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Old 12-23-2006, 05:21 PM
  #106  
Rich Sandor
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simply put, adding the lower spoiler below the wing, would reduce the "form drag" of the car's body, and simultaneously create a narrower passage of air below the wing, which intensifies the low pressure zone, which creates more downforce. More downforce also creates more drag, BUT, you can now reduce the angle of incidence of the wing, so that it creates the same downforce as before, but now with a lower total drag value overall. Do you understand?
Old 12-23-2006, 05:35 PM
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Which is why the 968 and late 951's recieved the 968 trim pieces below the wing, correct Rich?
Old 12-23-2006, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by KuHL 951
Rich. A question for you. Can the large side pieces on many wings cause any detriment in cross winds or are they just a way to funnel more air past the wing?
Whoops, sorry I missed your question Steve!

The endplates on a racecar wing act exactly the same as the "winglets" on an airplane wing.

Take an airplane wing, imagine looking at it from the top down. The air flowing over the top surface of the wing tends to veer inwards towards the body of the plane. The air flowing below the wing, tends to veer outwards, away from the body of the plane. This creates vorticies at the tips of the wings:


This is the result:


As you can see, wingtip vorticies are EXTREMELY powerful effects of an airfoil. They are most instense on Heavy, Slow, and Clean (flaps up, gear up) aircraft. These vorticies also create a TON of drag, so designers have been trying to eliminate them for YEARS.

One way to do it, is to have the airfoil extremely close to the ground. You can see this on Open Wheeler race cars.. the closer the front wing is to the ground, the more downforce it produces. (but this is not only because of an elimination of Vorticies, but also because of a narrower channel for air to pass thru, causing a bigger low pressure zone..) This is REALLY noticeable on an airplane close to the ground.. it's called "ground effect" in aviation, and it can reduce your total drag to almost zero.. it's when you're landing, and you flare, and you expect the plane to touch down, but the ****er just keeps floating down the runway 5 feet off the ground.....




Now, we can't do that with the rear wing on a racecar, and we can't have ground effect at 35,000' . . so engineers added winglets (or wingplates on a car) to eliminate wingtip vorticies.



turn that upside down and you have a racecar endplate:
Old 12-23-2006, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by KuHL 951
Rich. A question for you. Can the large side pieces on many wings cause any detriment in cross winds or are they just a way to funnel more air past the wing?
As for CROSS winds, YES, winglets, or endplates, can inhibit flow across the wing when the airflow is coming at a sideways angle.

This is why a lot of modern F1 cars have fancy designs and holes on the sides of their endplates - to add a little extra airflow of the rear wing when the car is yawing, or sliding around, although it's really more to do with vortex "management" (getting the vortex to do what the designers want it to..)

Old 12-23-2006, 06:10 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by MPD47
Which is why the 968 and late 951's recieved the 968 trim pieces below the wing, correct Rich?
I'd like to think that, but the honest truth is that the 90/91 951 wing (aka 968 bridge spoiler) is not really a wing. It's just a spoiler that LOOKS like a wing. It perfoms exactly the same as the stock rubber spoiler - perhaps even a little worse, actually, and is purely an appearance update.

The airflow over the rear hatch glass is so turbulent by the time it reaches that "wing" that there is really no smooth air whatsoever going thru the hole between the upper and lower spoiler. Thus, it doesn't produce ANY downforce whatsoever, and it is NOT a "wing" It's only purpose is to prevent airflow from continueing down the hatch and towards the ground, spoiling it, trading that powerful "induced drag" value for a less detrimental "parasite drag" value.

So, IMHO, the trim piece below the "wing" on the 968 bridge spoiler is purely aesthetic... although, it DOES serve a purpose on the higher 968 TRS wing!!
Old 12-23-2006, 06:53 PM
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this web page sums up (and verifies) exactly what I am saying (that drag and downforce are just different components of the same force and you can't have one without the other):

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae496.cfm

Old 12-23-2006, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 944J
drag and downforce are just different components of the same force and you can't have one without the other
By your messed up reasoning then, Lift would also be the same as Thrust... since you can't have lift without thrust.. right?

No. You are wrong. They are all different forces.

Additionally, there are 3 main type of drag, two of which are totally independant from Lift.

