Debating Engine Swap Ideas - Cheap, Reliable, Modable?
03-22-2008, 05:46 AM
#61
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Nissan VG30et. Small, reasonably light, simple (OHC-12 valve) and tough, probably more so than it's newer DOHC brother vg30det.
http://www.redz31.com/turbofaq/dyno.graphs.html
http://www.redz31.com/turbofaq/dyno.graphs.html
03-22-2008, 09:39 AM
#62
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Plan and simple, our toys just are to "different" to do a swap. I think the perfect engine would be the Buick 3.8, the right size, cheep, supercharged or turbo, but no kit. Hey, lets all pool our money and have someone make us what we need!
03-22-2008, 03:13 PM
#63
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im looking at the prices on renegade hybrids and someone said on here that the can get an entire parts car for $1500 with an ls1 in it and the guy about said he can get an ls1 for $1000... so, if you do the work yourself, it looks like you can do the ls1 swap for $5k or less.
we had this discussion on another thread and we came to the conclusion (or i did) that it could be done in a bare bones fashion for around $4k.
the only thing that bothers me about this swap is that you change the height of the cross member and raise the engine higher i think, which might affect the handling... anyone know about this?
i think i'd like to use a 951, 968, or s2 engine with a twin screw supercharger or go with an ls1 swap.
we had this discussion on another thread and we came to the conclusion (or i did) that it could be done in a bare bones fashion for around $4k.
the only thing that bothers me about this swap is that you change the height of the cross member and raise the engine higher i think, which might affect the handling... anyone know about this?
i think i'd like to use a 951, 968, or s2 engine with a twin screw supercharger or go with an ls1 swap.
944 LS-1 Conversion
For 25 years, Renegade Hybrids has offered Small Block Chevy conversion kits for many Porsches. Over 12 years ago, the 924S, 944, 951 and 968 models were also fitted with a GM performance boost. These kits offered a huge increase in power and reliability with only a slight weight bias change. Well, imagine the same (if not more) power increase and even greater reliability, BUT handling is not affected at all! Did we get your attention?
Almost all 944 owners agree that this platform is one of the most fantastic handling cars ever built and most normally aspirated and stock turbo 944 owners have dreamt of a big turbo engine upgrade to get that badly needed horse power. But, when they get estimates of the cost of the high performance turbo motor plus installation, and they consider the poor reliability and performance record of the built turbo motors, the dream almost never becomes a reality.
Introducing the new General Motors LS-1 all aluminum fuel injected V-8. With over 300 HP, and approaching 350 FPT stock, this abundant late model motor has become our new pick for the 944 conversions. The ideal motor of choice for this conversion is the '98 and later F body (Camaro-Firebird-TransAm) power plant because the serpentine accessory package fits perfectly in the 944 engine bay. It even fits under the stock hood! ( picture )
The best news is the weight savings. Compared to a Small Block Chevy with all the typical trimmings, the complete LS-1 package is over 140 lbs lighter. Even if the SBC had aluminum heads and an aluminum intake, the weight savings is still over 90 lbs.
Here is a better way to compare the weight. If you were to take a 944 turbo (951), and remove the Porsche engine and all the supporting systems like the intercooler and oil cooler, then install a stock LS-1 with AC, power steering, the works, your weight bias from front to rear would stay within 1% of stock! Yet, your HP and, especially your torque, would increase substantially. In addition no more costly timing belt repairs, clutch jobs, turbo fires, chronic exhaust issues, well, you get the point! ( picture )
Finally, the cost! We have had many customers come to us after spending 10's of thousands of dollars for that 'Big Turbo Motor' I referred to previously. Sure, the initial investment into the engine and turbo upgrades to exceed 300+ HP was a moderate $9,000.00, but the maintenance costs quickly sped past that figure after only a few years. Then with the issue of reliability leaving you stranded with the wife, or dead at the track, our customers couldn't wait to drop-kick the four cylinder in favor of the Chevy V-8.
