KLA Industries New product-ADJ Rear Shock plus more.....
06-25-2003, 08:08 PM
#31
Race Director
1. Can these be adapted to the early 944?
2. Are these mounted with rubber bushings in the eyes or spherical bearings?
3. No reason these cannot be mounted up-side down is there?
4. Are the adjustments (compression/rebound) independent?
5. What are the valving rates (can others be selected)?
6. Have you had these on a shock dyno? If not, would you like to?
For those thinking these are pricey, all I can say is: ARE YOU NUTS???? Double adjustable dampers for $399 a pair? I have been looking at adapting Koni 8212 double adjustables to the rear of my race car. Those are about $400 each!.
Good job Scott!
2. Are these mounted with rubber bushings in the eyes or spherical bearings?
3. No reason these cannot be mounted up-side down is there?
4. Are the adjustments (compression/rebound) independent?
5. What are the valving rates (can others be selected)?
6. Have you had these on a shock dyno? If not, would you like to?
For those thinking these are pricey, all I can say is: ARE YOU NUTS???? Double adjustable dampers for $399 a pair? I have been looking at adapting Koni 8212 double adjustables to the rear of my race car. Those are about $400 each!.
Good job Scott!
06-26-2003, 02:46 AM
#32
Three Wheelin'
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I run the QA1's on my stang and geeze are they great very touchy as well. I have 12 ways and a few clicks makes a dramatic change. Still nothing like the adjustable carrerra shocks we use on the midget though. A place in indianapolis does those for us Advanced supension techniques
06-26-2003, 05:15 AM
#33
Rennlist Junkie Forever
I've got those shocks on my car (the HAL QA1).
They kinda suck to be honest.
Really... they're just OK at best.
They are way to stiff over the small stuff, and way to soft over the big stuff.
Further, what really sucks, is that although they have a large range of adjustment, the reality is that the usable range of adjustment is less than 1/2 turn. The rest of the adjustment is useless.
These are very poor calibrated shocks for the 944.
Like I said... they are just OK.
I'm looking to replace mine with something better here in the near future.
Try SummitRacing.com
And FWIW... the Koni Yellows aren't a whole lot better. Way to stiff on the rebound, and not near enough shock on the compression.
They kinda suck to be honest.
Really... they're just OK at best.
They are way to stiff over the small stuff, and way to soft over the big stuff.
Further, what really sucks, is that although they have a large range of adjustment, the reality is that the usable range of adjustment is less than 1/2 turn. The rest of the adjustment is useless.
These are very poor calibrated shocks for the 944.
Like I said... they are just OK.
I'm looking to replace mine with something better here in the near future.
Try SummitRacing.com
And FWIW... the Koni Yellows aren't a whole lot better. Way to stiff on the rebound, and not near enough shock on the compression.
06-26-2003, 05:22 AM
#34
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Oh yeah...
One more thing. These shocks will not clear the upper shock mount.. meaning that the shock body will hit the shock mount on the side resulting in a dented up shock.
Ask me how I know. <img src="http://www.tonygarcia.org/hal_qa1/1.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.tonygarcia.org/hal_qa1/2.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.tonygarcia.org/hal_qa1/3.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.tonygarcia.org/hal_qa1/4.jpg" alt=" - " />
One more thing. These shocks will not clear the upper shock mount.. meaning that the shock body will hit the shock mount on the side resulting in a dented up shock.
Ask me how I know. <img src="http://www.tonygarcia.org/hal_qa1/1.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.tonygarcia.org/hal_qa1/2.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.tonygarcia.org/hal_qa1/3.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.tonygarcia.org/hal_qa1/4.jpg" alt=" - " />
06-26-2003, 10:34 AM
#36
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From what I am reading, KLA has requested a more suitable valving from HAL for these shocks in order to make them well matched for the 944. Thus, the 12 way adjustment is fully usable throughout the entire range.
06-26-2003, 01:01 PM
#37
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Tony,
I am very impressed with your observations about the stock QA1 shocks. These were the same driving impressions we had when we started this process of developing both coil over and non-coil-over shocks.
