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[quote]Originally posted by Bill:
<strong>Control Arms

I am deffinately going to get the Charley Arms.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Macho art, methinks - very sexy! Oh, and functional too

[quote]<strong>Shocks

Want adjustable spring perches to be able to dial in an exact corner balance.</strong><hr></blockquote>

While it may make the job easier, corner balance can be pretty precise with the factory adjustments. Unless you're using 11/10ths of the car, I doubt you'd notice a difference. [hey, wait, don't we sell these ] The real advantage lies in the adjustability/lowering and the options and ease of changing spring rates.

[quote]<strong>Want adjustable dampening for a spirited drive or possible track day. Then soften for daily use.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just to be clear, shock adjustment at the point that you are looking to do is not going to return the Caddy-like ride when turned full soft. In the case of Koni Sports, they start quite a bit stiffer than stock, and are adjustable nearly 100% from that. Also, most shocks will be adjustable in rebound only, so the compression remains the same no matter. Not a bad thing, just something to remember - sport shocks change everything - for the good

[quote]<strong>Looked at the "cut the stock strut" with slip in adj spring perch and it just rubs me the wrong way. I tend to be a little ****.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But you save $100 per strut...

Awe, cummon - you don't like taking a hacksaw and drill to your finely crafted German sports car? I can empathize, but not sympathize - as my favorite Porsche specialty tools are a plasma cutter, a hammer and an air cutoff tool. If it makes you feel better, I can do them for you

[quote]<strong>Leda's, dont know price.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Contact Karl at Racer's Edge - 865-675-8285

[quote]<strong>JRZ's are currently top of list but VERY pricey, and they dont make a rear that is not coil over.<hr></blockquote></strong>

They come with threaded bodies, but you don't have to run the coil-over hardware - still legal for classes not allowing coil-overs. Same with rear Koni coil-overs, et al.

[quote]<strong>Dont know what Koni offers other than the cut in version.<hr></blockquote></strong>

The Koni Sport cut version is for the front only. There's also the 8742-1007S double-adjustable coil-over front strut (custom valved, primarily a racing application)... these would mate to 3012 rear coil-overs. Then there's the new kid on the block - the Koni 28 series racing dampers. Coil-overs front and rear... very serious stuff... competes with JRZ, Moton, Penske, etc.

[quote]<strong>Torsion Bars

Solid or Hollow, I need input on the difference.<hr></blockquote></strong>

Drivers/racers report that the hollow bars react quicker than solid - stands to reason, as a portion of the "spring" affects the unsprung weight... unsprung weight affects the reaction speed. Also lowers overall vehicle weight by ~10 lbs, comparatively. It may take a very experienced driver to notice the difference, and take advantage of it.

Good Luck!

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Steve Cooper

Bil,

Sometime we should get together and swap cars. Our cars seem to run about the same horsepower so on that comparison they should feel similar. But suspension-wise I think you'd like the set-up I run. It would certainly give you an interesting perspective.

Up front, I run 275# H&R springs over Koni Sport adjustables (old style when still available for 951s) with a beefy Weltmeister sway bar. On the rear I run adjustable Koni's, with stock sport torsion bars and a Weltmeister sway bar. The sways are adjusted stiff as are the shocks.

The suspension is very streetable, but still very stiff, and firm and flat on the track with Dunlop s8000 (not a great rack tire)

If you want to try and plan a get-together to see how this set-up feels, let me know...

Cheers,

Steve

Russ Murphy

While agreeing that coilovers are unnecessary for your stated usage, I will have to say that leaving the torsion bars in and adding coilovers with "helper springs" is the worst of both worlds. You've got to reindex the torsion bars the get the ride height right ($$$$$$$ or <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> ). And then what happens if the corner weights aren't right. More <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> or $$$$$$$. I say nuke 'em if you're going in there. This from someone running the stock torsion bars with M030 968 coilover helpers.

Turbo Fanatic

Russ, other than the cost associated with re-indexing torsion bars, how do you like the 968 MO30 rear shocks with helper spring? Do you have the factory spring? I think it has a wheel rate of 50-75 pounds. What torsion bars are you running?