NOTE: For all the 924 owners (excluding '87-'88 924S) looking to do a conversion, I'm sorry to say, we discontinued our 924 kits years ago. We found that the 924 platform could not properly support the cumbersome "U" shaped motor mount that is required. If this was not enough, to safely complete the conversion, you would need to change, the brakes, the torque tube, transaxle, "CV" axles, and the whole clutch pedal assembly, which adds greatly to the difficulty of the kit. If you attempted to retain the 924 drive train, not only was it too weak for even a mild V-6, the gear ratios were also completely wrong. Finally, with countless free 924's popping up all over, the $8000 cost (plus your motor) to do the conversion correctly seems far and way too expensive.
Basic Parts List
Here are the LS-1 kit prices as well as the options list. For further clarification or additional question, you are welcome to call us toll free at (866) 498-2421 or e-mail us at info@renegadehybrids.com. Thank you for your interest in our newest line of Porsche 944 to Chevy conversion kits.
--- Renegade custom adapter-bellhousing complete and pre assembled with hydraulic throw out bearing, custom hydraulic hose and fittings, and mounting hardware.
--- Custom 12 inch LS-1 clutch disc with Porsche center spline.
--- Renegade motor mount kit complete with uprights, billet block plates, rubber isolators, and hardware.
--- Renegade custom LS-1 road race oil pan and pick up.
--- LS-1 remote oil filter mount.
--- Renegade cross member and sway bar drop kit.
--- Custom 944 to LS-1 pilot bearing.
--- Renegade brake master cylinder mount and pushrod.
--- Custom ignition coil mount bracket.
$2,100 Complete LS-1 kit for 924S, 944, 951 and 968 Porsches, hardware and instructions. For design and application purposes, parts will not be sold separately.
Optional Parts
$899 RENEGADE 944 TO LS-1 COMPLETE COOLING SYSTEM: Including high efficiency custom radiator, HP puller fan and mounts, thermostatic control switch, 30 amp relay, and pre-wired harness, assembled and ready for installation in the stock 944 radiator location.
$749 RENEGADE CUSTOM BUILT LS-1 HIGH FLOW HEADERS: With 1 ¾-inch primaries and 3-inch collectors. ( picture )
$200 CERAMIC HEADER COATING: High temperature polished coating inside and out.
$145 CUSTOM REMOTE FILTER OIL LINES: One pair with all needed fittings.
$25 COOLANT TEMPERATURE SENDING UNIT: With correct VDO output. Please specify your gauge value when ordering.
$45 OIL PRESSURE SENDING UNIT: With correct VDO output. Please specify your gauge value when ordering.
$35 CUSTOM OIL PRESSURE SENDING UNIT ADAPTER
$355 KEVLAR HIGH PERFORMANCE CLUTCH DISC UPGRADE: $100 added to upgrade stock disc included with basic conversion kit.
$440 STOCK 12" GENUINE GM FLYWHEEL AND PRESSURE PLATE
$335 HIGH PERFORMANCE STAGE-TWO YELLOW PRESSURE PLATE
$245 LS-1 CUSTOM FUEL REGULATOR/FILTER/RETURN COMPLETE KIT: With correct fittings for your Porsche stock fuel lines.
$200 CUSTOM FUEL RAIL RETURN MODIFICATION (Customer's core needed.)
$140 / pr. ENERGY SUSPENSION MOTOR MOUNT UPGRADE: Plus mount modification. $90 added to upgrade stock mounts included with basic conversion kit.
$145 SWIVEL 180-DEGREE THERMOSTAT AND HOUSING: For added frame rail clearance over stock LS-1 thermostat.
$75 / pr. CUSTOM BUILT POWER STEERING LINES: Cores required.
$240 STOCK GENUINE GM LS-1 CAMARO STARTER: New
From $390 LS-1 COMPUTER PROGRAMMING: Available with complete emissions all the way to full race.
From $450 LS-1 TO 944 COMPLETE CUSTOM MODIFIED FUEL INJECTION HARNESS: With emissions.
From $425 LS-1 TO 944 COMPLETE CUSTOM FUEL INJECTION HARNESS: Without emissions.
$285 LS-1/LT-1 CUSTOM CV/TRANSAXLE MOUNTED SPEED SENSOR KIT: With reluctor ring and GM plug.
