adrial

OK, convince me why I should do DE.
I get the good parts...I want to know how mild the bad part (Safety) is.

Zoltan did a good deal at the autox today...but I need someone to push me over the edge.

So, why is DE safe? I'm thinking about the july 11 lime rock event...

I've done i think 7 or 8 autocrosses so far this season...I'm not great but I'm not horrible, (no trash talk her guys! )...

dave120

Hi there,

DE is definately a lot of fun. (Where else can you do 130+ legally? )

But the safety of it is also very good. I went to one back in February and I plan on going again this October..

They really don't mess around at these events. They make sure you're clear of the rules before you begin, and if you break them at all, they pull you off the track and let you hear it. They don't let you tailgate, you have to give a signal for somebody to pass you. If they pass you without you giving them the signal, their weekend is over on the first offense. Usually in the lower running groups they only have 1 passing zone (at least at the track I was at, Roebling Road in Savannah, GA)

Basically you drive within your own comfort level. You can go 30 mph around the track and people won't be all over your tail or trying to pass you. If they do they're likely to get black flagged and yelled at.

Yes it's high speed, yes it's a lot of fun, and it's also very safe. They seemed to keep us pretty well spread out except when you're passing.

But i must say nothing is quite as intimidating
as me blasting down the straight at about 130 and then I give my dad behind me the signal and he flies by my like I'm standing still in his 993TT <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Ok this is getting a little long so I'll be quiet now. But if it's safety you're worried about for these events, don't be. It's a driver EDUCATION event, not a race. They actually addressed all the club racers at the drivers meeting and made sure they were aware of that. A very organized, safe, and fun weekend. And you'll learn so much about your car, and then you realize you have so much more still to learn.

ian

Is a drivers event 100% safe? No, but nothing is. The events a run with saftey in mind, not speed. Sure your speeds will creep up over the weekend, but that happens as you and everyone else gets more familiar with the track and their cars. Instructors are there telling you what your car is doing and teaching you a lot along the way.

To takle this from another angle, I think you should consider your saftey on the road. Going to a D.E. will teach you how to hold your car at the limit, so now if you get into a real world situation you may know what to do. The school will make you a better driver, and have the tendancy to slow you down on the roads.

Why should you go?
You will learn a lot, if you hate it you never have to go back, you'll see what your car is capable of, and you'll spend a weekend with Porshce enthusiasts.

Dave in Chicago

DE is like autocross with a few differences:

Autocross - wait, wait, wait some more, get a 2 minute run, wait, wait, wait some more, get a 2 minute run... Net/net - spend all day, drive less than 10 minutes.

DE - wait, wait, get a 25-minute run, wait, wait, get a 25-minute run... Net/net - spend all day, drive almost 2 hours.

You get the picture. The cool thing is going over the same track lap-on-lap in one session and improving your line, braking, exit speed, etc.

It's higher speed overall, but just 'cause the course is much larger. Because of the speed, car inspection and maintenance is pretty darned important. Other than that, there is generally run-off for areas where trouble might occur, good spacing and behavior of drivers, solid corner worker staff, and great instruction. Trust me, the instructors don't want you to get into trouble.

I have heard it said that all autocrossers make good DE drivers but not necessarily the other way around. My interpretation of this is that you have already developed skills and feel that will likely make you a very competent and confident track driver.

In my view, the biggest safety factor is ME, the driver. If I lapse in concentration on the track or on the road, the risk is high. If I remain fully engaged, I've not had a lick of trouble. I imagine you will find your experience the same.

Keep the shiny side up,

Z-man

[quote]Originally posted by Dave Swanson:
<strong>...I have heard it said that all autocrossers make good DE drivers but not necessarily the other way around. My interpretation of this is that you have already developed skills and feel that will likely make you a very competent and confident track driver...</strong><hr></blockquote>

While I agree that autocross is a great springboard and training for DE events, I am learning that there are subtle differences between the two that can hinder DE events. Specifically:

1. Smooth steering input: Some schools of thought feel that a not-so-smooth steering can help with some tight courses at autox: the slalom, for example. Going through a slalom with a 'left-straight-right-straight-left-straight...' motion helps to settle the car between the cones and prevents the pendulum effect (This is particularly true with 911's, but can apply to 944s as well). There are others who believe a smooth transition between cones is better.

2. Hand position: at DE, it's always at 2-10. Sometimes at autox, one needs to shuffle the hands around due to the tightness of the course.
At autox, sometimes it's just impossible to keep your hands at 2-10.

3. There is more of a defined 'proper line' at racetracks than at autox, again due to the autox being so tight. Get off the ideal line at a track, and your times will be noticably slower. Altering the line in autox can be beneficial or detremental.

