944 S2 Purchase advice for a Newbie
12-20-2002, 12:38 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
944 S2 Purchase advice for a Newbie
I'm new to the board, and looking to become a regular. To do this, I'm pretty sure that I need a Porsche. 
I'm currently looking at the 944 S2 coupe, and would appreciate any advice on this model. I've read the FAQ's on Pelican and Clark's Garage ad nauseum, but would appreciate any further information on this model.
One of the questions that I have is regarding price. Edmunds is saying that the coupes are in the range of $7.5-8k, this is low compared to what I've seen people asking. Is there a more accurate resource for estimating values on these cars?
Any comments or questions are definitely appreciated.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
-Jon
I'm currently looking at the 944 S2 coupe, and would appreciate any advice on this model. I've read the FAQ's on Pelican and Clark's Garage ad nauseum, but would appreciate any further information on this model.
One of the questions that I have is regarding price. Edmunds is saying that the coupes are in the range of $7.5-8k, this is low compared to what I've seen people asking. Is there a more accurate resource for estimating values on these cars?
Any comments or questions are definitely appreciated.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
-Jon
12-20-2002, 12:48 PM
#2
Race Director
Jon,
The biggest thing to check in a 944S2 is when or if the cam chain guide/tensioner has been replaced. Typically, this device is good for about 100k miles. The plastic/nylon guide that sits atop the tensioner cracks, you're in trouble.
-Z.
The biggest thing to check in a 944S2 is when or if the cam chain guide/tensioner has been replaced. Typically, this device is good for about 100k miles. The plastic/nylon guide that sits atop the tensioner cracks, you're in trouble.
-Z.
12-20-2002, 01:18 PM
#3
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Ya. What he said...
Records are important for these cars as well. Because you have 16 valves to fix instead of 8. Or like in my case when I got mine it didn't have any records. So everything got replaced, no questions. Belts, rollers, water pump, and chain pad (tensioner was ok). And ofcourse thinks to this site mainly I was able to do all that work myself.
Records are important for these cars as well. Because you have 16 valves to fix instead of 8. Or like in my case when I got mine it didn't have any records. So everything got replaced, no questions. Belts, rollers, water pump, and chain pad (tensioner was ok). And ofcourse thinks to this site mainly I was able to do all that work myself.
12-20-2002, 02:01 PM
#4
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
check out the cpivalueguide.
The price of all 944s depends on what was done.
Two years ago my friend was contemplating selling his 300zx and buying a 944 turbo. there was one advertised at about 15k which was a lot more than book.
turns out the car had new clutch, shocks, belts, rollers, brakes, 17" rims etc. he fixed up his ZX because we thought the price was high compared to what I paid for my S2 with 56k miles.
Make a long story short, in the two years and 15k I've owned my S2 I did the same things clutch 1200, shocks 750, control arms 300, 17" rims (tires alone go for 950), belts and rollers 1000, I have about 4k in parts not counting the tires and rims, about 21k total into the car in two years and 15k.
you can get a car with about 120k on it for 7-9k, but be prepared to put the same $$ i put into mine, and have a car with either 120k, rebuilt mechanicals, or rebuilt body. to get a maintained, unmolested 944 with the work needed every 60-70k will cost a lot over book.
Thats why the books aren't representative of the market.
Here is an example
nobody wants to pay over 4k for a 944 na. No one on this board will let you pay over 4k for an NA.
Compare the guys on this board that paid under 4k for their 83-85 944 to my brother. he bought an 84 with 34k on it in june of 01. now 45k miles later (79k on it now) he put about 2k in maintenance (water pump, radiator, belts, tune up) foget about the 17" rims and tires for the moment. he paid 7500 for his car. today the car is worth under 4k according to board members. He drove the car 45k miles and all he did is replace the belts, radiator, and original (old style) water pump.
It cost him a lot less to drive the 7500 car than it cost other board members to drive their 4000 car.
If you bought my S2 you would pay a premium, but get new shocks,brakes, cam tensioner ramp 2k, tires 1k, clutch 15k, belts 15k, rollers 12k, control arms/ball joints 300mi, etc and have a car with no paintwork ever, etc. I arrived at my asking price by basically taking my purchase price and adding 1/2 the parts price.