$140 LS-1 COMPUTER: Programming required, core charge $250
$29 LS-1/LT-1 RIGHT ANGLE THROTTLE BODY INTAKE BOOT: 4 inch to 3.5 inch.
$29 LS-1/LT-1 RIGHT ANGLE INTAKE BOOT: 3.5 inch to 3.5 inch.
$20 ft. LS-1/LT-1 ALUMINUM 3.5" INTAKE TUBING
$85 LS-1 TO 944 CUSTOM THROTTLE CABLE
$29 HEATER CONTROL H VALVE: The LS-1 heater return loop must remain intact for the required bypass system designed into the motor. If you plan to run a heater, this type of H valve is required.
$125 LS-1/LT-1 OPTIMA BILLET BATTERY TRAY: For cell relocation.
$2,550 944 "BIG RED" BRAKE UPGRADE KIT: Complete with 993 twin turbo four piston calipers and new pads, caliper adapters, 993 turbo rotors, custom brake lines, used late model turbo struts and hubs, 928 proportioning valve, and hardware.
$215 944 STOCK REPLACEMENT BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER: New
$95 944 STOCK REPLACEMENT CLUTCH MASTER CYLINDER: New
$180 LS-1 POWER STEERING DELETE KIT: For manual rack application.
Tech Article
To read a Tech Article about the California Smog Legal LS-1 Kit, click here.
Ordering Terms
* All parts are shipped UPS.
* Visa, Master Card, and Discover accepted.
* Please allow 4 - 6 weeks for delivery.
* Due to the nature of custom work, a 50% non-refundable deposit is required upon placement of order.
* All parts, prices, and specifications subject to change without notice. All custom parts and components are non-returnable and non-refundable.
For 25 years, Renegade Hybrids has offered Small Block Chevy conversion kits for many Porsches. Over 12 years ago, the 924S, 944, 951 and 968 models were also fitted with a GM performance boost. These kits offered a huge increase in power and reliability with only a slight weight bias change. Well, imagine the same (if not more) power increase and even greater reliability, BUT handling is not affected at all! Did we get your attention?
Almost all 944 owners agree that this platform is one of the most fantastic handling cars ever built and most normally aspirated and stock turbo 944 owners have dreamt of a big turbo engine upgrade to get that badly needed horse power. But, when they get estimates of the cost of the high performance turbo motor plus installation, and they consider the poor reliability and performance record of the built turbo motors, the dream almost never becomes a reality.
Introducing the new General Motors LS-1 all aluminum fuel injected V-8. With over 300 HP, and approaching 350 FPT stock, this abundant late model motor has become our new pick for the 944 conversions. The ideal motor of choice for this conversion is the '98 and later F body (Camaro-Firebird-TransAm) power plant because the serpentine accessory package fits perfectly in the 944 engine bay. It even fits under the stock hood! ( picture )
The best news is the weight savings. Compared to a Small Block Chevy with all the typical trimmings, the complete LS-1 package is over 140 lbs lighter. Even if the SBC had aluminum heads and an aluminum intake, the weight savings is still over 90 lbs.
Here is a better way to compare the weight. If you were to take a 944 turbo (951), and remove the Porsche engine and all the supporting systems like the intercooler and oil cooler, then install a stock LS-1 with AC, power steering, the works, your weight bias from front to rear would stay within 1% of stock! Yet, your HP and, especially your torque, would increase substantially. In addition no more costly timing belt repairs, clutch jobs, turbo fires, chronic exhaust issues, well, you get the point! ( picture )
Finally, the cost! We have had many customers come to us after spending 10's of thousands of dollars for that 'Big Turbo Motor' I referred to previously. Sure, the initial investment into the engine and turbo upgrades to exceed 300+ HP was a moderate $9,000.00, but the maintenance costs quickly sped past that figure after only a few years. Then with the issue of reliability leaving you stranded with the wife, or dead at the track, our customers couldn't wait to drop-kick the four cylinder in favor of the Chevy V-8.