There are other differences, but I feel the DE is a natural progression for someone who has become involved with autox. IMO, attending at least one autox should be a requirement to attending your first DE event.

Just my $0.42.
-Zoltan.

Matt

I don't have to tell you that DE can be huge fun - I mean *huge* fun - lots of people have already told you that and they're right. Someone also pointed out correctly that DE will make you a better street driver, though I'd guess that autocross does that too. It's also true that folks with autocross experience often make better DE students, at least initially, because of the car control skills already learned.

I think the choice to do DE or not, though, is a personal decision and I wouldn't try to talk you into or out of it. These are high speed events and there is risk involved in track driving. It all comes down to how much risk someone wants to tolerate.

Injuries are very rare. Not nonexistent, and they can be very serious, but they are rare.

A careful and attentive driver (who really pays attention to his/her instructor) can minimize the risk to self and car quite a bit, but not eliminate it. Crashes caused by other drivers' mistakes, or by a mechanical failure, or by oil/antifreeze dropped on the track by someone else's mechanical problem, are not common, but they can happen.

Just examples - at a DE I was at last month, two cars were heavily damaged in separate incidents. The driver of one was a first-timer, the other was an instructor. At an event I was at last week at another track (considered by many to be the less safe of the two), there was nary an incident - I saw no problem other than a flat tire, and the driver (an instructor) controlled it fine.

I'm not trying to paint a negative picture at all here, just addressing your question about safety.

If you do try it, there's a good chance you'll be hooked. The NY and neighboring regions run lots of great DE events, and you've got two tracks nearby and others within a day's drive. Time is short for that July event, though - things tend to fill up fast.

Matt

jason952

DE is much better than autox, imo. When you do the DE, you see what your car was really meant to do. Mine doesn't feel so great downshifting into 1st at 25 mph; downshifting into 3rd at 85 is much better!

Jason

Alpine951

One of the reasons why it is safe is because you have an instructor in your car and he/she will not let you do anything stupid, especially as a novice. They are not just thinking of you, but also themselves. I did my first three events last year, 2 at Limerock and 1 at NHIS. I will be at Limerock July 11th. This is not racing. If someone is on your tail, they can not pass until you give them the high sign. I did 2 years of autox after I got my car and when I first did it it was a rush. But then it sucked because the runs are only 50 seconds, its tuff to improve right away, wait forever between runs. Hey, the only way to find out is try it. Believe me, you will love it.

John
86 white 951
white fuchs
car#944

user 8430

This may be a dumb question....but have no idea about de evenys.....yet........do you use your own car or an instruction car?? What other track events are good other than DE? Can one just pay for a few laps on a non DE weekend etc etc?

eugene

Register for one event. After the first run, if you don't like it or think that it is too dangerous, then you can just stop.

Only by giving it a try, you can determine if it something you want to do more of.

You will get whatever help you may need. Track people are generally a very helpful bunch.

Remember that everybody was a Total Green Beginner at one time.

I hope that you sign up and give it a try.

Alpine951

Plus the good thing about Limerock, which is also why I went there first, is there are plenty of run off areas to bail out. Not a bunch of walls like at NHIS.

Alpine951

And there are naked women running around all over the place!! <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

Dave in Chicago

No, you gotta use your own car. Just keep the shiny side up...

kellyk

I regularly instruct at POC drivers ed events. Safety of drivers and instructors is a huge priority. Overall, we have 9-10 club DE club events every year and very seldom ever have an incident where a car gets damaged. Car-to-car contact (at a school) has never happened since I have been a member.

Safety starts with good car prep. Make sure a qualified mechanic thoughoughly looks at your car before taking it out on any race track. Check wheel lug torque, wheel bearings, brake pads, throttle return springs, battery hold-downs, tire pressure, oil leaks, fuel lines, tire tread and make sure all loose items are removed from the car (including floormats!). A well maintained car is your best safety device.

LISTEN to your instructors comments and don't be afraid to ask lots of stupid questions. Once you start DE on a real racetrack, you will NEVER go back to driving around cones. It simply is not the same!

Have fun!!

Matt

Alpine 951, didja have to spill the beans about all the naked women at Lime Rock? Now the place will be crawling with other guys.

There's good runoff on some of the turns there, but not on others. A couple of the high speed turns, the Uphill and West Bend, have almost no runoff and a mistake at either of them can get you in big trouble.

Which isn't to say trouble will happen, you just have to stay within limits. Same as at NHIS - a fun place to drive, just be mindful of where not to push the envelope too much, as at any track -

Matt