...ignorant. If, in your humble opinion, it is wrong to run your 944/951 at the drag strip, THEN WHY THE **** DO THEY LIST THE 1/4 MILE TIME FOR YOUR CAR IN THE MOTHER****ING OWNERS MANUAL!?!?!?!? Obviously, the creator of the car doesn't think its wrong, so even if, through your empirically founded double blind study on the subject, you have come to the conclusion that it is wrong, why would you make such an unfounded blanket statement of fact? It is your opinion, and I respect it...I happen to enjoy drag racing and plan to continue to do so. If I bust an axle, I'm out a couple cases of new castle and a couple hours of my time. Again, I'm not trying to sling mud or call names (note that I was just being sarchastic and insulting your opinion, not you), so I'll continue to try to keep this civil. WTF am I up at 5:45 in the morning defending my opinion that drag racing my 951 is koshur and fun anyways?

<strong>
I DID say that drag racing could be accomplished both well and cheaply with good old American Iron. It is also a provable fact. I will be suprememly surprised if the SFR SC car can break 12 seconds. I hope they do. I still stand by my statement that I could go faster in the 1/4 for the price of the SC alone by going Iron.</strong>

About your previous statement on old american iron being cheap...sure, its cheaper to go american, but $2000 is not going to turn a 12 or 13 second car into a 9 second car. Maybe $10000, but not $2000, unless you own your own machine shop, get a hell of a deal on a 200 shot of nitrous, can get mandrel steel piping for free, know how to build slushboxes and can get all of the internals for free, and already own a trailer to tow your car that would be unstreetable. I really think you are missing the point of all of this. If anybody on this list wanted a car that would go fast only in a straight line, and be able to go from not to 1/4 mile in 9 seconds, we wouldn't be figuring out how to do it in a porsche...several listers own american drag racers, street bikes, etc. How many road racing cars (GT style...can be driven on the streets) do 1/4 miles in under 11 seconds anyways? Not many...7L 9 second lingenfelter twin turbo vette comes to mind, but come on...that thing drag raced an F/18 in motor trend magazine...I'm sure its a beast at the track, but most of that power is unusable. People here like fast cars that handle and brake well. Drag racing is the purist measure of being a fast car...our cars aren't super fast, but they are quicker than 95% of the cars out there (at least the 951's)...so why not find out how your car stacks up to others and have fun while doing it? I promise you...you aren't going to break a half shaft unless you really **** up your take off at the strip.

<strong>
I certainly enjoyed your rant, however misinformed you might have been. Maybe a more thorough reading of the post would have cleared it up. </strong>

I'm glad you enjoyed! I enjoyed your rant, too. I thought I read it pretty clearly, and IIRC, I only defended drag racing 944's/951's, and never tried to be the ACLU for the whole sport.

<strong>
I too enjoy watching and participating in drag racing. I have even street raced, much to my current shame. I would not do it now. But I do like to see fast cars in any forum other than the street.
</strong>

I like drag racing, too, and have enjoyed both watching and participating. Tsk Tsk Tsk. Street racing is bad...hell...I got up over a buck twenty tonight with some kid in an MR2 piloting my celica all-trac...I beat him, but not by much...it was from 60-120, over a bridge, no traffic at all, both seperated by a lane. Did I risk anybodies life but mine and the MR2 guy? No...risk was minimal, so I had fun. I don't do it often, and I am glad I don't do it in my 951 anymore because of the couple of times I have it has ended up being with a trans-am or a vette and often not ending until 160 is seen. I enjoy seeing fast cars in any form not on the street too...well...unless they are pushrod V8's powering a RWD chassis that resembles a FWD family car going around a circle. NASCAR road races are pretty cool though.

<strong>
My comments pertained solely to the suitability of the 944/951 and some import FWD cars to hard launch drag racing. I also see little use in measuring a car designed to corner on a stratigh track. I do approve of "roll-on" racing, as it is much more suited to the 944.

My opinion is worth what you paid for it.
</strong>

If you launch correctly it really isn't that hard on your drivetrain...you will eat up a bit of your clutch and tires...thats it. Morons in civics and integras always complaining about breaking half shafts are usually showboating by taking off with a burnout which will give massive shock to your transmission and axles. People who know how to drive correctly break stuff less often. 951's were also designed to go fast in a straight line...otherwise the steering wheel always veer to some direction. Don't forget that straight line performance tests are listed in the back of your manual...that is a good indication to me that somebody at porsche thought it would be a good idea to see how fast these things go straight, right it down, and share, as many of us like to do as well. Have you ever seen a civic run a 9 second 1/4 mile? That is cool stuff.
<strong> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> right back at you.