NOTE: For all the 924 owners (excluding '87-'88 924S) looking to do a conversion, I'm sorry to say, we discontinued our 924 kits years ago. We found that the 924 platform could not properly support the cumbersome "U" shaped motor mount that is required. If this was not enough, to safely complete the conversion, you would need to change, the brakes, the torque tube, transaxle, "CV" axles, and the whole clutch pedal assembly, which adds greatly to the difficulty of the kit. If you attempted to retain the 924 drive train, not only was it too weak for even a mild V-6, the gear ratios were also completely wrong. Finally, with countless free 924's popping up all over, the $8000 cost (plus your motor) to do the conversion correctly seems far and way too expensive.
Basic Parts List
Here are the LS-1 kit prices as well as the options list. For further clarification or additional question, you are welcome to call us toll free at (866) 498-2421 or e-mail us at info@renegadehybrids.com. Thank you for your interest in our newest line of Porsche 944 to Chevy conversion kits.
--- Renegade custom adapter-bellhousing complete and pre assembled with hydraulic throw out bearing, custom hydraulic hose and fittings, and mounting hardware.
--- Custom 12 inch LS-1 clutch disc with Porsche center spline.
--- Renegade motor mount kit complete with uprights, billet block plates, rubber isolators, and hardware.
--- Renegade custom LS-1 road race oil pan and pick up.
--- LS-1 remote oil filter mount.
--- Renegade cross member and sway bar drop kit.
--- Custom 944 to LS-1 pilot bearing.
--- Renegade brake master cylinder mount and pushrod.
--- Custom ignition coil mount bracket.
$2,100 Complete LS-1 kit for 924S, 944, 951 and 968 Porsches, hardware and instructions. For design and application purposes, parts will not be sold separately.
Optional Parts
$899 RENEGADE 944 TO LS-1 COMPLETE COOLING SYSTEM: Including high efficiency custom radiator, HP puller fan and mounts, thermostatic control switch, 30 amp relay, and pre-wired harness, assembled and ready for installation in the stock 944 radiator location.
$749 RENEGADE CUSTOM BUILT LS-1 HIGH FLOW HEADERS: With 1 ¾-inch primaries and 3-inch collectors. ( picture )
$200 CERAMIC HEADER COATING: High temperature polished coating inside and out.
$145 CUSTOM REMOTE FILTER OIL LINES: One pair with all needed fittings.
$25 COOLANT TEMPERATURE SENDING UNIT: With correct VDO output. Please specify your gauge value when ordering.
$45 OIL PRESSURE SENDING UNIT: With correct VDO output. Please specify your gauge value when ordering.
$35 CUSTOM OIL PRESSURE SENDING UNIT ADAPTER
$355 KEVLAR HIGH PERFORMANCE CLUTCH DISC UPGRADE: $100 added to upgrade stock disc included with basic conversion kit.
$440 STOCK 12" GENUINE GM FLYWHEEL AND PRESSURE PLATE
$335 HIGH PERFORMANCE STAGE-TWO YELLOW PRESSURE PLATE
$245 LS-1 CUSTOM FUEL REGULATOR/FILTER/RETURN COMPLETE KIT: With correct fittings for your Porsche stock fuel lines.
$200 CUSTOM FUEL RAIL RETURN MODIFICATION (Customer's core needed.)
$140 / pr. ENERGY SUSPENSION MOTOR MOUNT UPGRADE: Plus mount modification. $90 added to upgrade stock mounts included with basic conversion kit.
$145 SWIVEL 180-DEGREE THERMOSTAT AND HOUSING: For added frame rail clearance over stock LS-1 thermostat.
$75 / pr. CUSTOM BUILT POWER STEERING LINES: Cores required.
$240 STOCK GENUINE GM LS-1 CAMARO STARTER: New
From $390 LS-1 COMPUTER PROGRAMMING: Available with complete emissions all the way to full race.
From $450 LS-1 TO 944 COMPLETE CUSTOM MODIFIED FUEL INJECTION HARNESS: With emissions.
From $425 LS-1 TO 944 COMPLETE CUSTOM FUEL INJECTION HARNESS: Without emissions.
$285 LS-1/LT-1 CUSTOM CV/TRANSAXLE MOUNTED SPEED SENSOR KIT: With reluctor ring and GM plug.