Thats why the 7-8k book value is less than people are asking.
If you are interested in my car contact me. my friend with a 328 convertible is threatening to buy a CLK in march, and with the baby due in Feb. I will be getting rid of my RX7 convertible and either the 944 or my Firebird Convertible, and look for a 325/328 convertible
good luck
The price of all 944s depends on what was done.
Two years ago my friend was contemplating selling his 300zx and buying a 944 turbo. there was one advertised at about 15k which was a lot more than book.
turns out the car had new clutch, shocks, belts, rollers, brakes, 17" rims etc. he fixed up his ZX because we thought the price was high compared to what I paid for my S2 with 56k miles.
Make a long story short, in the two years and 15k I've owned my S2 I did the same things clutch 1200, shocks 750, control arms 300, 17" rims (tires alone go for 950), belts and rollers 1000, I have about 4k in parts not counting the tires and rims, about 21k total into the car in two years and 15k.
you can get a car with about 120k on it for 7-9k, but be prepared to put the same $$ i put into mine, and have a car with either 120k, rebuilt mechanicals, or rebuilt body. to get a maintained, unmolested 944 with the work needed every 60-70k will cost a lot over book.
Thats why the books aren't representative of the market.
Here is an example
nobody wants to pay over 4k for a 944 na. No one on this board will let you pay over 4k for an NA.
Compare the guys on this board that paid under 4k for their 83-85 944 to my brother. he bought an 84 with 34k on it in june of 01. now 45k miles later (79k on it now) he put about 2k in maintenance (water pump, radiator, belts, tune up) foget about the 17" rims and tires for the moment. he paid 7500 for his car. today the car is worth under 4k according to board members. He drove the car 45k miles and all he did is replace the belts, radiator, and original (old style) water pump.
It cost him a lot less to drive the 7500 car than it cost other board members to drive their 4000 car.
If you bought my S2 you would pay a premium, but get new shocks,brakes, cam tensioner ramp 2k, tires 1k, clutch 15k, belts 15k, rollers 12k, control arms/ball joints 300mi, etc and have a car with no paintwork ever, etc. I arrived at my asking price by basically taking my purchase price and adding 1/2 the parts price.
Thats why the 7-8k book value is less than people are asking.
If you are interested in my car contact me. my friend with a 328 convertible is threatening to buy a CLK in march, and with the baby due in Feb. I will be getting rid of my RX7 convertible and either the 944 or my Firebird Convertible, and look for a 325/328 convertible
good luck
12-20-2002, 02:28 PM
#5
Race Director
Tom,
While what you say makes sense, it's not always a reality. IE: there's always someone out there with a car in excellent condition that will sell it for less than premium. Why? They simply want to get rid of it or don't understand the potential their car has. Often, they are ready for another toy, and their 944 is in the way of this.
Case in point: my car. I paid $8,000.00 for it a year and a half ago. The guy was into Harleys and needed the cash. Car is in excellent shape: dealer maintained! He put in a new clutch, exhaust, windshield, alternator...yadaa yadda... a year or so before he sold it to me. Granted, my car has high miles (almost 130,000 on the clock now), he still could have sold it for $9000.00 or more!
Hopefully, your car will sell for near what you're asking for it, but don't be surprised if it will take a long time. There's always someone out there whose willing to sell their car for a lower price just to move it. I've put several thousand dollars into my car maintaining it, yet I would still not ask for a premium, especially if there's a 968 for sale that I'd be interested in.
Bottom line: it's all about market demmand, and how much people are willing to pay for these toys!
Sorry for rambling,
-Z.
While what you say makes sense, it's not always a reality. IE: there's always someone out there with a car in excellent condition that will sell it for less than premium. Why? They simply want to get rid of it or don't understand the potential their car has. Often, they are ready for another toy, and their 944 is in the way of this.
Case in point: my car. I paid $8,000.00 for it a year and a half ago. The guy was into Harleys and needed the cash. Car is in excellent shape: dealer maintained! He put in a new clutch, exhaust, windshield, alternator...yadaa yadda... a year or so before he sold it to me. Granted, my car has high miles (almost 130,000 on the clock now), he still could have sold it for $9000.00 or more!
