Robby

Yeah, I will agree that SCC has become a pretty good magazine- they've even been including a small amount of Euro cars in their magazine for the last few years too. I like the way they've been testing stuff as of late- they're very thorough, and do a good job of documenting before and after runs. I especially appreciate the big brake kit tests where a simple "...yes, the Stop-U-Fast Big Brake Kit DEFINATELY added more braking power for our project BIG DADDY RICE MONSTER- but, will it be enough for the serious engine upgrades we will be doing over the next few issues?" W/out some 80-0, 100-0, or even 60-0 tests, comparing before and after, the whole test really won't be of too much value- well, maybe a little, but, SCC has been going the extra mile in this regard, and it's very much appreciated. Oh well, enough for me- it's time for some <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" />

Danno

just said the Supras beat him by ~3secs- I can only assume that both cars were pretty much maxed out (driver-wise) and had better than stock tires(?). Danno- what have you done performance-wise? Have you just done chips? Do the Supras that are beating you run ANY mods? "

We've all got pretty moderately modified cars. I've got:

• Stg.2 Turbo @ 15psi
• MAF-4 kit w/K&N
• custom-chips & ARC-2 adjuster
• BBS Race wheels & Yokohama A032R tires
• Ground-control front coilovers w/350lb springs
• Bilstein Sport dampers all around
• Weltmeister 28.6/22mm adjustable swaybars

So overall, I've got about +100-125hp more than stock and a lot more grip. Total costs about $10k

The SupraTTs on the other hand have:

• BPU upgrade (Basic Power Upgrades) - manual boost-controller, FCD (Fuel-Cut Defenser, turns off overboost-protection), 3" downpipe
• Wheels & sticky rubber

This brings them up from 325hp to 425hp for about $500 in parts, it's simply sick! In stock trim, most tests place them at 4.9-5.1s in 0-60 & 13.1-13.3s in 1/4-mile, an extra 100hp is only going to have them pull away even more. Don't know how C&D got a 4.6s 0-60 time, must've have been a ringer.

Since they already corner faster than me in stock trim, we both raise the cornering limit about the same amount. I might be in the 1.05g range and they're at 1.1g so the gap is constant.

There's just no competing handling-wise with something that has dual-wishbone suspension all around. I'm actually toying (pun intended) with the idea of finding a totaled SupraTT and grafting the suspension onto my 951.

Robby

Danno-

THAT would be cool- Chris Cervelli told me that one reason the E36 M3's quieter than 951s is b/c of their multi-link susp- I've always thought about trying to do something like that since then. Of course, there's no way I could do it myself, nor afford to have someone do it for me. So, you're saying we can't compete w/the double wishbone (or multi-link)?- you also said you could run over the 928's(?). How would a stock 928 do at Willow? I assume the best would be the GTS, as you had described them before as having "concrete filled shocks." On the street I assume the GT or S4 would be best- I'm not too up on all of their stats, except that either one would destroy a Turbo S in straightline accel- add chips to the Turbo S though and you should have a contest- I BELIEVE the 928s got heavier each year (like the Supra and pretty much EVERY car out there) w/the GTS being the heaviest-it also had the most power, but it never seemed to really run better straight line #'s- oh well, just curious about how they do- have you ever driven one? How do you think you could do at willow w/a stock Turbo S, and what was your best time again? Was it 1:37 or below? Even so, that's 4 full seconds faster than a stock Turbo S, and w/100+ extra HP, plus susp upgrades, etc... A 1:37 is approaching Viper GTS times- I think they were 1:35- what about 993TT and 996TT's? I'm starting to wish for a Supra again- I've gone through short phases w/several cars- I always liked the RX-7TT better than the Supra though- the Supra weighs too much, but you can really get some power out of it for little $$$...

Danno

It's not really a clear-cut answer comparing multi-link suspensions with our simple suspensions. Under perfectly smooth surfaces, there's not much of a difference because you can simply stiffen up the 951's spring-rates to reduce the detrimental camber-loss under body-roll. But the real issue is what kind handling can you get with a decent ride. That's when the double-wishbone suspensions really shine, because they can be softly sprung for good grip in the bumpy mountain twisties, yet still have good camber curves for fast sweepers as well. But as you noticed before, the M3 has a superbe suspension.

If I was to get a 928, it would be the GTS or S4; the latest and most powerful incarnations. I also like the pointier shark nose and the flared fenders. In fact, I will probably make a carbon-fibre dorsal fin and put it on top. Maybe even some fins poking out the doors as well!

