Z-man

[quote]Originally posted by bs:
<strong>hmmm... double-(de)clutching an upshift? so in that case, you would be on the gas, accelerating, disengage the clutch,let of the throttle, shift to neutral, re-engage the clutch, let the drivetrain slow down,disengage the clutch again, and comlete your upshift?? ok, i'll have to try that; i know that my 1-2 shift is kind of rough in the morning when she's cold. fortunately i am blessed with an awesome drive to work that i can often make without shifting back to first more than once or twice. (yes my drive to work starts with the sign from my avatar, except it's a "1 mile" one...)

so i checked out that turnfast web site last night, and their description of heel-toe includes even a picture showing the heel being used to actuate the throttle. are we all doing this wrong? I definately use the right side of my foot to hit the gas... my feet are too big to get my heel to that pedal, plus then my foot wouldn't be supported on the floor anymore. do "real" race car drivers set up their pedals such that the heel can be used on the throttle instead of the other side of the foot?</strong><hr></blockquote>

RE: Double declutching: yeah: that's the procedure I do, and yes, you slow down a little in this process, but when your baby's cold, it's better to take it easy... You should be able to get into second gear easier. Lemme know if you notice a difference.

RE: Heel and toe: depending on what you're comfortable with is how it's done: there is no set way. Personally, I use my toes/front of my foot to blip the throttle: I just angle my foot a little toward the center of the car while on the brakes. (Right foot is not on the floor until I'm done with the downshift, and back on full braking!) But I'm still working on it, and haven't found what is most comfortable for me. It also helps to move your knee in toward the center of the car when heel and toeing.

-Z.

JGriff

I've heel-and-toed cars in the past, but I haven't practiced enough with the S2 yet... the pedals almost seem like they aren't conducive to heel-and-toeing...

What do you folks think of this... which I often do:

Anticipating the need to downshift...
brake...
depress clutch pedal...
while the clutch pedal is depressed, take right foot off the brake, blip the throttle, move the gear shift lever into the lower gear, and release the clutch pedal... all at the same time, smoothly and quickly.

It's kinda' like double de-clutching as described above, except for skipping the step of putting the gearshift into neutral and releasing the clutch. It's a shortcut version, I suppose. Does anyone else do this?

My concern with the double clutch action is that it works the clutch twice as much... possibly leading to premature wear. Anyone else worried about that?

Jim

jim968

Just to pick a minor nit here... Double (de-) clutching is from the days when _all_ cars had no synchros in the tranny (no, I'm not that old myself, but ...). It wasn't just a cool racing technique, it was necessary to be able to drive.

I learned it at 16 (read about it in a James Bond novel, no s&!t!) on a gutless '60 Comet wagon, three speed column shift, with no synchro on first. Without double clutching, you had to come to a complete halt to engage first. From low speeds, the wimpy six would hardly pull out in second.

I practiced for a while, then did it in my dad's Econoline when he was riding with me... his jaw almost hit the floor... I had to teach him how right then & there. Drove around the neighborhood for an hour showing him how & letting him practice.

Jim, gone to a meeting.... <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

Z-man

[quote]Originally posted by JGriff:
<strong>What do you folks think of this... which I often do:
Anticipating the need to downshift...
brake...
depress clutch pedal...
while the clutch pedal is depressed, take right foot off the brake, blip the throttle, move the gear shift lever into the lower gear, and release the clutch pedal... all at the same time, smoothly and quickly.

My concern with the double clutch action is that it works the clutch twice as much... possibly leading to premature wear. Anyone else worried about that?

Jim</strong><hr></blockquote>

Two things:
Your first 'version' of heel and toe' works great on the streets, but it won't be effective on the track. (From time to time I do that too, when I've slowed down more than necessary on the street) My advise: it's better not to get used to that type of shifting, especially if you begin to play on the track.

RE: Double de-clutching: it's a question of what you want to conserve or replace sooner: a clutch or a whole tranny! Double de-clutching may put some more wear on the clutch (but not twice as much, since you are pushing in the clutch while the gear is in neutral = less pressure against the clutch plate), but it can save a huge amount of wear on your transmission.

Disclaimer: my comments are based on my personal experiences, what I've read, and what I've learned from DE instructors.

Again, what a fun thread!
-Z.

Sajid

Thanks for all the responses guys, Ive enjoyed reading everyones perspectives on this. I have yet to try this on my car. Hopefully sometime this weekend... Keep the advice coming.

*eurospeed951*

I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND! The way I down shift is to:
Put in break
put in clutch, roll part of my foot on to the gas and blip it, move to lower gear
let out clutch
get on the gas

I don't see why the extra clutch input would help. As long as you match revs you don't use the syncros. So why take the time for the extra clutch?

JGriff

[quote]Originally posted by Z-man:
<strong> Two things:
Your first 'version' of heel and toe' works great on the streets, but it won't be effective on the track. (From time to time I do that too, when I've slowed down more than necessary on the street) My advise: it's better not to get used to that type of shifting, especially if you begin to play on the track. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Absolutely!! I agree that this is not really all that great a method for the track, and that heel and toe is the best way. I've done this occasionally on the street, just so that I'm matching the revs when I downshift. I need to practice heel and toeing more on this car before I'm really comfortable with it. It's tough to angle my foot the proper way, especially given my size (6'2" 225 lbs.) and the fact that the steering wheel doesn't tilt or telescope!!

I'll try double de-clutching to see how that goes. Maybe I'll feel more comfortable with that instead.