Hopefully, your car will sell for near what you're asking for it, but don't be surprised if it will take a long time. There's always someone out there whose willing to sell their car for a lower price just to move it. I've put several thousand dollars into my car maintaining it, yet I would still not ask for a premium, especially if there's a 968 for sale that I'd be interested in.
Bottom line: it's all about market demmand, and how much people are willing to pay for these toys!
Sorry for rambling,
-Z.
12-20-2002, 02:59 PM
#6
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,956
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see a lot of people doing this... adding the cost of parts/labor to their asking/selling price. To me, personally, this makes about as much sense as going out for dinner, and demanding a refund/price break just because you went to the bathroom and made a deposit. 
Upgrades make even less sense to me (vehicles are clearly worth more in stock trim, it's a continual issue). Price an 'upgrade' to the matching stock bit, and stock will always cost more - so why do people who were cheap (tongue in cheek here) and bought something for less ask for more money?
These are old vehicles - they require some maintenance and that maint. can be rather expensive. If you do your homework, you'll find a car with all the required updates for a 'reasonable' sum. My 951 is case in point, the belts, water pump, rolles, etc had been done 6 k before I bought the car. It has an original clutch (though it's strong for now), and would probably be a 8.5~9/10 on interior, exterior and mechanical. I paid less than I've seen anyone ask, and right at the bottom end of this years suggested value.
I understand that people will only spend what they think is right, and there are a million suckers out there just waiting for someoen to take their money - but why be one of those suckers?
As for realistic prices...looks like $7k is the bottom end with $15 being the high end. I'd imagine that most reasonable cars will be about $9k and the right deal would happen for between 8 and 9k for a well maintained, fairly stock car (stock means a LOT to me - but adjust accordingly with the upgrades you might want to roll into the purchase price).
Good luck wiht your hunting...
Took me 3~4 months before I found the 2nd great deal (first one was right when I first started looking and I didn't know how good of a deal it actually was - oops). <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Upgrades make even less sense to me (vehicles are clearly worth more in stock trim, it's a continual issue). Price an 'upgrade' to the matching stock bit, and stock will always cost more - so why do people who were cheap (tongue in cheek here) and bought something for less ask for more money? These are old vehicles - they require some maintenance and that maint. can be rather expensive. If you do your homework, you'll find a car with all the required updates for a 'reasonable' sum. My 951 is case in point, the belts, water pump, rolles, etc had been done 6 k before I bought the car. It has an original clutch (though it's strong for now), and would probably be a 8.5~9/10 on interior, exterior and mechanical. I paid less than I've seen anyone ask, and right at the bottom end of this years suggested value.
I understand that people will only spend what they think is right, and there are a million suckers out there just waiting for someoen to take their money - but why be one of those suckers?
As for realistic prices...looks like $7k is the bottom end with $15 being the high end. I'd imagine that most reasonable cars will be about $9k and the right deal would happen for between 8 and 9k for a well maintained, fairly stock car (stock means a LOT to me - but adjust accordingly with the upgrades you might want to roll into the purchase price).
Good luck wiht your hunting...
Took me 3~4 months before I found the 2nd great deal (first one was right when I first started looking and I didn't know how good of a deal it actually was - oops). <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
12-20-2002, 03:36 PM
#7
Race Car
Edmunds gives prices for cars that are in typical condition for their age, very few Porsches are in the condition that they consider "normal" for an 11-13 year old car (unless you are looking for a beater). Tom R's suggestion, CPI, seems to be a good source of information, some people here swear by the numbers found in Excellence. I wouldn't waste my time looking at anything under $7-8000.
[quote] Here is an example
nobody wants to pay over 4k for a 944 na. No one on this board will let you pay over 4k for an NA. <hr></blockquote>
Then again, I wouldn't waste my time looking at an NA under $5000 either (was offered $6800 a year and a half ago @ 95,000 miles). Keep looking, you'll find a good deal, but if you base what you are looking for on what Edmunds or Kelly say, you may let a good deal get away.