As for bench-racing all these cars, it's tough to figure out where the car ends and the driver begins. I'm sure if Derek Bell or Shuie were to drive my car around Willow Springs, they'd be faster than me for sure, but the amount is uncertain. That's the basis of the <a href="http://www.opentrackchallenge.com" target="_blank">Open Track Challenge</a>! No what ifs, ands or buts, just bring it out, duke it out, and see how everything stacks up. I've got both a SupraTT and RX-7TT in my class as well as several generations of M3s as well (no 928s, though) . So it will be very interesting to see what the results are after a week of racing on a variety of tracks.

keith

Danno - I've been wondering for a while now, why do you stick with the 951? I mean, you could easily step up to something other, right? What keeps you in the old Porsche?

Serious - I'm genuinely interested!

LastV8

As the years went by the 928 did get heavier and heavier. Mark Anderson is running his 6.5L stroked 928 in the Speedvision series in GT2R and I believe he's got the weight under 3000lbs (2600 comes to mind). Anyway, he's faster than everything else in his class and equally competitive with the new 996's in his class. At Willowsprings a few weeks ago he lost to only one and that was on a mistake he made. He'll be running there again tomorrow.

The most coveted 928 besides the GTS is actually not the S4 but the GT since it had better cams, and gearing for quicker acceleration. Wasn't necessarily lighter though. With what I know now though, I'd opt for an 86.5 S, S4 or GT, pull the engine and have either of two possible things done for big HP gain. Supercharge, or stroke. The stroker kits that Devek and Mark A. are building routinely put 400-410rwhp down. A stock engine with bolt on superchargers a few hp short of that. There is one complete rebuilt (951 pistons, 7:1 compression, 10lbs boost) and supercharged 928 running around though that just dynoed at 490rwhp and 510lbs of torque(stock headers/exhaust). The owner says it's really undriveable until he gets some seriously wide rubber on the car.

<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Danno

"Danno - I've been wondering for a while now, why do you stick with the 951? I mean, you could easily step up to something other, right? What keeps you in the old Porsche?"

Hmmm, I've been thinking about that myself actually....

Cars, and especially track/race cars, are commodity items. You can get car-X for Y-amounts of money that will give Z-level of performance at the track. Fine, no big deal and team-owners and drivers throw away the car at the end of the season. I'm kinda like that too in that I see the 951 as being a tool I use to accomplish a goal (go fast at the track, go get groceries, etc.) Sure I can accomplish those very same goals with some other cars for less money with better performance. But here's what I'm thinking:

1. COMMUNITY: Since the cars are commodity items, the biggest factor is probably the community. I've had <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/951_racerx/RiceSupra.jpg" target="_blank">Supras</a>, RX-7s and Mustangs and there's a certain type of group that drives those cars. Even within the Porsche group, there are different <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=006001" target="_blank">types of Porsche owners</a>. So far, I've found that the 924/944/951/968 drivers have been the one I enjoy hanging out with the best!!!

2. UNIQUENESS: Having grown up next to Silicon Valley, it's easy to get lost in the quagmire of humanity driving clone cars. So the 951 has an 'aura' of exclusivity and performance. Regardless of it's actual performance, I like to have the upper hand on the ricers. In fact, my 951 and I project 'aura' to such an extent, that they never even try to mess with me, unlike the other hapless Mustang & F-body owners who constantly have bumblebees pestering them and nipping at their heels.

3. GUILT: I come from a third-world country (where average income is $200/yr) so possessions make me feel guilty. Having two cars is enough, getting a third would simply be obscene! Thus, I prefer to live simply and spend my time acquiring enjoyable experiences and wonderful memories.

4. TECHNO: Another factor is I'm getting old and set in my ways. I know my 951 like the back of my hand. I guess the thought of learning something new about a new car and trying to figure it out as well as I know the 951 is a little intimidating.

Now as I get more into racing and get hooked on the <a href="http://www.nsxfiles.com/sears_point_2000.htm" target="_blank">go-fast crack-pipe</a>, I may have to pick up a better-performing-car-that-costs-less track weapon. We'll see what the results of the <a href="http://www.opentrackchallenge.com" target="_blank">OTC</a> are and go from there...

keith

Danno, don't you feel that the "better performing car that cost less" are really "better performing cars that cost less to modify because the modern technology is there, hence the higher initial buy-in"? What I mean is, sure, a $20K Supra cost less to mod than a $6-7K 951, because it already has modern engine management, efficient turbo, etc., etc? Am I way out in left field here?

I can see the 944 series suspension sticking point, and the relatively large turn radius, etc..

I think about making lateral moves to reduce the $ burden of goodies, but can't quite seem to get as excited with the whole package in terms of another car for the same money. I guess I've had the 951 long enough to get kinda homey with it.

I was wondering what your reactions to the issue were, as I can't quite identify what makes it ok for me to stick with mine instead of going to something newer, with more aftermarket support, etc.... All in all, it makes a GOOD PACKAGE, I think, especially for the investment... (at least mine does, however, the $3000 for engine management and $3000 for paint in the future are going to hurt, I can tell already...)

Thanks for giving me your thoughts on that.