Electronic Valves?
01-14-2003, 11:48 AM
#16
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I think all F1 cars us pnumatic or hydraulic valves. Something about too many rpm for metal springs. If they changed back I would be surprised.
The latest to try electic valves was Renault. I heard they did this in 2001, Not sure about the 2002 motor. Yes it would allow more rpm and greater control in theory, but I don't think it developed enough even for F1.
Don't be surprised to see it in street car in 10-15 years.
The latest to try electic valves was Renault. I heard they did this in 2001, Not sure about the 2002 motor. Yes it would allow more rpm and greater control in theory, but I don't think it developed enough even for F1.
Don't be surprised to see it in street car in 10-15 years.
01-14-2003, 01:14 PM
#17
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the last i heard of this was a couple years ago at school from the smartest man i've ever met--a mechanical engineering prof who taught automotive engineering and fluid dynamics... he said that high pressure hydraulics were the only viable way to actuate valves at high rpm and that at the time, it cost many thousand dollars PER VALVE to set such a system up, but it has been done with great success.
01-14-2003, 01:32 PM
#18
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by ian:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Olli Snellman:
<strong>F1 cars use compressed air for opening valves.They have used this method at least ten years.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not ferrari, they still use valve springs, how the hell they get them to rev that high I don't know, but they do it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The valve springs close the valves. You could still have compressed air open them. I however cannot vouch for the validity of the claim.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Olli Snellman:
<strong>F1 cars use compressed air for opening valves.They have used this method at least ten years.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not ferrari, they still use valve springs, how the hell they get them to rev that high I don't know, but they do it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The valve springs close the valves. You could still have compressed air open them. I however cannot vouch for the validity of the claim.
01-14-2003, 01:52 PM
#19
Ben,
I think that's what that diesel application was all about. IIRC, it had electro-hydraulic solenoids that opened and closed the valves and controlled lift and duration. I'll have to see if I can find the information I looked up about it.
I think that's what that diesel application was all about. IIRC, it had electro-hydraulic solenoids that opened and closed the valves and controlled lift and duration. I'll have to see if I can find the information I looked up about it.
01-14-2003, 02:01 PM
#20
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What I _think_ I know here may be wildly out of date by now...
A) F1 cars have used gas-operated valves ("pneumatic", but some gas other than air) for several years. This is used to close the valve, to get around the problem of high-rpm valve float. The valves are still opened & timed by a mechanical camshaft.
B) Solenoid-operated, computer controlled valves are still not yet ready for the mass market, but may get there sometime in the next five years. Higher voltage systems will help; long-term heat dissapation / endurance is still a problem. High-rpm operation is a problem beause of the heat generated by the resistance of the coil, when combined with the ambient heat on top of the head.
I think it's a great idea. The increased flexibility of valve timing should make the gas engine cleaner, more effecient, and more powerful, all in the same package. But I'll wait until someone else has put 100K on such an engine before I buy one, thank you very much.
Jim, don't have to have the newest thing to impress the neighbors...
A) F1 cars have used gas-operated valves ("pneumatic", but some gas other than air) for several years. This is used to close the valve, to get around the problem of high-rpm valve float. The valves are still opened & timed by a mechanical camshaft.
B) Solenoid-operated, computer controlled valves are still not yet ready for the mass market, but may get there sometime in the next five years. Higher voltage systems will help; long-term heat dissapation / endurance is still a problem. High-rpm operation is a problem beause of the heat generated by the resistance of the coil, when combined with the ambient heat on top of the head.
I think it's a great idea. The increased flexibility of valve timing should make the gas engine cleaner, more effecient, and more powerful, all in the same package. But I'll wait until someone else has put 100K on such an engine before I buy one, thank you very much.
Jim, don't have to have the newest thing to impress the neighbors...
01-14-2003, 02:28 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
I was reading about this 42V stuff the other day and it aimed at solenoid valves and throttle-less engines for good air pumping efficiency. It seems there is still a fair bit of work to eliminate the massive arcing that occurs when connecting and disconnecting the 42V wiring. It seems like the arcing is enough to completely destroy some connectors etc.
It will be interesting for sure when its all sorted out.
It will be interesting for sure when its all sorted out.
01-14-2003, 04:04 PM
#23
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Olli Snellman:
<strong>F1 cars use compressed air for opening valves.They have used this method at least ten years.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Actually the valves are closed pneumatically.
<strong>F1 cars use compressed air for opening valves.They have used this method at least ten years.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Actually the valves are closed pneumatically.
01-14-2003, 04:23 PM
#24
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My neighbor works for International (Big Trucks). They have a truck that will have electronic (hydraulic) valves similar to what you describe.
The engines are not high revving so this will work great in these applications.
The engines are not high revving so this will work great in these applications.
01-14-2003, 04:40 PM
#25
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Danno:
<strong>Wasn't there someone experimenting with rotary valves?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Yeah, I saw something about that as well.
<strong>Wasn't there someone experimenting with rotary valves?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Yeah, I saw something about that as well.
01-14-2003, 04:43 PM
#26
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by bs:
<strong>the last i heard of this was a couple years ago at school from the smartest man i've ever met--a mechanical engineering prof who taught automotive engineering and fluid dynamics... he said that high pressure hydraulics were the only viable way to actuate valves at high rpm and that at the time, it cost many thousand dollars PER VALVE to set such a system up, but it has been done with great success.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I hate to say it, but hydraulics is not it. Pneumatics is what is being used and has been quite successfully for about 10 years.