I would like to make some guesses about your set-up and please correct me if I am wrong.
I would guess that you were running a shock that is set up for coil-over springs.
I would guess that you had bearings in the loop instead of rubber bushings.
I would guess that you are running a spring that is maybe a 140# 9” or higher that is a non-progressive rate.
I would guess that this shock is a standard off the shelf shock set up for sprint cars.
I would guess that an aftermarket group makes the mounting bushing.
Finally I would guess that you have either raced cars or have a large amount of seat time in your 944 to be able to pick up on the issues you have brought to light.
I would like to discuss each of your issues.
“They are way to stiff over the small stuff, and way to soft over the big stuff.”
This is an outstanding observation that most people would not be able to nail down. We found that with stock shocks the valving was set up for the wrong weight car. It was also set up for a race application where stiff over the small stuff is not a big issue. For a street application though it is a big deal. You will feel the small stuff in the seat of your pants and the car still won’t handle.
What we did to reduce this is to work with the technical group at the manufacturer to make sure we were ordering the proper shock for our application. We looked at the cars weight, the performance, and the set-up with most people still using their torsion bars in addition to the coil-over shocks. We came up with several things we do to reduce the “hard over small stuff” problems.
First we purchase shocks that are valved for aggressive street driving instead of sprint car applications. This will reduce the stiff over small stuff problems.
Second we do not run bearings in the loop, we install rubber bushings. The bushings will absorb the initial shock of the small bumps so the shock is not transmitted into the car chassis and to the seat of the driver. This made a big difference for guys like me who want to have a performing car but still want a comfortable ride.
Third we changed the springs length and # rate. This took several tries to get it right but we have found that the harder the spring the more you will feel the small stuff. Spring length also has an effect on the feel.
”Further, what really sucks, is that although they have a large range of adjustment, the reality is that the usable range of adjustment is less than 1/2 turn. The rest of the adjustment is useless.”
I also agree on this issue however, when we got the proper valving and the proper spring set up we found that settings a low as 3 and as high an 8 were usable on the street. When you get into an autocross or DE settings as high as 10 are usable. The lower settings are usable only if you are using the proper spring. Otherwise the car is way too bouncy. The same hold true for the higher settings. The wrong spring will make the higher settings almost knock you teeth out. With the proper spring you will have a larger selection of settings to use.
These are very poor calibrated shocks for the 944.
I fully agree that shocks that are direct off the shelf valved for sprint cars are not appropriate for the 944. That is why we spent so much time with the technical group to make sure we were purchasing the proper shock. A poor valved shock cannot be fixed no-matter what spring or setting you use.
One more thing. These shocks will not clear the upper shock mount. meaning that the shock body will hit the shock mount on the side resulting in a dented up shock.
As Scott said, we also found this on one of the 3 test cars we put shocks on. We have eliminated this by making adjustments to the steel inserts in our bushings. I would guess that you will have trouble getting stock shock to fit the upper mount now. It looks like your spacer was too short and when you tighten the bolt it pulls the upper mount together. That is what caused the rub on our test car. We had to redesign the upper bushings to keep this from happening and the problem went away.
Anyway to try and wrap this book up I do want to say again that I am very impressed that you picked up on these issues with the shocks because most drivers would know that it didn’t feel right but not be able to put their finger on precisely what was wrong. You hit every issue we found with stock racing shock right on the head. That is why we spent so much time working the shock selection and spring design instead of buying stock shocks and making them fit the car.
I hope this helps address you issues and please feel free to e-mail me to see if we can help you set your shocks up for your car.
Ken
I am very impressed with your observations about the stock QA1 shocks. These were the same driving impressions we had when we started this process of developing both coil over and non-coil-over shocks.
I would like to make some guesses about your set-up and please correct me if I am wrong.
I would guess that you were running a shock that is set up for coil-over springs.
I would guess that you had bearings in the loop instead of rubber bushings.
I would guess that you are running a spring that is maybe a 140# 9” or higher that is a non-progressive rate.
I would guess that this shock is a standard off the shelf shock set up for sprint cars.
I would guess that an aftermarket group makes the mounting bushing.
Finally I would guess that you have either raced cars or have a large amount of seat time in your 944 to be able to pick up on the issues you have brought to light.
I would like to discuss each of your issues.
“They are way to stiff over the small stuff, and way to soft over the big stuff.”
This is an outstanding observation that most people would not be able to nail down. We found that with stock shocks the valving was set up for the wrong weight car. It was also set up for a race application where stiff over the small stuff is not a big issue. For a street application though it is a big deal. You will feel the small stuff in the seat of your pants and the car still won’t handle.
What we did to reduce this is to work with the technical group at the manufacturer to make sure we were ordering the proper shock for our application. We looked at the cars weight, the performance, and the set-up with most people still using their torsion bars in addition to the coil-over shocks. We came up with several things we do to reduce the “hard over small stuff” problems.
First we purchase shocks that are valved for aggressive street driving instead of sprint car applications. This will reduce the stiff over small stuff problems.
Second we do not run bearings in the loop, we install rubber bushings. The bushings will absorb the initial shock of the small bumps so the shock is not transmitted into the car chassis and to the seat of the driver. This made a big difference for guys like me who want to have a performing car but still want a comfortable ride.
Third we changed the springs length and # rate. This took several tries to get it right but we have found that the harder the spring the more you will feel the small stuff. Spring length also has an effect on the feel.
”Further, what really sucks, is that although they have a large range of adjustment, the reality is that the usable range of adjustment is less than 1/2 turn. The rest of the adjustment is useless.”
I also agree on this issue however, when we got the proper valving and the proper spring set up we found that settings a low as 3 and as high an 8 were usable on the street. When you get into an autocross or DE settings as high as 10 are usable. The lower settings are usable only if you are using the proper spring. Otherwise the car is way too bouncy. The same hold true for the higher settings. The wrong spring will make the higher settings almost knock you teeth out. With the proper spring you will have a larger selection of settings to use.
These are very poor calibrated shocks for the 944.
I fully agree that shocks that are direct off the shelf valved for sprint cars are not appropriate for the 944. That is why we spent so much time with the technical group to make sure we were purchasing the proper shock. A poor valved shock cannot be fixed no-matter what spring or setting you use.
One more thing. These shocks will not clear the upper shock mount. meaning that the shock body will hit the shock mount on the side resulting in a dented up shock.
As Scott said, we also found this on one of the 3 test cars we put shocks on. We have eliminated this by making adjustments to the steel inserts in our bushings. I would guess that you will have trouble getting stock shock to fit the upper mount now. It looks like your spacer was too short and when you tighten the bolt it pulls the upper mount together. That is what caused the rub on our test car. We had to redesign the upper bushings to keep this from happening and the problem went away.
Anyway to try and wrap this book up I do want to say again that I am very impressed that you picked up on these issues with the shocks because most drivers would know that it didn’t feel right but not be able to put their finger on precisely what was wrong. You hit every issue we found with stock racing shock right on the head. That is why we spent so much time working the shock selection and spring design instead of buying stock shocks and making them fit the car.
I hope this helps address you issues and please feel free to e-mail me to see if we can help you set your shocks up for your car.
Ken
06-27-2003, 04:21 PM
#38
Race Director
Ken, can you please address these questions? If not, I'll just keep going down the Koni path.
1. Can these be adapted to the early 944?
2. Are these mounted with rubber bushings in the eyes or spherical bearings? (I see you have rubber bushings now - do you have a spherical bearing application available?)
3. No reason these cannot be mounted up-side down is there?
4. Are the adjustments (compression/rebound) independent? (I only see one adjuster)
5. What are the valving rates (can others be selected)? (If you're not willing to give this out, I'll just keep going down the Koni path - they publish this info).
1. Can these be adapted to the early 944?
2. Are these mounted with rubber bushings in the eyes or spherical bearings? (I see you have rubber bushings now - do you have a spherical bearing application available?)
3. No reason these cannot be mounted up-side down is there?
4. Are the adjustments (compression/rebound) independent? (I only see one adjuster)
5. What are the valving rates (can others be selected)? (If you're not willing to give this out, I'll just keep going down the Koni path - they publish this info).
06-27-2003, 05:02 PM
#39
Former Sponsor
Thread Starter
George,
I'll tackle a few and defer to Ken on the rest...
1) I looked at an early car yesterday. Looks like it'll fit but the early mounting will probably cover the adj ****.
2) It's a poly. No plans for bearing.
3) That would be fine.
4) Com/rebound are not independent-same **** does both.
5) Ken???
I'll tackle a few and defer to Ken on the rest...
1) I looked at an early car yesterday. Looks like it'll fit but the early mounting will probably cover the adj ****.
2) It's a poly. No plans for bearing.
3) That would be fine.
4) Com/rebound are not independent-same **** does both.
5) Ken???
06-27-2003, 05:17 PM
#40
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The valving specification was set by the manufacturer after we discussed the cars weight, the hp and the design of the suspension. I am not a valving expert but they are. I do not have all the specification at hand but can get them for you.
If you go down the Koni path try talking with Jason at Paragon Products. He carries the duel and quad adjustable shocks. I was down in TX last week to discuss the shocks with him and he showed me some really neet set-ups.
I think you are looking for a full race adjustable shocks. I think Jason said that the cheepest he sells coil-overs for is around $1200.00 a set but call him to verify.
Finally yes you can give me your specific valving specifications and I can have a set produced for you. I can also get the springs you want. You can custom order the set.
Our shocks are more for the DE/Autocross/sunday racer/daily driver type of car. please let me know if I can give you more information.
Ken
If you go down the Koni path try talking with Jason at Paragon Products. He carries the duel and quad adjustable shocks. I was down in TX last week to discuss the shocks with him and he showed me some really neet set-ups.
I think you are looking for a full race adjustable shocks. I think Jason said that the cheepest he sells coil-overs for is around $1200.00 a set but call him to verify.
Finally yes you can give me your specific valving specifications and I can have a set produced for you. I can also get the springs you want. You can custom order the set.
Our shocks are more for the DE/Autocross/sunday racer/daily driver type of car. please let me know if I can give you more information.
Ken
06-27-2003, 05:36 PM
#41
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Hi Ken,
I've also got the QA1 coil-overs shocks on my turboS.
I'm also using the poly bushings, with custom sleeves (to get the required 12/14mm) sizes.
I'm using simple washers to make up the width difference between the poly upper bushing vs stock upper bushing. I've also made my mount 'smaller' because I guess I didn't use enough washers
The only other problems I've found is with some rubbing on both the rear banana arm and on the transaxle oil-cooler loop.
Are you using 2.5" coils and the QA1 uppper(we'll actually lower) hat? How do you solve the rubbing issues?
I've also got the QA1 coil-overs shocks on my turboS.
I'm also using the poly bushings, with custom sleeves (to get the required 12/14mm) sizes.
I'm using simple washers to make up the width difference between the poly upper bushing vs stock upper bushing. I've also made my mount 'smaller' because I guess I didn't use enough washers
The only other problems I've found is with some rubbing on both the rear banana arm and on the transaxle oil-cooler loop.
Are you using 2.5" coils and the QA1 uppper(we'll actually lower) hat? How do you solve the rubbing issues?
06-27-2003, 09:43 PM
#42
Race Director
Ken and Scott:
Thanks for the replies. You're right, I'm looking for dampers for a dedicated race car. I also require double adjustment (independent). So, I don't think these will work for me. I was hoping however.....
I've been to Paragon and spoken with Jason before. He does have some really nice solutions, including some you don't hear about here such as full double adjustable (independent) coilover struts and more. In my case I'm going build my own double adjustable front struts and probably just work out the adaptation of the 8212 rears.
Thanks for the replies. You're right, I'm looking for dampers for a dedicated race car. I also require double adjustment (independent). So, I don't think these will work for me. I was hoping however.....
I've been to Paragon and spoken with Jason before. He does have some really nice solutions, including some you don't hear about here such as full double adjustable (independent) coilover struts and more. In my case I'm going build my own double adjustable front struts and probably just work out the adaptation of the 8212 rears.
