Newbie looking for a 944 Turbo
02-03-2003, 09:16 PM
#1
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Newbie looking for a 944 Turbo
Hello,
Sorry for the stupid questions, but I currently own a BMW Z3. I want a Porsche 944 to drive hard and perform performance modifications on. The Z3 is to be my daily driver; the Porsche would be a weekend car.
In my area (Florida) what is a reasonable price to pay for a 944 Turbo in excellent condition? Is there any specific year that I should avoid? How is the overall reliability?
Again, sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseam but I am going to be in the market for a used 944 in about 6 months and I would like to get some advice about them.
Thanks,
stjobs
Sorry for the stupid questions, but I currently own a BMW Z3. I want a Porsche 944 to drive hard and perform performance modifications on. The Z3 is to be my daily driver; the Porsche would be a weekend car.
In my area (Florida) what is a reasonable price to pay for a 944 Turbo in excellent condition? Is there any specific year that I should avoid? How is the overall reliability?
Again, sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseam but I am going to be in the market for a used 944 in about 6 months and I would like to get some advice about them.
Thanks,
stjobs
02-03-2003, 11:23 PM
#2
Nerd Herder
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
check e-bay. and excellence. good luck. most of us NA owners want to upgrade to a turbo- welcome to the fracus. It is gonna be a tougher market as the marque ages. For a 951 in "excellent"
condition, meaning all service records,no interior or exterior blemishes, less than 50 k miles, all PM done to spec from a enthusiast dont be afraid to spend 15 grand. Buy another BMW to beat if your afraid to (or can't afford to) turn a wrench.
condition, meaning all service records,no interior or exterior blemishes, less than 50 k miles, all PM done to spec from a enthusiast dont be afraid to spend 15 grand. Buy another BMW to beat if your afraid to (or can't afford to) turn a wrench.
02-04-2003, 04:35 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
If you plan on modifying the car, I would look for a 1986 year turbo. It was the introductory year and had the highest production turnout, making these still relatively abundant and available in decent condition for a wide range of prices under $10K. From years of reading Rennlist, these appear to be the best value for what you have in mind.
The 86 951 cars have some pros and cons, but if you're not going to keep it stock, the cons can be considered pros. I.e. late turbos had stiffer suspension, but you're probably going to upgrade it anyway, etc.
As for reliability, it will depend largely on the degree of modification. As a rule, highly modified cars tend to lose reliability simply because of the greater demands made on them. A good example of this is the headgasket. A stock 951 with 220-250 HP can easily go 100K miles on the original headgasket.
When you add performance chips, etc. nearing the 300 HP neighborhood, you start walking the tightrope until the headgasket gives and additional preventive engine work is advisable to keep it from happening again (e.g. O-ringing the head, etc.)
But don't be discouraged. Just go in with your eyes open. Good hunting and welcome to Rennlist!
The 86 951 cars have some pros and cons, but if you're not going to keep it stock, the cons can be considered pros. I.e. late turbos had stiffer suspension, but you're probably going to upgrade it anyway, etc.
As for reliability, it will depend largely on the degree of modification. As a rule, highly modified cars tend to lose reliability simply because of the greater demands made on them. A good example of this is the headgasket. A stock 951 with 220-250 HP can easily go 100K miles on the original headgasket.
When you add performance chips, etc. nearing the 300 HP neighborhood, you start walking the tightrope until the headgasket gives and additional preventive engine work is advisable to keep it from happening again (e.g. O-ringing the head, etc.)
But don't be discouraged. Just go in with your eyes open. Good hunting and welcome to Rennlist!
02-04-2003, 10:14 AM
#5
Race Director
If you are going to modify the car, stay away from the relatively rarer 944 Turbo S. Those cars will hold their value better if left untouched. But any of the '86 through '88 non-S turbos are a good place to start.
Be aware, however, that the '86 951 (Porsche-speak for 944 turbo) has a different wheel offset than the '87 and up Porsches. The 'newer' Porsches had a 55mm front / 52.3 rear wheel offset, while the earlier cars had various different offsets. (IIRC, the '86 951 had offsets around 23 mm). IF you decide to get newer wheels for a '86 951, you'll also have to buy spacers to accomodate them. (The offsets were changed to accomodate the ABS systems, btw).