<strong>the last i heard of this was a couple years ago at school from the smartest man i've ever met--a mechanical engineering prof who taught automotive engineering and fluid dynamics... he said that high pressure hydraulics were the only viable way to actuate valves at high rpm and that at the time, it cost many thousand dollars PER VALVE to set such a system up, but it has been done with great success.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I hate to say it, but hydraulics is not it. Pneumatics is what is being used and has been quite successfully for about 10 years.
01-14-2003, 04:57 PM
#27
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by ian:
<strong>Not ferrari, they still use valve springs</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'm afraid your data is incorrect.
<a href="http://www.formula1.com/teams/h3.html" target="_blank">http://www.formula1.com/teams/h3.html</a>
<strong>Not ferrari, they still use valve springs</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'm afraid your data is incorrect.
<a href="http://www.formula1.com/teams/h3.html" target="_blank">http://www.formula1.com/teams/h3.html</a>
01-14-2003, 05:23 PM
#28
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Danno:
<strong>Wasn't there someone experimenting with rotary valves? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I dunno if it's the same kind of rotary valve, but there were some European (Brit?) aero engines that used them pre-WWII, maybe earlier. Not sure which technical problems killed them off... may have been materials, manufacturing issues, or maintenance, or lack of effeciency compared to the poppet valve.
Every time I get into engine developments in the '20's & '30's, I'm a bit amazed at some of the ideas that were tried, and found wanting.
What I'm still waiting for is the practical production of mostly ceramic or ceramic-composite engines.
Jim, "Look, Ma! No cooling system! 'No' waste heat!"
<strong>Wasn't there someone experimenting with rotary valves? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I dunno if it's the same kind of rotary valve, but there were some European (Brit?) aero engines that used them pre-WWII, maybe earlier. Not sure which technical problems killed them off... may have been materials, manufacturing issues, or maintenance, or lack of effeciency compared to the poppet valve.
Every time I get into engine developments in the '20's & '30's, I'm a bit amazed at some of the ideas that were tried, and found wanting.
What I'm still waiting for is the practical production of mostly ceramic or ceramic-composite engines.
Jim, "Look, Ma! No cooling system! 'No' waste heat!"
01-15-2003, 01:39 AM
#29
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"But... if it's so simple why hasn't it been done?
My guess is that the forces required to open, hold and close the mass of the valves at the frequency an engine requires is not possible with a magnetic device that will fit into the space allowed.
Think of it as the total distortion a cheap set of speakers go into when you hit them with 200 watts RMS. About 180 watts more that they are rated for.
Or go out the garage and get a valve spring and a board. Put the spring on the concrete floor and the board on top of the spring. Now stand on the board and see how far the spring collapses.
Not as far as the cam has to move it if at all. This is the return force required to get the valve closed. No not hold it closed but to accelerate it and close it in time for the engine to cycle properly.
Daunting."
you have to remember that the springs cause the resistance... if it's electrical, then there is no need for springs and thus have no resistance
My guess is that the forces required to open, hold and close the mass of the valves at the frequency an engine requires is not possible with a magnetic device that will fit into the space allowed.
Think of it as the total distortion a cheap set of speakers go into when you hit them with 200 watts RMS. About 180 watts more that they are rated for.
Or go out the garage and get a valve spring and a board. Put the spring on the concrete floor and the board on top of the spring. Now stand on the board and see how far the spring collapses.
Not as far as the cam has to move it if at all. This is the return force required to get the valve closed. No not hold it closed but to accelerate it and close it in time for the engine to cycle properly.
Daunting."
you have to remember that the springs cause the resistance... if it's electrical, then there is no need for springs and thus have no resistance
01-15-2003, 02:15 AM
#30
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by BenzGuy72:
<strong>
you have to remember that the springs cause the resistance... if it's electrical, then there is no need for springs and thus have no resistance</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">My reference to the rigidity of the spring is to illustrate the amount force or electromagnetic energy required to close the valve in a "timely" fashion.
I see any solenoid type linear actuator experiencing saturation (collapse of the magnetic field) long before the engine reaches moderate to higher RPMs. That and the tremendous amount of current would impart a considerable drag on the engine through the alternator(s).
A good example of this is the injectors fire twice per cycle not to pre load the intake but because at higher RPMs the magnetic field collapses and renders the injector useless for fuel metering. Guess you could run the injector wide open but you can't do that with a valve.
<strong>
you have to remember that the springs cause the resistance... if it's electrical, then there is no need for springs and thus have no resistance</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">My reference to the rigidity of the spring is to illustrate the amount force or electromagnetic energy required to close the valve in a "timely" fashion.
I see any solenoid type linear actuator experiencing saturation (collapse of the magnetic field) long before the engine reaches moderate to higher RPMs. That and the tremendous amount of current would impart a considerable drag on the engine through the alternator(s).
A good example of this is the injectors fire twice per cycle not to pre load the intake but because at higher RPMs the magnetic field collapses and renders the injector useless for fuel metering. Guess you could run the injector wide open but you can't do that with a valve.