$140 LS-1 COMPUTER: Programming required, core charge $250
$29 LS-1/LT-1 RIGHT ANGLE THROTTLE BODY INTAKE BOOT: 4 inch to 3.5 inch.
$29 LS-1/LT-1 RIGHT ANGLE INTAKE BOOT: 3.5 inch to 3.5 inch.
$20 ft. LS-1/LT-1 ALUMINUM 3.5" INTAKE TUBING
$85 LS-1 TO 944 CUSTOM THROTTLE CABLE
$29 HEATER CONTROL H VALVE: The LS-1 heater return loop must remain intact for the required bypass system designed into the motor. If you plan to run a heater, this type of H valve is required.
$125 LS-1/LT-1 OPTIMA BILLET BATTERY TRAY: For cell relocation.
$2,550 944 "BIG RED" BRAKE UPGRADE KIT: Complete with 993 twin turbo four piston calipers and new pads, caliper adapters, 993 turbo rotors, custom brake lines, used late model turbo struts and hubs, 928 proportioning valve, and hardware.
$215 944 STOCK REPLACEMENT BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER: New
$95 944 STOCK REPLACEMENT CLUTCH MASTER CYLINDER: New
$180 LS-1 POWER STEERING DELETE KIT: For manual rack application.
Tech Article
To read a Tech Article about the California Smog Legal LS-1 Kit, click here.
Ordering Terms
* All parts are shipped UPS.
* Visa, Master Card, and Discover accepted.
* Please allow 4 - 6 weeks for delivery.
* Due to the nature of custom work, a 50% non-refundable deposit is required upon placement of order.
* All parts, prices, and specifications subject to change without notice. All custom parts and components are non-returnable and non-refundable.
Tech Article
Ahh, the wonders of California Emissions!
As most of you know, Renegade Hybrids has introduced the LS-1 944 conversion kit with great success. We now have quite a few of these cars that are running and driving, or are nearing completion. Our customers have been overjoyed, the press is buzzing with inquiries, and we couldn't be happier!
A few of our customers are residence of California. We knew this would be a challenge when we started selling kits to our neighbors just to the west of us, but "a challenge" was an understatement.
Before introducing the LS-1 kit late in 2004, we did our homework in an attempt to assist our customers in Cali. Just our luck, within one month of the kit introduction, the laws governing our interpretation of the allowed procedures have changed yet again. So, we have made some big changes (again) to comply with the new set of laws.
BUT... this time we went all the way. Basically we have installed the entire motor and related smog systems regulated by the state into a 944 and we will have our first street legal car registered and driving in California shortly.
Here is how we did it...
1. Our motor mounts we shipped from day one are working extremely well. For California customers, however, we need to make an exchange. Please send back your mounts (uprights) and we will send you the new ones at no charge. Our new mounts allow for the stock manifolds to be used and have an appropriate support for the steering shaft modification required. (If you have not purchased the conversion kit and you wish to use these mounts, add $100 to the cost of the kit.)
2. We have developed a steering shaft modification kit that uses extremely high quality "U" joints and related parts. In order to insure proper installation of this sensitive modification, please send in your steering shaft from the joint at the fire wall to the joint at the rack. Include both joints please. We will take it from there. Cost = $290 parts and labor.
3. Please send us your exhaust manifolds with the heat flanges as well so that we may make the necessary modifications. This will include some machining to both sides that will not hinder performance, and they will be ceramic coated inside and out to reduce heat transfer to sensitive systems nearby. Cost = $320 parts and labor.
4. California customers do not need to send us your fuel rails for modification. The state requires a returnless system so a very high quality fuel regulator is now available. This regulator with fittings may be ordered from Renegade. Cost = $320.
5. We have made another handy part that will make the installation of the smog pump MUCH easier. This smog pump bracket allows for the electric air pump to be located adjacent to the battery box. Cost = $48.
6. We need a little more space, so we have a spacer kit available to drop the cross member down a bit more to make room for our added parts. Cost = $140 when used with kit spacer kit.
7. Thanks to K & N once again for making our lives a bit easier, they have built a smog legal filter system that will help the performance of your "F" body LS-1 without upsetting the emissions referees. This kit is now available through Renegade. Cost = $379.