You mention that you wish to drive the car hard. What do you mean? Street driving, drag race? Autocross, Track/driver's ed?
What type of performance mods do you wish to perform on the vehicle?
Regarding cost: it varies: for a rough condition 951, you can spend as little as around $5k. For a minty-clean 951S, the price can approach $20k. For a well sorted and tricked out track car, the price can go well beyond $20k! So there's lots of room in terms of price.
Hope this helps,
-Z-man.
Be aware, however, that the '86 951 (Porsche-speak for 944 turbo) has a different wheel offset than the '87 and up Porsches. The 'newer' Porsches had a 55mm front / 52.3 rear wheel offset, while the earlier cars had various different offsets. (IIRC, the '86 951 had offsets around 23 mm). IF you decide to get newer wheels for a '86 951, you'll also have to buy spacers to accomodate them. (The offsets were changed to accomodate the ABS systems, btw).
You mention that you wish to drive the car hard. What do you mean? Street driving, drag race? Autocross, Track/driver's ed?
What type of performance mods do you wish to perform on the vehicle?
Regarding cost: it varies: for a rough condition 951, you can spend as little as around $5k. For a minty-clean 951S, the price can approach $20k. For a well sorted and tricked out track car, the price can go well beyond $20k! So there's lots of room in terms of price.
Hope this helps,
-Z-man.
02-04-2003, 12:06 PM
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My 1988 951 is for sale. I just decided to sell it last week and wanted to offer it here to people that will appreciate it before marketing it to the general public through Auto Trader. See my post "My 1988 944 turbo (951) for sale for $9,800" in this forum. Also, check your e-mail -- I sent you four pictures of it.
Regards,
Regards,
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02-04-2003, 02:34 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
You are getting good advice here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I bought an '86 951 about four years ago. I paid $9k. I then proceeded to at least double that in mods. You can go mass flow, chips, test pipe, ect for about $2k if you install it, which is pretty easy. The suspension, because of the torsion bars is a little spendy. The work is not as simple. It is easy to drop $5k into it. Figure, seats, steering wheels harnesses for a few more grand. When you are done with that round you have a $20k car. The upside is that it will be a wicked fast (0-60 ~4.5 sec.) and an extremely good handling car. There are not very many cars that contest it at any price.
I also blew the headgasket twice, and had a couple of other expensive repairs. They are tough but they can pop when you mod them. I ran the heck out of mine at the track. It was a hoot. I sold it for about what I bought it for, so don't expect much return on the mods. Have Fun
I also blew the headgasket twice, and had a couple of other expensive repairs. They are tough but they can pop when you mod them. I ran the heck out of mine at the track. It was a hoot. I sold it for about what I bought it for, so don't expect much return on the mods. Have Fun
02-04-2003, 05:04 PM
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When I say I am going to drive it hard I intend for it to be my driver's school/auto-x car. Maybe occasional street driving.
As far as mods, I doubt I would do any major engine work - possibly Autothority chips and a cold air intake. I would also strip the interior as much as possible and install racing seats and a Momo wheel. I don't intend to have a 350 hp car, although that would be nice
If I bought a turbo, it would be the regular (non-S) version.
How is the 944S (N/A) that I have read develops around 190 hp? Is this a good value for the performance? They seem to sell cheaper than the 951s in my area.
"Buy another BMW to beat if your afraid to (or can't afford to) turn a wrench."
I have no problem doing my own work, I do as much as I can on my Z3. Since the Porsche will not my daily driver I can take the time to do maintenance and repairs myself.
Besides Rennlist, where are good places to look for used 944s? I would prefer one within 3-400 miles of me.
Thanks for the advice,
stjobs
As far as mods, I doubt I would do any major engine work - possibly Autothority chips and a cold air intake. I would also strip the interior as much as possible and install racing seats and a Momo wheel. I don't intend to have a 350 hp car, although that would be nice
If I bought a turbo, it would be the regular (non-S) version.
How is the 944S (N/A) that I have read develops around 190 hp? Is this a good value for the performance? They seem to sell cheaper than the 951s in my area.
"Buy another BMW to beat if your afraid to (or can't afford to) turn a wrench."
I have no problem doing my own work, I do as much as I can on my Z3. Since the Porsche will not my daily driver I can take the time to do maintenance and repairs myself.