[quote] <strong>RE: Double de-clutching: it's a question of what you want to conserve or replace sooner: a clutch or a whole tranny! Double de-clutching may put some more wear on the clutch (but not twice as much, since you are pushing in the clutch while the gear is in neutral = less pressure against the clutch plate), but it can save a huge amount of wear on your transmission.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree that it would be better to wear out the clutch rather than the tranny. And good point about "twice the wear"... I didn't think of that... i.e. less pressure because of it being in neutral. So maybe only one third more wear...?

Thanks for the feedback.

Jim

Z-man

[quote]Originally posted by *eurospeed951*:
<strong>I don't see why the extra clutch input would help. As long as you match revs you don't use the syncros. So why take the time for the extra clutch?</strong><hr></blockquote>
First of all, the double de-clutching wouldn't take any extra time, since everything is supposed to be done while you're still braking: on the track that is.

That said, as stated before, we really don't need to double de-clutch our cars, since our syncros are strong enough to withstand the pressure. HOWEVER: since we have some inherent notchiness in our trannies, esp. in second gear, what I have suggested is to use double de-clutching to go from first to second gear when your car is cold: the de-clutching takes a lot of the notchiness away, and thus there is less wear on your tranny, syncros...etc.

There are some who believe you should double de-clutch everytime you heel and toe, but IMHO, if you're already heel-and-toeing, you're already saving your tranny: that's where you'll get the best gains.

Again, just my $0.42.
-Z.

PS: Jim: yeah, maybe 1/3 more wear!

Tremelune

I don't ever make a shift without matching revs. This can't be uncommon. Brake, push in clutch, get off brake, blip throttle, reengage clutch. I can understand the point of heel-toe on a track when you want constant braking/power, but on the street there's a split second from when my foot moves from the brake to the gas. To say that heel-toe saves your tranny seems inaccurate...it's just having your engine revved to match the gearbox, regardless of your feet position.

Sorry, this is getting off topic, but am I to understand that you guys ever let the clutch out without giving it any gas? Am I misunderstanding something?

JGriff

On the track (and to a limited degree, for spirited street driving), keep in mind that one of the major reasons, if not the primary one, for matching the revs (whether it be heel-and-toe or via double de-clutching as described) is to reduce the possibility of upsetting the balance of the car by making a smooth downshift.

Without matching the revs, and instead letting the syncros take the abuse, you can possibly upset the balance of the car due to the pitching forward of the car from engine braking. It is the equivalent of putting on the brakes really hard if the revs aren’t matched close enough to the lower gear. In extreme cases, you could actually experience wheelspin, which certainly wouldn’t be nice, especially going into a curve!!

For those that heel-and-toe their 944, are you doing it with the stock pedals or did you fit aftermarket ones, to make the process easier? I’m hesitant about the latter, because I once put a set of Momo pedals on another car, and they ended up being way too dangerous... they brought the pedals too close to each other, and once I even hit the gas instead of the brake!!

Maybe I just need to practice a real lot with the OEM pedals... or get bigger shoes... something like those worn by Ronald McDonald might give me enough sole on the sides!!

Jim

ian

I have found the 944's pedals are very easy to heal toe, having driven 911's they are even easier, but compared to most cars the 944's are cake. Just take some time practice, find the spot where you can access both pedals and just do it every time you down shift and it no time you'll get it.

Sajid

Im still a bit confused on how this works. Everyone keeps saying to "blip" the accelerator while still on the brake so it matches the revs of the gear you are downshifting into. So im assuming this would only be relevant on curves because if i was on the highway and wanted to downshift to pass a car up, i wouldnt be using the brake. Am i correct in assuming this?

And if I were trying to heal-toe on a turn, how do i know what the optimum rev of the engine should be. Can someone give a break-down of each gear and the range of RPMs and Speed of each?

And what is the proper way to heal toe exactly? Bottom heal of foot blipping the throttle or vice versa? Because it would seem to me to be easier to pivot off of my heal (thats on the brake) and tap the accelerator...

Im scared to try this guys... <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

Tremelune

Yeah, heel-toe is for when you're braking (for a turn). As for foot position, it seems to change with the pedals. The easiest way for me was on a Neon with an aftermarket gas pedal...You could just sorta lean off the brake and tap it with your toe. Seems like the heel on the gas is what works for 944s...feels weird to me, though.

Z-man

Sajid:
First of all: you should NOT be changing gears in the middle of a turn. While it may not make a difference on the street, if you try that on the track, you'll be in the weeds for sure. For performance driving, all braking and shifting should be done in a straight line, prior to your turn-in! Trail braking is the exception to this rule: but even then, you do MOST of the braking in the straight, and kinda ease off the brakes and turn in at the same time.

Here's how a corner should be properly taken:
1. While straight and approaching corner: off throttle, smoothly apply brake, downshift (using heel and toe).
2. As you start the turn, ease off the brake (trail brake), smoothly transition to neutral throttle, and turn in.
3. As you approach your apex (when you are closest to the inner part of the turn: usually late apex), squeeze on the throttle. If you are too wide or too tight, modulate the throttle (throttle steering) to stay on your line through the turn.
4. Just before you hit the apex, you should be dialing in more throttle, so as you pass the apex, you will be at WOT (Wide open throttle).
5. As you track out, your car should drift toward the outside of the road in a controlled manner.
6. And away you go!

BTW: there are tons of books that deal with turns and performance driving: they all teach basically the same thing, with different techniques and styles.

Regarding foot position: Like I said before: your foot position really depends on what you're comfortable with. Personally, I 'blip' my throttle with my toes: ball of foot stays on brake, heel is off the floor, foot angled towards center of car. But depending on your foot/pedal setup/what you're comfortable with, is how you position your foot! There is no standard position.

Hope this helps!
-Z-man.

Sajid

z-man,

thanks, your instructions were very helpful. However, the only thing i am still confused with, is the "blip" in the throttle. If someone could expand on that, id appreciate it.