Cleaner air is certainly a priority with Renegade Hybrids no matter what state or country. This is why we have embraced this process with responsibility to our air quality and to our customers. The early 2000 Camaro LS-1 allowable emissions are far less than a mid 80's stock 944, so the conversion process itself has helped with our air quality.
Since we are not located in California, this does not constitute a guarantee that the addition of these systems will insure compliance with the EPA. Condition of motor, proper programming and tuning of ECM, correct application and installation of related emission systems, condition of emission systems, and even future changes in the standards within any given state may be grounds for rejection. Additional parts such as catalytic converters, O2 sensors, canister vent valve, etc. may be required to comply with your states emissions standards.
Thank you once again for your interest or purchase of the Renegade Hybrids LS-1 944 kit. If you have any additional questions, please feel free to contact us!
- Scott and the crew
BACK
Ahh, the wonders of California Emissions!
As most of you know, Renegade Hybrids has introduced the LS-1 944 conversion kit with great success. We now have quite a few of these cars that are running and driving, or are nearing completion. Our customers have been overjoyed, the press is buzzing with inquiries, and we couldn't be happier!
A few of our customers are residence of California. We knew this would be a challenge when we started selling kits to our neighbors just to the west of us, but "a challenge" was an understatement.
Before introducing the LS-1 kit late in 2004, we did our homework in an attempt to assist our customers in Cali. Just our luck, within one month of the kit introduction, the laws governing our interpretation of the allowed procedures have changed yet again. So, we have made some big changes (again) to comply with the new set of laws.
BUT... this time we went all the way. Basically we have installed the entire motor and related smog systems regulated by the state into a 944 and we will have our first street legal car registered and driving in California shortly.
Here is how we did it...
1. Our motor mounts we shipped from day one are working extremely well. For California customers, however, we need to make an exchange. Please send back your mounts (uprights) and we will send you the new ones at no charge. Our new mounts allow for the stock manifolds to be used and have an appropriate support for the steering shaft modification required. (If you have not purchased the conversion kit and you wish to use these mounts, add $100 to the cost of the kit.)
2. We have developed a steering shaft modification kit that uses extremely high quality "U" joints and related parts. In order to insure proper installation of this sensitive modification, please send in your steering shaft from the joint at the fire wall to the joint at the rack. Include both joints please. We will take it from there. Cost = $290 parts and labor.
3. Please send us your exhaust manifolds with the heat flanges as well so that we may make the necessary modifications. This will include some machining to both sides that will not hinder performance, and they will be ceramic coated inside and out to reduce heat transfer to sensitive systems nearby. Cost = $320 parts and labor.
4. California customers do not need to send us your fuel rails for modification. The state requires a returnless system so a very high quality fuel regulator is now available. This regulator with fittings may be ordered from Renegade. Cost = $320.
5. We have made another handy part that will make the installation of the smog pump MUCH easier. This smog pump bracket allows for the electric air pump to be located adjacent to the battery box. Cost = $48.
6. We need a little more space, so we have a spacer kit available to drop the cross member down a bit more to make room for our added parts. Cost = $140 when used with kit spacer kit.
7. Thanks to K & N once again for making our lives a bit easier, they have built a smog legal filter system that will help the performance of your "F" body LS-1 without upsetting the emissions referees. This kit is now available through Renegade. Cost = $379.
Cleaner air is certainly a priority with Renegade Hybrids no matter what state or country. This is why we have embraced this process with responsibility to our air quality and to our customers. The early 2000 Camaro LS-1 allowable emissions are far less than a mid 80's stock 944, so the conversion process itself has helped with our air quality.
Since we are not located in California, this does not constitute a guarantee that the addition of these systems will insure compliance with the EPA. Condition of motor, proper programming and tuning of ECM, correct application and installation of related emission systems, condition of emission systems, and even future changes in the standards within any given state may be grounds for rejection. Additional parts such as catalytic converters, O2 sensors, canister vent valve, etc. may be required to comply with your states emissions standards.
Thank you once again for your interest or purchase of the Renegade Hybrids LS-1 944 kit. If you have any additional questions, please feel free to contact us!