Induced Drag is dependant on Lift, just as Lift is dependant on Thrust, BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME FORCE JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE DEPENDANT ON EACH OTHER!! Get it through your head!



And finally, the article you posted above, the "author" seems to think than an inverted wing is on a race car is called a "spoiler"... WRONG! It's still called a wing! Be careful of what you use for reference from the internet. It's easy for people to look like they know what they are talking about, but the pro's can spot an amatuer very quickly.
Old 12-23-2006, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Sandor
By your messed up reasoning then, Lift would also be the same as Thrust... since you can't have lift without thrust.. right?

No. You are wrong. They are all different forces.

Additionally, there are 3 main type of drag, two of which are totally independant from Lift.

Induced Drag is dependant on Lift, just as Lift is dependant on Thrust, BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME FORCE JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE DEPENDANT ON EACH OTHER!! Get it through your head!



And finally, the article you posted above, the "author" seems to think than an inverted wing is on a race car is called a "spoiler"... WRONG! It's still called a wing! Be careful of what you use for reference from the internet. It's easy for people to look like they know what they are talking about, but the pro's can spot an amatuer very quickly.

I said this before, these are all WORDS invented by man to describe natural phenomena.

You can't have any force without mass and acceleration.

In the equation of a car moving there are two masses, the mass of the air and the mass of the car, but to do the math over the wing you just isolate that area and say that the wing is fixed and the air is moving over it so you just have 1 mass, the mass of the air, so in the formula

FORCE = MASS x ACCELERATION

the mass is the mass of the air hence the air movement causes the force on the wing (downforce and drag).


can you have lift without thrust? how do you define thrust? its not a force by technical terms, you could call it the force of thrust, but what exactly is thrust? force of the engine? force of a downhill free ride? and if you just define thrust as any forward motion then you can't have lift , drag, downforcewithout it - thats just common sense, does a plane fly while its sitting on the ground?

the guy in the exampl isnt wrong because in Phsyical terms

a wing is a wing is a wing is a spoiler is a dog is a cat... just so its has the same shape, weight, form, position

you can call the spoiler a cat and then put it on the car and do the same calculations on it, even though its called a cat.

All of your terms are psuedo-scientific "industry slang" that are technically incorrect in the scientific world. The science teachers simplify it down so that the pilot knows to lift the lever up and not try to think too much and crash the plane.

We are saying the same thing (I keep saying this) but you are speaking industry terms, I'm speaking in scientific terms.

Also I don't believe that the stock 968 wing has no real effect on the car. I'm sure just by looking at it that is has less drag and more downforce than the stock 944 wing. (interchange the word wing/spoiler/cat/dog as you wish.)

The only variables with the 968 wing are the mass of air under the wing, mass above it, the size of the wing, the angle of the wing, the thickness of the wing, and the width of the wing and some of these may simplify out of the math when doing the calculations.
Old 12-23-2006, 07:33 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Rich Sandor
So, IMHO, the trim piece below the "wing" on the 968 bridge spoiler is purely aesthetic... although, it DOES serve a purpose on the higher 968 TRS wing!!
*phew* And here I was thinking I spent all that money for nothing
Old 12-23-2006, 07:47 PM
  #115  
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a wing is a wing is a wing is a spoiler is a dog is a cat... just so its has the same shape, weight, form, position
A wing and a spoiler are two very different aerodynamic devices.

If you think they are the same, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

You can try to google it, but half the information you'll find on the web is put up by people like you who do not know the difference.

My terms are not pseduoscientific industry slang... they are the accepted standard scientific and industry (aviation and motorsports) terms.

Also I don't believe that the stock 968 wing has no real effect on the car. I'm sure just by looking at it that is has less drag and more downforce than the stock 944 wing. (interchange the word wing/spoiler/cat/dog as you wish.)

The only variables with the 968 wing are the mass of air under the wing, mass above it, the size of the wing, the angle of the wing, the thickness of the wing, and the width of the wing and some of these may simplify out of the math when doing the calculations.
Of course you would think this, since you do not have a correct grasp of aerodynamics.