Water944t

[quote]Bring it on. Its wrong to endager the lives of other people. Saying its wrong to drag race a 944 without any good evidence to back it up is just...sorry to insult your opinion...ignorant. If, in your humble opinion, it is wrong to run your 944/951 at the drag strip, THEN WHY THE.............Street racing is bad...hell...I got up over a buck twenty tonight with some kid in an MR2 piloting my celica all-trac...I beat him, but not by much...it was from 60-120, over a bridge, no traffic at all, both seperated by a lane. Did I risk anybodies life but mine and the MR2 guy? No...risk was minimal, so I had fun. <hr></blockquote>




Lots of stuff to say, not sure it matters...


I also have been known to get up over the century mark, but always very alone, no passengers either. And less often since I started thinking about it more.

As far as being ignorant, I would suggest you do a few searches for information right here at Rennlist. I have read numerous threads from people commenting on breaking shafts on launches, or as you say "fscking up the launch". I cant count the number of posts about hard launch/high power failures. WOT is hard on your engine, period. Jamming your foot down its throat causes parts to fail, and things to break. Its not rocket science. The more smoothly you can apply power, the less stress on the system. Again, not rocket science.

I am not saying that normal street racing or track racing will prevent part failure, or even lengthen part life. Explosions inside a metal box is a recipe for disaster. But I stand by my statement that blasting an engine down a track for 15 seconds is at the top of the list of harsh things to do to your car.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

ribs

[quote]Originally posted by Water944t:
<strong>I never said anyone had to follow my orders, I havent barked an order in more than 10 years. (Kids dont count.)

I was just making a case for my opinion, one which I still believe I can support with factual data.</strong>

Bring on the facts! I'm going to bed after this, so this will have to be continued tomorrow. Hopefully more people will chime in...civil disagreement on a public forum is always fun!

<strong> Drag racing Porsche's is in general a bad idea. As i said once before:

It's like making Baryshnikov county line dance, sure he can do it, but its a horrible waste of talent.
</strong>

I'm going to agree with the fact that only drag racing your porsche is kind of a waste, but I don't see why it is a bad idea to use a car for one of many purposes it was concieved for. Nice analogy.

<strong>
I agree that is a point of drag racing. To run your engine as hard as you possible can, for 10-20 seconds. I cannot conceed that point. There is no arguement that you could bring that will convince me of the theraputic or performance enhancing properties of blasting the crap out of your engine for incredibly short periods. All of the knowledge I have about engines and physics and life in general tells me that those are some seriously hard moments in your engines life. Not to mention the extreme strain on all of your other drivetrain components. Road racing also places strains on your car, but ideally you become more smooth as you improve, rather than more violent. Exactly the opposite of drag racing. And at the risk of over-stepping my allocation of sports references...drag racing and NASCAR are intentional handicaps of a cars natural ability, like making horses run on three legs. Why in the world would you only turn left? Or not turn at all?
</strong>

In case you have never noticed, until turn one, ANY ROAD RACE FROM A STANDING START BEGINS LIFE AS A DRAG RACE

Drag racing takes finesse...lanching correctly isn't abhorrently violent to your drivetrain...it involves a balanced slip of your tires and clutch to match (usually) the peak in your torque band without spinning your wheels or smoking your clutch. As in road racing, you are going to want to shift as quickly as possible. You are going to put your car through 100 times the ringer in a road race than in a drag race...not only are you accelerating as fast as possible whenever you are accelerating, but you are going to be holding your engine in high revvs constantly, eating your brakes and tires, abusing your suspension, etc. Drag racing is nothing on a car compared to road racing. I hate nascar, except the two road races. I'm sure I'll end up going to dover since its only 45 minutes away, getting drunk, and watching some cars go in circles for a few hours before my college career is over, but I will never truely feel what all of those people with #9, #27, etc stickers on the back window of their trucks do. I never said that drag racing is all these cars are good for...read my next response.
<strong>
How can drag racing touch this?

</strong>

I never said it could...why do you think I bought a porsche and not a camaro? What do you think I eventually plan on doing with my car anyways? Why do I have $1400 (just getting started, too) into my suspension and no MAF or big turbo?

<strong>
My point that drag racing is a completely unsuitable method of effectively testing the 944 platform is still valid. The cars are extrememly difficult to launch well, this holds true at any HP level. They dont make real power until higher rev ranges, especially the Turbos. Drag racing plays to all the weak points of the 944 design, without allowing any of the strengths to come into play.