- Scott and the crew
BACK
03-22-2008, 03:45 PM
#64
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: a van, down by the river/UCF
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well i was at sebring last week and saw a c6r motor, out of the car. that is arguably more compact than a 4 cylinder. i know in reality it isn't, but it is a very small package. Remember, though, that the cam and a lot of the weight is concentrated down low, at least for such a large engine. thus it may make the car a bit less planted, but for 400 hp (EASILY attainable with just a cam), the LS1 more than makes up for slightly diluted handling.
then, just the other night, i was driving home and took a corner at high rpm in 3rd gear. all of the sudden i couldn't stop smiling and decided i was complacent with the power as it stood then. i'll do the ls1 swap some day, probably in the next 5 years. but when i do it, i'll do it right. i'll use a flawless early n/a and run 15"s with wilwood 4 pistons and a turbo s lsd and 300 lb front springs and and and and and..... i want to make a sleeper, to be honest.
then, just the other night, i was driving home and took a corner at high rpm in 3rd gear. all of the sudden i couldn't stop smiling and decided i was complacent with the power as it stood then. i'll do the ls1 swap some day, probably in the next 5 years. but when i do it, i'll do it right. i'll use a flawless early n/a and run 15"s with wilwood 4 pistons and a turbo s lsd and 300 lb front springs and and and and and..... i want to make a sleeper, to be honest.
03-22-2008, 07:02 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
You don't want to touch the cross member. The clearance issue is the oil pan and you will need a modification. I'm told the easiest is to buy a shallow pan. I Bought a 2pc corvette batwing pan which I will cut as required and weld in aluminum. The end result will be semi dry sump and I will add a remote oil tank in order to have capacity.
[QUOTE=944J;5239318]the only thing that bothers me about this swap is that you change the height of the cross member and raise the engine higher i think, which might affect the handling... anyone know about this?
[QUOTE=944J;5239318]the only thing that bothers me about this swap is that you change the height of the cross member and raise the engine higher i think, which might affect the handling... anyone know about this?
03-23-2008, 03:16 PM
#66
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[QUOTE=jim 7;5239842]You don't want to touch the cross member. The clearance issue is the oil pan and you will need a modification. I'm told the easiest is to buy a shallow pan. I Bought a 2pc corvette batwing pan which I will cut as required and weld in aluminum. The end result will be semi dry sump and I will add a remote oil tank in order to have capacity.
so they do or dont use a new cross member that sits about 1.5" higher and changes the height of the engine when combined where their motor mounts?
so they do or dont use a new cross member that sits about 1.5" higher and changes the height of the engine when combined where their motor mounts?
03-23-2008, 03:35 PM
#67
so they do or dont use a new cross member that sits about 1.5" higher and changes the height of the engine when combined where their motor mounts?
The original LT kit used a "saddle" mount that bolted to the frame rails where the sway bar bolts to; maybe this is what you were thinkng? But this style mount was replaced with two seperate mount urights that bolt to the OE crossmember just like the LS kit now. The LT kit early and late did not require any spacing of the crossmember. I believe the LS is taller than the LT and so was required to be lowered in the bay to rid the need of a scoop or other modifications to the hood.
03-23-2008, 04:11 PM
#68
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i did the ls1 swap and can speak to a couple of points. There is a 1/2 spacer between the car and the crossmember so you actually LOWER the engine about 1/2". my car handles fine. I did the 944fest a couple of years ago at Nelson Ledges and my handling was fine. I actually reeled cars in going around the twisties, so problems are not an issue at least for my car. The LS1 actually weighs about 50-60 pounds more than the stock na engine, which i compensated for by adding the EVO II nose and ditching the heavy bumper and the heavier bumper shocks. 4 grand sounds like about a minimum to do the swap, but you need better cooling and brakes down the road if you are going to be driving hard. I just put the Weltmeister front sway bar in and the lowered engine caused a couple of small issues that are solved easily with longer fasteners. Links to my car;
http://home.woh.rr.com/expuppy
http://home.woh.rr.com/expuppy
03-23-2008, 04:21 PM
#69
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I think the current norm for LSx swaps is using spacers on the cross member to gain more clearance for the pan. I believe. and have done, with the correctly fabbed oil pan it is not needed. What the spacer tells me is a poorly designed oil pan is being used, and rather fixing a simple problem add spacers to put a bandaid on a heart attack. By conventional standards a 1/8 inch (a tad over 3mm) chassis tolerance is acceptable. Anything outside that will alter the way the suspension works.