[quote] Here is an example
nobody wants to pay over 4k for a 944 na. No one on this board will let you pay over 4k for an NA. <hr></blockquote>
Then again, I wouldn't waste my time looking at an NA under $5000 either (was offered $6800 a year and a half ago @ 95,000 miles). Keep looking, you'll find a good deal, but if you base what you are looking for on what Edmunds or Kelly say, you may let a good deal get away.
Trending Topics
12-20-2002, 03:40 PM
#8
I set out two years ago to find the best 951 or S2 I could find. I drove a lot of bad cars and passed on a few that were probably OK. After two months I found a great S2 for $8500 just three miles from my house. The moral of the story - stay flexible, don't not fall in love, get a thorough pre-purchase inspection (unless you are very familiar with 944 mechanicals), and when you do find the car, buy it quick.
S2's are the hen's teeth of the 944 world. There are not a lot of mechanics familiar with the 16 valve engine. Concerns over the cam tensioner are valid, but many owners of other 944 models use the issue to bash the S2. Ridiculous. It needs to be inspected and replaced if necessary at regular intervals - just like lots of other parts.
Remember this - just because 944s are inexpensive does not mean that they are cheap. Expect to spend money almost immediately after purchasing your car just to fix what the PPI finds. A clutch job will run you nearly $1000, timing belts, rollers,and a water pump can be more. But it is worth it
S2's are the hen's teeth of the 944 world. There are not a lot of mechanics familiar with the 16 valve engine. Concerns over the cam tensioner are valid, but many owners of other 944 models use the issue to bash the S2. Ridiculous. It needs to be inspected and replaced if necessary at regular intervals - just like lots of other parts.
Remember this - just because 944s are inexpensive does not mean that they are cheap. Expect to spend money almost immediately after purchasing your car just to fix what the PPI finds. A clutch job will run you nearly $1000, timing belts, rollers,and a water pump can be more. But it is worth it
12-20-2002, 05:40 PM
#9
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Ralph, Brian, and Z
How many miles were on your car when you boght it?
How old were the shocks, clutch, belts/rollers, etc.
Any paintwork on your car?
how much did you pay?
Brian,
Yor argument lacks merit. A car with work done is not worth the same amount an a car that needs work.
To many purchasers low miles, and a newer model year are worth $$$.
It's the old argument pay me now or pay me later.
Why dont you tell me what you think my car is worth, without the 17" rims.
How many miles were on your car when you boght it?
How old were the shocks, clutch, belts/rollers, etc.
Any paintwork on your car?
how much did you pay?
Brian,
Yor argument lacks merit. A car with work done is not worth the same amount an a car that needs work.
To many purchasers low miles, and a newer model year are worth $$$.
It's the old argument pay me now or pay me later.
Why dont you tell me what you think my car is worth, without the 17" rims.
12-20-2002, 11:57 PM
#10
My car had 112k when I bought it. It had new clutch, ac, and tires. While it could have probably gone another 10k before needing another timing belt, I had that done just after I purchased, along with a few other things that quickly added up to $2k. Some of this I probably could have deferred, but I wrapped those costs into the car loan.
For reference, this year the car has cost me just under $1,000 in routine maintenance and repair.
It is in fabulous condition with no bodywork and complete records back to the bill of lading that brought it from the port to Raleigh, NC! It would have taken first place in the 944 category at the local PCA shine and show concours a few months back if not for this 944 S2 cab that the guy never drives except to go to the darn concours!
For reference, this year the car has cost me just under $1,000 in routine maintenance and repair.
It is in fabulous condition with no bodywork and complete records back to the bill of lading that brought it from the port to Raleigh, NC! It would have taken first place in the 944 category at the local PCA shine and show concours a few months back if not for this 944 S2 cab that the guy never drives except to go to the darn concours!