Its like making Gretszky play goalie.
</strong>

I will agree that these are not nearly the ideal platform for drag racing. If you want a car that is a jack of all trades (can drag race, autocross, road race, etc. better than anything else collectively), get a 3rd gen rx-7. 951's are hard to launch...I had a ****ty 60 foot on my best 1/4 mile run, and I hope to improve on that. They are not impossible, though. Once I learned a surface I was using my friend's g-tech on, I was able to blast off some very respectible 0-60 times (5.15 was my average) considering I had a full tank of gas and a passenger. The drag strip was a very foreign surface to me, and I hope to learn it better. The turbos start to make huge torque at about 3500 RPMs, and if you can effectively channel this power with a correct launch, you can get a decent ET. I have been up to the drag strip two times and I have yet to learn the surface, but didn't do too bad all things considered. I will agree that these cars were designed for road racing, not drag racing (the tall *** first gear is a dead giveaway) but if used properly can be made to do just about anything.
<strong> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> and good night.

Paul Bloomberg

"Isn't a road race a drag race separated by corners" : 0

I guess it's the start you object to! (drive shafts,ect..)Me too, I'm lazy, I don't want to work on my car that's why I help keep various shops in business and support the economy. : )

water944T,
You ought to come over to the AZ region for a track event with PCA or NASA. We have some fast drivers and a great bunch of guys.
BTW-my racecar has a whoppin 125RWHP-it is a blast and I'm not even close to the limits.

Re: "Foolish"/"reliability" -- yes, getting 404RWHP out of a 2.5 ltr turbo will hurt the reliability compared to a stock 951.
Judging someone else by their own means is Foolish!!
I would be willing to bet that most of the guys on the list realize that boosting their motor up over 300RWHP MIGHT have some risks. I ran 19-20psi making 320-335RWHP for the last 2 yrs without ANY problems.
Didn't you ask Technodyne about their turbo set-up? HUMM??
You were interested in more power but decided against it, so now more power is bad! yeah--OK

At the last NASA event at PIR there were 2-360 Modena's running in the DE group. One hit the wall! Was it foolish to track a $200K car? I don't I know I didn't know anything about the guy to make a judgement. Maybe to him it would be like someone elses 951 rebuild?
Paul

Water944t

[quote]Originally posted by Paul Bloomberg:
<strong>"Isn't a road race a drag race separated by corners" : 0

I guess it's the start you object to! (drive shafts,ect..)Me too, I'm lazy, I don't want to work on my car that's why I help keep various shops in business and support the economy. : )

water944T,
You ought to come over to the AZ region for a track event with PCA or NASA. We have some fast drivers and a great bunch of guys.
BTW-my racecar has a whoppin 125RWHP-it is a blast and I'm not even close to the limits.

Re: "Foolish"/"reliability" -- yes, getting 404RWHP out of a 2.5 ltr turbo will hurt the reliability compared to a stock 951.
Judging someone else by their own means is Foolish!!
I would be willing to bet that most of the guys on the list realize that boosting their motor up over 300RWHP MIGHT have some risks. I ran 19-20psi making 320-335RWHP for the last 2 yrs without ANY problems.
Didn't you ask Technodyne about their turbo set-up? HUMM??
You were interested in more power but decided against it, so now more power is bad! yeah--OK

At the last NASA event at PIR there were 2-360 Modena's running in the DE group. One hit the wall! Was it foolish to track a $200K car? I don't I know I didn't know anything about the guy to make a judgement. Maybe to him it would be like someone elses 951 rebuild?
Paul</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, Paul...

Since I am moving to Phoenix within the next couple of months, I will take you up on that. Its why I bought my car.

I never said that anyone was personallyfoolish or irresponsible to drag race. In fact, I repeatedly expressed my admiration for those who do. I simple stated, Porsche's are a foolish car to drag race in. They are not well suited to the task, as I have stated, and as many individuals personal experience reflects.

I have never asked Technodyne anything, my 951 is completly stock and will remain that way until I exhaust the potential of the stock car on the track, which may very well take years. I have asked a few questions about SEM, which appeals to me, but it is not a pressing issue. I do intend to do a good teardown/rebuild with new seal, gaskets, hoses, ect...before I start to track the car.

I have looked at a few 3rd Gen RX-7 models, but I am unwilling to put that much money into a car I am going to track. I have less than $6000 into my 951 so far, and that includes new tires, clutch, and a few misc. details that needed attention. When it becomes a money hole, its gone. It was purchased primarily to race in last year. A broken back and subsequent spinal fusion has slightly delayed my SCCA career.