Besides Rennlist, where are good places to look for used 944s? I would prefer one within 3-400 miles of me.
Thanks for the advice,
stjobs
02-04-2003, 05:19 PM
#12
Race Director
The 944S is a very difficult car to modify, as is the case with my car, the 944S2. Many tuners shy away from the 4cyl 16valve head, due to the perception that it is a fragile unit. If either engine is well maintained, there should be no problems with the engine.
PAR Porsche in NY has a 944S Firestone Firehawk racer for sale for $23,900 (www.parcars.com) :
<img src="http://www.parcars.com/656.jpg" alt=" - " />
It's a rare car, hence the high price.
That said, the best you can do with the 944S and 944S2 is chips, intake, and exhaust for hp gains and still have a relatively RELIABLE powerplant. There are turbo and supercharger kits for these cars, but personally, I wouldn't recommend going that route.
If you want to mod, go with the turbo. No doubt.
If however, you want good low-end torque right out of the box and leave the turbos in the dust on the exit of every corner on the racetrack, then go with a 944S2 or a 968! hehe...
All is, of course, is just my $0.42.
-Zoltan.
PAR Porsche in NY has a 944S Firestone Firehawk racer for sale for $23,900 (www.parcars.com) :
<img src="http://www.parcars.com/656.jpg" alt=" - " />
It's a rare car, hence the high price.
That said, the best you can do with the 944S and 944S2 is chips, intake, and exhaust for hp gains and still have a relatively RELIABLE powerplant. There are turbo and supercharger kits for these cars, but personally, I wouldn't recommend going that route.
If you want to mod, go with the turbo. No doubt.
If however, you want good low-end torque right out of the box and leave the turbos in the dust on the exit of every corner on the racetrack, then go with a 944S2 or a 968! hehe...
All is, of course, is just my $0.42.
-Zoltan.
02-04-2003, 06:38 PM
#13
Your are getting good advice. As far as where else to look. Check out Autotrader, as you can put in the distance to search. Other net classifieds like carbuyer.com are also a good place to search. The 944S and 944S2 can be good options as well as the Turbo's. I always say, test drive as many as you can so you get a feel for the cars and the value in each one. Good luck
02-04-2003, 06:50 PM
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i would think twice about going with autothority chips, yeah the give more horsepower, but the fuel map is screwed up. i'd go with the guru setup, 3 bar fpr, boost enhancer, wastegate shims, and chips. my roomate has an 87 951 and thats the only mod he has, WOW, the difference between autothority chips and the guru is night and day, good mixture, SMOKIN power, and relatively same price compared to autothority (they only give you chips and banjo bolt, danno's guru kit has more fun stuff to play with)
take it from the roommate of a 951 owner, and occasional 951 driver, go the guru way!
take it from the roommate of a 951 owner, and occasional 951 driver, go the guru way!
02-04-2003, 07:12 PM
#15
Race Car
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by stjobs:
[QB}How is the 944S (N/A) that I have read develops around 190 hp? Is this a good value for the performance? They seem to sell cheaper than the 951s in my area.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I have had the experience of owning both an 86 951 and a 87 944S. I can say without a doubt the 951 will give you MORE rush than any other car out there with the usual modifications most people do (chips). However, it is NOT the ideal autocross car because of the lack of low-end torque.
I now have an 87 944S (still wish I had the 951) that is my daily driver and i think it will turn out to be less expensive to maintain than the 951. Also, I intend on autocrossing with this car and I really believe that you learn better driving techniques with a less powerful car, rather than being so overwhelmed with the speed of a 951. Once you have the driving skills, then you can move on to managing a more powerful car.
[QB}How is the 944S (N/A) that I have read develops around 190 hp? Is this a good value for the performance? They seem to sell cheaper than the 951s in my area.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I have had the experience of owning both an 86 951 and a 87 944S. I can say without a doubt the 951 will give you MORE rush than any other car out there with the usual modifications most people do (chips). However, it is NOT the ideal autocross car because of the lack of low-end torque.
I now have an 87 944S (still wish I had the 951) that is my daily driver and i think it will turn out to be less expensive to maintain than the 951. Also, I intend on autocrossing with this car and I really believe that you learn better driving techniques with a less powerful car, rather than being so overwhelmed with the speed of a 951. Once you have the driving skills, then you can move on to managing a more powerful car.