12-21-2002, 06:19 AM
#11
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Pasadena, CA very soon to be Portland, OR
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well from what I can tell you about my buying experience back in January the listed prices on most every S2 I saw was above 10 with some as high as 13-14k. I found mine listed at 10 and talked it down to 9. It had just had a valve job (taken care of because of blown headgasket) with a full belt job and waterpump. Unfortunately no records but the car had apparently been dealer maintained for the most part before the second owner bought the car. Second owner got car for a steal, had a little fun with it and then decided to sell it. His stable included a brand new jag and BMW along with a 50k SUV.
After this I have ended up putting nearly 2 grand into the car in the first year doing odds and ends. Did the shocks and both control arms, radio, and front brakes among other things. If you find a car that has been very well maintained then you will end up doing fine paying the premium because maintenance is expensive on these cars. Good Luck to you finding a good example.
After this I have ended up putting nearly 2 grand into the car in the first year doing odds and ends. Did the shocks and both control arms, radio, and front brakes among other things. If you find a car that has been very well maintained then you will end up doing fine paying the premium because maintenance is expensive on these cars. Good Luck to you finding a good example.
12-21-2002, 12:06 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thanks guys, the advice so far has been very helpful. Hopefully, I'll have a car by April, so that I can meet some of you at the track this spring.
Happy Holidays.
-Jon
Happy Holidays.
-Jon
12-21-2002, 12:37 PM
#13
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Ralph,
Thats 10,500 out the door for a car with 112k. how much for the same car with 40k less miles?
Rihaa, thats 11,000, out the door, but how many miles on the car when you bought it?
The rims on my car are selling for 1300 on ebay. If I sell the car for 1,000 less with the original very clean design 90's and keep the 17"rims that brings my asking price to 12,800.
thats ralphs car with 40k less miles for an asking price thats 2300 more than he put into his car, and I think I have about 1500 in other new parts like shocks (550 parts) alternator (180 part), etc. again, how much is the mileage worth?
Brian, I'm curious to hear what you paid etc. so we can get a more complete S2 price guide going here.
There is no better way to see what a car is worth than to take actual sales, and move from there.
Thats 10,500 out the door for a car with 112k. how much for the same car with 40k less miles?
Rihaa, thats 11,000, out the door, but how many miles on the car when you bought it?
The rims on my car are selling for 1300 on ebay. If I sell the car for 1,000 less with the original very clean design 90's and keep the 17"rims that brings my asking price to 12,800.
thats ralphs car with 40k less miles for an asking price thats 2300 more than he put into his car, and I think I have about 1500 in other new parts like shocks (550 parts) alternator (180 part), etc. again, how much is the mileage worth?
Brian, I'm curious to hear what you paid etc. so we can get a more complete S2 price guide going here.
There is no better way to see what a car is worth than to take actual sales, and move from there.
12-21-2002, 05:26 PM
#14
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,956
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]Originally posted by Tom R.:
<strong>
How many miles were on your car when you boght it?
How old were the shocks, clutch, belts/rollers, etc.
Any paintwork on your car?
how much did you pay?
Brian,
Yor argument lacks merit. A car with work done is not worth the same amount an a car that needs work.
To many purchasers low miles, and a newer model year are worth $$$.
It's the old argument pay me now or pay me later.
Why dont you tell me what you think my car is worth, without the 17" rims.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm NOT in an S2 - so the direct compairson doesn't work with me (86 951)
109k miles, shocks (non-adjustable/oem units) were the oldest at 22k miles, belts/rollers/water pump 6k prior and the clutch is thought to be original (prior owner x2 didn't provide records). Original paint with the standard/occasional rock chips. Interior was flawed only in a few dash-cracks (seat bolster didn't even have hardly any wear - it's weird - possibly a replacement). I paid $5800, $6k with the PPI and I covered transportation costs for the owner (who drove it to me) to get home. On the low end of average - but still within the publicly stated averages. $200 in ball joints right away (for immediate need) and I'll do ~$500 in steering updates come spring to have a perfect car (well - till something else pops up - you know the deal.. )
My argument wasn't about work done/not done - it's about sellers hyping AFTERMARKET work done - usually without documentation (was installed at home). To me, after many years of dealing with motorcycles, that means the meat-head worked on it at home and I'm probably going to have to replace fasteners and who knows what cobled things I'm going to find. Aftermarket parts do NOT mean it's worth more money - and smart buyers understand/calculate that. Shocks, clutch, braided fuel and brake lines - most people see that as good so they might retain some value. Chips, boost enhancer, ported head, exhaust mods - those are most certainly questionable and I'd never buy a car based on those merits (unless it were a racecar) and I doubt many informed buyers would allow those costs to be included.