03-23-2008, 06:39 PM
#70
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The other reason for the spacers is to keep the hood stock. No spacer= the ls1 throttle body interferes with the hood. And i believe that some 944's would have interference between the brake master cylinder and the EGR spout on the valve cover.
03-23-2008, 07:13 PM
#71
If only someone made a shorter intake for the LS. Then it would be really perfect for a conversion. But then again...if only someone made an aluminum block for the LT.
Theres probably a way to keep the x-member 1/2" lower like with the spacers but raise the A-arms back to stock and safely. Obviously the x-member can be modified as Lindseyracing is doing. However, if the LS guys say its no thang, id trust them and just go with it.
Theres probably a way to keep the x-member 1/2" lower like with the spacers but raise the A-arms back to stock and safely. Obviously the x-member can be modified as Lindseyracing is doing. However, if the LS guys say its no thang, id trust them and just go with it.
03-23-2008, 07:46 PM
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imagine what 1/2 an inch is over 300-600 lbs over 100mph, its a big lever.
but in al reality it depends on where the center of gravity is for the stock engine vs the new engine...
does the 1/2 inch low cross member mean there is less ground clearance?
i'm still a little confused on this issue, i wonder if there is a drawing, schematic, or pictures of what is actually going on...
but in al reality it depends on where the center of gravity is for the stock engine vs the new engine...
does the 1/2 inch low cross member mean there is less ground clearance?
i'm still a little confused on this issue, i wonder if there is a drawing, schematic, or pictures of what is actually going on...
03-23-2008, 07:53 PM
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i did the ls1 swap and can speak to a couple of points. There is a 1/2 spacer between the car and the crossmember so you actually LOWER the engine about 1/2". my car handles fine. I did the 944fest a couple of years ago at Nelson Ledges and my handling was fine. I actually reeled cars in going around the twisties, so problems are not an issue at least for my car. The LS1 actually weighs about 50-60 pounds more than the stock na engine, which i compensated for by adding the EVO II nose and ditching the heavy bumper and the heavier bumper shocks. 4 grand sounds like about a minimum to do the swap, but you need better cooling and brakes down the road if you are going to be driving hard. I just put the Weltmeister front sway bar in and the lowered engine caused a couple of small issues that are solved easily with longer fasteners. Links to my car;
http://home.woh.rr.com/expuppy
http://home.woh.rr.com/expuppy
could you sketch out a diagram of the before and after situation from a front view about the level of the drive shaft (just showing the important things like cross members, a-arms, engine, engine mounts, frame mounts, etc.)?
03-25-2008, 08:51 PM
#74
Audi 5cyl 20V into a 924?
I saw on another forum a guy swapped a Audi 5cyl 20V into a 924. there was something about it bolted right up. Anyone got any more info?
I frequently go to Thailand to race cars. At my friends shop he does a lot of engine swaps. He has done Toyota 2JZ-GTE and Nissan SR20DET swaps into 944s. Right now he is trying to install a Audi V6TT into a 944 and he said its a pain. Too bad it is too far from here because a 350hp SR20DET Swap cost $3500 installed. Anf the supra engine cost $5500. There also is a cheaper route using the Toyota IJZ-GTE 2.5L Turbo engine for $2700 installed. Also you get a good core value on your old engine. A good running 2.5L 8v will fetch about $1200.
I frequently go to Thailand to race cars. At my friends shop he does a lot of engine swaps. He has done Toyota 2JZ-GTE and Nissan SR20DET swaps into 944s. Right now he is trying to install a Audi V6TT into a 944 and he said its a pain. Too bad it is too far from here because a 350hp SR20DET Swap cost $3500 installed. Anf the supra engine cost $5500. There also is a cheaper route using the Toyota IJZ-GTE 2.5L Turbo engine for $2700 installed. Also you get a good core value on your old engine. A good running 2.5L 8v will fetch about $1200.