Thanks
James

Also in St Louis area...

snappy

I use to race modified saloon cars bac in South Africa. sponsoship there aint big at all. and from my experiance i have to aggree that suspension is like 'as yoi would call it' "Gradma's famous tanks giving Turky Recipey" there are 100000000 different seetings and ajustments that would work. Balance track, ridehight, wight, toque, hp. all change the setup of your car. Not to sound quirky here but play "Grand Tourismo" on the playstation , it give quite a realistic approach to what happens when you addust the spring rate and ride hight and such to your car. It is not accurate but comes pritty close to simulating real life. I spend a hole season racing my 530hp bmw 535 with the standard front springs with 3 series front springs inserted inside of them "no joke" i felt like i was riding a Kmart stroller with a rocket on my back, but it worked. listern to people that have experiance in suspention. money cant buy experiance. g/l

Russ Murphy

James,
I'm running them with 200# Hypercoils and the stock torsion bar. I've got 350# Hypercoils on the front with Paragon's slip over coil-over conversions and single adjustable Koni inserts from them as well. Swaybars are the 968 M030 front (30mm) and rear (22mm adjustable) also from Paragon. It's a vast improvement over stock, however I still don't have the ride height right (rear still not low enough) which throwing every thing out of wack, so to speak. I think it would be great at the proper height, but I'm going to pull the bars and install Racer's Edge delrin bushings for the spring plate and go full coil-over. I'll be selling the M030's with the factory spring and the 200# spring at that point.

Larry Parker

Springs Springs Springs!!! That all every one seems to talk about..........The Shocks damping curves have alot more to do with the general stiffness than the spring rates.............
Remeber that those spring rates you are giving are mesured in lbs. per inch so you only get that 400# rate if the spring is moved 1" and they are not always moved that much with little bumps in the road!!!! Alot of compresion in a shock will make the car fell VERY hash much more than a car with 500# spings and stock shocks!!!!!!


The spring rates give the car a certain balance
Not just make it stiff!!!!

You should foucus on what dampers you want and how much do you want to spend!!!!

Adjusment is very nice.....

Do you plan on doing once? or doing it over if you want to go racing......

Buy some shocks that can go raicng and ride on the street, but to do so you need a large range of adjustment and konis wont do that!!!!!

And dont say otherwise I have all the shock dyno data to prove it... The Hand-a-momiter
cant predict how a shock will feel at speed and neither can you *** for that matter........

I dont wanna sound like an *** that thinks he kows everything but I see alot of people looking too much into springs and not shocks.

I build and design the damn things and work with alot of ride enginers, race car builders and national racing champions so i see what they have done to win and which routes to take........

best regards

Larry Parker

This is a dyno curve of us and a penske racing shock...

Russ Murphy

Sorry, but I have no means of quantifying the unadjustable compression values of my Koni's or for the adjustable rebound for that matter, so I've quantified the spring rate which is the only thing I can. However, I would love to know how you take a shock with a wide range of compression and rebound damping and decide what settings to run an a given road course with a given vehicle.
How much for those Morris Dampers per wheel by the way? Double adjustable and with remote cylinders.

Phooz Busta

[quote]Originally posted by Larry Parker:
<strong>I build and design the damn things and work with alot of ride enginers, race car builders and national racing champions so i see what they have done to win and which routes to take........
</strong><hr></blockquote>
How much for 951/968 front and rear coilovers?

Larry Parker

2800.00 But remeber these are rebuildable racing shocks not over valved street shock....

Danno

"The Shocks damping curves have alot more to do with the general stiffness than the spring rates............."

Larry, exactly what I've been saying!

"Buy some shocks that can go raicng and ride on the street, but to do so you need a large range of adjustment and konis wont do that!!!!!"

That's what I've been asserting as well. There are shocks out there that can deal with a larger range of bumps & spring-rates than Konis, thus they don't NEED to be adjustable. Besides, I don't like the way Konis overheat due to their twin-tube design (very good at insulating).

Russ Murphy

[quote] There are shocks out there that can deal with a larger range of bumps & spring-rates than Konis, thus they don't NEED to be adjustable. <hr></blockquote>
And these wonderful shocks are ...???

Larry Parker

Well an adjustable shock is always better than a non-adjustable unit..........A damper can be set to use springs with in a specific range But only an adjustable one can make that range larger.............

Different conditions require differnet settings....... One settup will never get you dialed in perfect on every track.......close but not like you can do with adjustments..........

Also twin tube shocks get no hotter than a mono tube........As fluid is flowing back and forth between the inner and outer tube , and when compined with a external canister coolins is not an issue.....Well konis may get pretty warm but thats most likly due to a low fluid volume

Alot of formula 1 testing dampers are twin tube........We have found no real advantage in mono tube dampers.......In fact its a pain to make mono tube strut and not lose shock stroke.....................

Skip

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