As for what your car's worth... to me, probably $7k (as in I'll give you that money right now). But it's worth Exactly what someone's willing to offer you for it. Find someone who's looking to buy their first P-car and hasn't done their homework, doesn't want additional hassle, or any other of a number of posibilities and you'd get within $500 of your asking price.
You're right, either pay now, or pay later... but if I pay later, I can make more money with my money to ofset the later payments (so I might need a clutch next year - my $1000 will earn me a couple hundred dollars by then). Within reason, always pay as little up-front as possible and take the largest payment at one time.
Everyone's willing to pay a different sum and call it a deal.. I think my $6k price was a deal - and there's a new-owner on the list who was estatic at buying the same car for $18k (lower miles, different region). I know that when I sell, I'm targeting P-car owners - they're more accepting of higher prices than Joe Public.
Anyway, <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> to all... I hope no one's offended by my comments/thoughts - it's just a friendly debate where I'm trying to defend a different standpoint. Not looking to step on toes. <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
<strong>
How many miles were on your car when you boght it?
How old were the shocks, clutch, belts/rollers, etc.
Any paintwork on your car?
how much did you pay?
Brian,
Yor argument lacks merit. A car with work done is not worth the same amount an a car that needs work.
To many purchasers low miles, and a newer model year are worth $$$.
It's the old argument pay me now or pay me later.
Why dont you tell me what you think my car is worth, without the 17" rims.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm NOT in an S2 - so the direct compairson doesn't work with me (86 951)
109k miles, shocks (non-adjustable/oem units) were the oldest at 22k miles, belts/rollers/water pump 6k prior and the clutch is thought to be original (prior owner x2 didn't provide records). Original paint with the standard/occasional rock chips. Interior was flawed only in a few dash-cracks (seat bolster didn't even have hardly any wear - it's weird - possibly a replacement). I paid $5800, $6k with the PPI and I covered transportation costs for the owner (who drove it to me) to get home. On the low end of average - but still within the publicly stated averages. $200 in ball joints right away (for immediate need) and I'll do ~$500 in steering updates come spring to have a perfect car (well - till something else pops up - you know the deal..
)My argument wasn't about work done/not done - it's about sellers hyping AFTERMARKET work done - usually without documentation (was installed at home). To me, after many years of dealing with motorcycles, that means the meat-head worked on it at home and I'm probably going to have to replace fasteners and who knows what cobled things I'm going to find. Aftermarket parts do NOT mean it's worth more money - and smart buyers understand/calculate that. Shocks, clutch, braided fuel and brake lines - most people see that as good so they might retain some value. Chips, boost enhancer, ported head, exhaust mods - those are most certainly questionable and I'd never buy a car based on those merits (unless it were a racecar) and I doubt many informed buyers would allow those costs to be included.
As for what your car's worth... to me, probably $7k (as in I'll give you that money right now). But it's worth Exactly what someone's willing to offer you for it. Find someone who's looking to buy their first P-car and hasn't done their homework, doesn't want additional hassle, or any other of a number of posibilities and you'd get within $500 of your asking price.
You're right, either pay now, or pay later... but if I pay later, I can make more money with my money to ofset the later payments (so I might need a clutch next year - my $1000 will earn me a couple hundred dollars by then). Within reason, always pay as little up-front as possible and take the largest payment at one time.
Everyone's willing to pay a different sum and call it a deal.. I think my $6k price was a deal - and there's a new-owner on the list who was estatic at buying the same car for $18k (lower miles, different region). I know that when I sell, I'm targeting P-car owners - they're more accepting of higher prices than Joe Public.
Anyway, <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> to all... I hope no one's offended by my comments/thoughts - it's just a friendly debate where I'm trying to defend a different standpoint. Not looking to step on toes.
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />