ehall

Here's somemore info on this. I forgot about Valvoline VR1 racing. I personally know someone using this in both the race and street cars. This further info supports Castrol syntec 20w-50 as well. The VR1 is very reasonably priced oil...to answer the posters question. I think this additional info does somewhat support ed in the use of castrol, it's just a lsightly different grade.


More:

At this time, late October 2006, it appears that our old staple, Castrol, has reduced the ZDDP in GTX to about half what it used to be. The safest bet right now seems to be either the use of Redline (synthetic) or Valvoline VR1. Today I purchased 7 quarts of Valvoline VR1 20W-50 at AutoZone for $2.79/quart.

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More from Keith Ansell:


Oil is Killing our cars Part II

Last month’s report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month’s article with their next month’s article! They are all ending up supporting our report.

I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been very reluctant to “dump” Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn’t really abandoned our cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.

Now for the latest report:
#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked “Energy Conserving” in the API “Donut” on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all “Diesel” rated oils are acceptable.
#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.
#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.
#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the “Energy Conservation” oils that we cannot use.
#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today’s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.
#6 The “Energy Conservation“ trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don’t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “Stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.
Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.

Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok.
Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.
New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best with the Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

We’ll keep you apprised of any new findings! Happy motoring for now!

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Paul Hinchcliffe, CCBCC's esteemed head honcho, brought this issue to the attention of William Petitjohn of Lubrication Specialties Corporation. Look for them at http://www.steamenginelube.com/. Among other things, they custom blend a proper lubricant for TC steering boxes. Here's a copy of his response to Paul:



Thank you for your email with the "new, improved, inferior oil thread". This is an old story as many older machines are being left in the dust by the major oil manufacturers. Automotive engine oils drive this entire industry and I think the references to smaller, specialty blenders who still manufacture engine oils with the ZDDP in them is the only real solution as the major manufacturers will always comply with the ever changing high volume requirements of the automobile manufacturers.



We, like the Redline oils have filled the widening gap within the heritage and hobby machine groups our oils address.



ZDDP and other extreme pressure additives are surface modifiers. They modify bearing and journal surface characteristics to allow lubricants to develop more "oiliness" (an old term) or lubricity and reduce the tendency to scuff and gall under heavily loaded boundary lubrication situations. Camshafts and lifters in high speed engines definitely fit this category due to the high velocities and accelerations required to open and close valves many times per second.



We do not manufacture modern automotive engine oils because we do not stock the many additives that make up something like 20% of the total oil by volume. Even though Zinc may not be in many engine oils now other addtives such as detergent dispersants, anti-oxidation additives, viscosity builders, etc are still required. Therefore, the Redline oils may be best because it sounds like they blend their own oils and put in additives that satisfy older engine requirements. It is best to deal with a smaller blender who can tell you unequivocally what is in his oils. I would be leary of the diesel rated oils because these are manufactured by major oil blenders who have a bad habit of changing formulations ***** nilly without prior notice. Diesel engine oil specifications are in a state of turmoil just like gasoline engine oils and zinc additives could easily disappear from these oils too. In fact railroad diesel engine oils have always been zinc free due to conflicts with bearing materials.



The thread is very interesting and confirms my basic business proposition -- It is possible to make a growth business opportunity out of a declining market! We are very happy our PB&J460 formula 3 Green Velvet Pin, Bearing & Journal Oil is working well in your steering gear box. Please refer us to other MG owners as the opportunity arises. Good luck and keep in touch.



Sincerely,

Bill Petitjean

Lubrication Specialties Corporation

About Bill Petitjean::

Lubrication Specialties Corporation is a blender of specialty lubricants aimed primarily at heritage and hobby machinery requiring straight mineral oil lubricants. Their specialty products include traditional steam cylinder oils, bearing oils for open bearings with boundary mode lubrication, low carbon air compressor oils, compounded marine bearing oils and biodegradable oils for 100% loss lubrication service.

LSC is owned by William L. Petitjean, P.E. and Scott Lindsay and is now located in Stearns, Kentucky. Lindsay and Petitjean together have over 70 years of experience with reciprocating steam engines and bring a wealth of application experience to the specialty lubricating oil business. LSC has recently introduced several old/new oils to their product line in response to the increasing needs of heritage/hobby machine operators. As major oil manufacturers abandon old, non-performing product lines LSC stands ready to fill the gap with traditional products that are necessary to keep older machinery running smoothly and efficiently."

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I have no idea about the rest of you, but I'm switching. It's time for Lazarus' annual oil and filter change (I did manage to just about get in 3,000 miles worth of driving this year). I'm not comfortable with Castrol's reduction of ZDDP. The safest bet right now seems to be either the use of Redline (synthetic) or Valvoline VR1. I've been using Redline products in Lazarus' gearbox and differential for quite a while now, thanks to the late Skip Kelsey. However, the pricetag on seven quarts of their oil is a bit steep. Today I purchased 7 quarts of Valvoline VR1 20W-50 at AutoZone for $2.79/quart.

Tom R.

So if any diesel oil is acceptable, then the M1 truck oil sold at walmart should do the trick.

My bud at the general pulled the specs on M1 and M1 truck after I VM'd him and was going to look at the difference after I spoke to him. I guess the ZDDP is the issue, and M1 truck should be the oil we want from Ansell's notes.

ehall

Yes. That's about how I read it as well. Rotella is a pretty well proven oil. There are a good number of racers that run Rotella and swear bye it. Ski runs VR1 20w/50 in his race and street 951's. Redline appears not to want to play the new game, but ofcourse Redline is fairly expensive as is Amsoil. I don't use Amsoil just because of their marketing technique. (lol If I wanted to do an MLM I would!) I use the Agip 4T. I absolutely love this oil for my 951. It's one of the oils unaffected as well because it's made for 4 cycle motor cycle racing.
It would appear that the inexpensive choices have gotten really small, in oils for our cars. It was nice to see that the Castrol 20w/50 was acceptable, but for how long? It stands to reason that they will change it for economic reasons at some point.

Ken D

Here are the official Porsche-approved oils. Effective for all models from MY 1984.

ehall

As an aside, those "energy conserving" oils will find every possible stinking crack crevice and possible pin hole from which to leak.

ehall

That Porsche bulletin is TWO years old. Moreover, 20 year old engines don't have anywhere near the tight tolerances of the new cars. As I recall Porsche also says that you MUST use the 9201 special tool to set the timing belt, and 18" wheels are totally unapproved on our cars.
Yeah! Right!

Ken D

It's also the most recent available, and updated after the prior version from 2000. It's an FYI only. Noone's saying you have to do anything.

bleucamaro

Ehall is completely correct on this subject, and the reduction of zinc is very hard on flat and hydraulic tappet engines. I'm using Mobil 1 5W-40 Diesel Truck oil in both the Porsche and STi.

To make matters more complicated, Mobil 1 recently changed the part number, and not many of the retailers have caught on yet. So far the only place I've been able to find it in stock was Auto-Zone, and even that is hit & miss.

boston951

So are other Agip oils not to be trusted (ie, Agip Super 10W 40 or Agip Super 20W50)? I am having an oil change performed by a shop that will be using Agip motor oil and want to make an informed decision. Due to the age of the engine I prefer to stay away from synthetic.

924RACR

Wasn't really paying attention to the thread initially, till another rennlister pointed me at it - very good... wanted to throw my weight in as another racer VERY happily using the Valvoline VR1 Racing oil - in my case, the straight SAE40W - in my racecar, with of course the 2.0L motor. I've been running M1 in the street turbos, but am intrigued by the Rotella comments - IIRC, they sell it at Costco?

ehall

you'll have to look that up. I believe it's www.agipusa.com or something like that. The 4t is syntetic. I feel certain that they have a number of dino oils.

Lord_Galva

Ok, I'm totally lost now.
So, in english only buy Redline synthetic and Valvoline VR1?
Dang. I just did an oil change 100miles ago with Castrol synthetic.

ehall

Only buy oils with high levels of ZDDP. Brand means little if it doesn't properly lubricate, cool and create a slick barrier between metal surfaces. That's where the ZDDP aspect comes in.

KuHL 951

Thanks for posting that great link again ehall. I had lost the link months ago and forgot half of what I learned the first time. You know it kind of makes you wonder what new car manufacturers are breaking in new cars with? I'm in the market for a new truck and am considering swapping oil as soon as I get it home. I have a large jug of Rotella Diesel for break in on the new motor but I think I'll read more before I do it. It's good to know that the old stand-by Castrol HD is supposedly OK for break-in.

vdub

I've been researching the recent oil reformulation issues and came accross this link from a Porsche 356-912 site. http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

This article talks extensively about oil for aircooled applications, but it does contain information that pertains to watercooled and even opinions on the newer 996 engine. I've had experience with the old Kendall GT1 20W 50 oil (now sold by Brad Penn) in a 2.0L aircooled engine and I can confirm that it was excellent at minimizing valvetrain and bearing wear. I know alot of VW racers and respectible engine builders who swear by the stuff (just check out the vwparadise website - they hold most of the recent 1/4 mile records for aircooled VW powered dragsters). I'm not in any way affiliated with this company or product, just sharing my experience. All that said, 20W 50 is probably a little heavy for our 944 engines, so while I'll continue to run Brad Penn in my aircooled VW engines, I'm leaning toward Swepco 306 in my upcoming 944 oil change.

Thats my $.02...