But, since I will be in Phoenix by the fall, I will have many more tracks, and a good driving school at my fingertips. I can assure you that you wont see me at the 1/4 mile strip. I simply couldnt get excited about what I consider "racing masturbation".

I do appriciate those of you willing to defend your ideas, without losing your cool. It is nice to debate intelligently.

You are still drooling baboons who cant turn.


<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Water944t

[quote]At the last NASA event at PIR there were 2-360 Modena's running in the DE group. One hit the wall! Was it foolish to track a $200K car? I don't I know I didn't know anything about the guy to make a judgement. Maybe to him it would be like someone elses 951 rebuild?<hr></blockquote>


i would, on the surface, call that guy an assclown. It certainly sounds like he would have benifited with a $100k car, and $100k worth of driving lessons.

Yeah, I stand by that, anyone who plows a Modena is an assclown. Just for the fact of destroying automotive art. I dont care what his monetary situation is, he could be Big Bill Gates for all I care. If anything, he is a bigger assclown for being so intentionally wasteful. I dont know the guy to make a judgement either, but I suspect a case of "more money than brains". I could be wrong, maybe it was mechanical failure, not his fault at all.

But like my grandpa always told me, "Just because a man can, doesnt mean he always should." And I believe that.

I would love to own a Modena. But not until I can drive it. And I wouldnt track it until I felt confident that my driving skills were its equal. Like you said, 125HP can be a handful if its driven to the edge. 3-4x that can be disasterous to the unskilled/unwary. There was a great post just a day or so ago that showed what happens when moron meets gas pedal in a Modena.


I hope to meet you soon Paul, maybe you can "lern" me about them there racin track-thingys. I hope to be not embarassing myself after a year or two.


Simpering chimps with hairlips drag race.


<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

My944Turbo

When it comes to the Modena all I can say is...obviously he has a boat load of money. But to me the fact that he decided to go to the track to race his car and put it into the wall, says more about him then anything. Wouldn't you rather he did it on the track then the other guy who decided that the public highway is his own personal racetrack. I would rather he did what he did then see him coming at me at 120MPH around a corner next to my house. But then again that's just me. I also don't think he is an assclown, i'm sure a lot of people think i'm an assclown for owning a car that i cannot readily afford, I mean why buy a car when a little metric bolt that holds the engine tray protector to the car cost $5, that on a mustang cost 13 cents.
P.S. I really want a Modena, just so I can wreck it. j/k if i can i will...wait that's the immature part of me talking. just ignore him.

Water944t

[quote]Originally posted by My944Turbo:
<strong>When it comes to the Modena all I can say is...obviously he has a boat load of money. But to me the fact that he decided to go to the track to race his car and put it into the wall, says more about him then anything. Wouldn't you rather he did it on the track then the other guy who decided that the public highway is his own personal racetrack. I would rather he did what he did then see him coming at me at 120MPH around a corner next to my house. But then again that's just me. I also don't think he is an assclown, i'm sure a lot of people think i'm an assclown for owning a car that i cannot readily afford, I mean why buy a car when a little metric bolt that holds the engine tray protector to the car cost $5, that on a mustang cost 13 cents.
P.S. I really want a Modena, just so I can wreck it. j/k if i can i will...wait that's the immature part of me talking. just ignore him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I totally agree with this, thank god he was smart enough to race on a track, I just think he should have diverted some of that disposable income towards driver training. I bet he wishes he had spent a bit more on that too.

Assclown is a bit hard, but really...to thrash a Modena is a unforgivable sin. Its a piece of living breathing autoart.

Like I said, I want one.

Real Estate is a appriciating (sp) asset. It will hopefully be worth more than you paid for it in time. Cars are not, they are money holes from the word go, with a few rare exceptions. The Modena is probably one, unless its trashed.

Paul Bloomberg

whaa <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> ter944T,
Thanks for the economic tips, I'll be sure keep that in mind. : ) Maybe when you get in town we can go shoot some baskets with the NBA player that lives across the street.

Are you old enough to drink yet?

That was the best one yet except for:
"road races are drag races separated by corners". : o Didn't think about that one did ya!
I know some guys that worked on a 360 Modena challenge team. Pretty cars but not put togather to well!

Anyway,just funnin with you!
I look for toward meeting you. What class/car will you be racing? I'll buy the first BEER! : )
regards,
Paul