THERE IS NO SMOOTH AIR FLOWING BELOW THE INVERTED WING, ERGO, IT DOESN"T MAKE ANY DOWNFORCE. IT'S A "STALLED" WING.
Old 12-23-2006, 07:53 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by MPD47
*phew* And here I was thinking I spent all that money for nothing

none of the wings do anything at low speeds but just stick your hand out the window and you can feel the forces that I am talking about and then change the angle of your hand from pointing down, then pointing up, to just flat straight up, what you are doing is varying the different amounts of force in the x (forward/back) and y (up/down) directions hence changing the drag (x component) and downforce (y component), if you add in some curved tips to your wing(hand) then you also have a z component (side to side directions).

this is how airplane control and race cars wings work

Operation

Spoilers generally work by disrupting the airflow going over a car. This disruption has the primary purpose of reducing the amount of lift naturally generated by the shape of the car.

The result is increasing the contact between the tire and the road surface, thereby increasing traction. This increase in traction allows a vehicle in motion to brake, turn, and accelerate with more stability. Additionally, this is accompanied by an increase in aerodynamic drag.

In nearly all cases, drag increases as the speed of the vehicle increases. Thus, some spoilers that are effective at very low speeds often generate excessive drag at high speeds, and spoilers that work well at high speeds are often ineffective while moving slowly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_(automotive)

These guys at wikipedia use the same terminology as Rich but still agree with me that the spoiler increases drag.

In physical aspects the forces acting on the wing and the spoiler are identical, even though people call them different things an engineer or physicist just assigns a variable to them like Fa or such and does the math.

Science of wings
A Mute swan spreads its wings
Enlarge
A Mute swan spreads its wings

The science behind how wings work can be complex and is one of the principal applications of the science of aerodynamics. However, at the simplest level, both the upper and lower surfaces of a wing produce lift by deflecting air downward, which propels the flying body upward with an equal and opposite force (see Newton's Third Law).

The air above the wing is also operating at a lower pressure compared to the air below the wing because of Bernoulli's principle. This relates the pressure of air to its local velocity. If the velocity of the air changes as it flows around an object, such as a wing, the pressure of the air also changes. The shape and the angle of attack of the wing cause the air to flow faster above the wing than below, so the pressure above the wing is less than below the wing. This pressure difference causes a force called lift that acts at right angles to the air-flow.

The science of wings applies in other areas beyond conventional fixed-wing aircraft, including:

* Helicopters which use a rotating wing with a variable pitch or angle to provide a directional force
* The space shuttle which uses its wings only for lift during its descent
* Some racing cars, especially Formula One cars, which use upside-down wings to give cars greater adhesion at high speeds
* Sailing boats which use sails as vertical wings with variable fullness and direction to move across water.

Structures with the same purpose as wings, but designed to operate in liquid media, are generally called fins or hydroplanes, with hydrodynamics as the governing science. Applications arise in craft such as hydrofoils and submarines. Interestingly sailing boats use both fins and wings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing

a spoiler also works under the same principles, its just a wing without a body of air moving under it, which is an even simpler equation.
Old 12-23-2006, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 944J
none of the wings do anything at low speeds but just stick your hand out the window and you can feel the forces that I am talking about and then change the angle of your hand from pointing down, then pointing up, to just flat straight up, what you are doing is varying the different amounts of force in the x (forward/back) and y (up/down) directions hence changing the drag (x component) and downforce (y component), if you add in some curved tips to your wing(hand) then you also have a z component (side to side directions).
I was joking, I'm well aware of how it works. Hence the
Old 12-23-2006, 08:47 PM
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In physical aspects the forces acting on the wing and the spoiler are identical, even though people call them different things an engineer or physicist just assigns a variable to them like Fa or such and does the math.
a spoiler also works under the same principles, its just a wing without a body of air moving under it, which is an even simpler equation.
Totally wrong. If you were taking an aerodynamics exam, you'd have failed miserably.

A "spoiler" is a device which spoils the smooth airflow over a surface. Spoiling the airflow, destroys downwash, kills lift, and creates excessive drag. A spoiler can be used on TOP of an airplane's wing, when the pilot needs to descend immediately, or it can be used on the rear of a racecar to spoil the airflow down the back of a car, to eliminate Lift. A spoiler, is almost always a simple rectangular tab which protrudes from the the wing or car's body at varying angles, depending on how effective it needs to be. A spoiler cannot create downforce - it can only cancel out Lift.

A "Wing" is an Airfoil which is specifically shaped to create a low pressure zone on it's top surface, the pressure differential creating LIFT thru the body of the Wing. If you turn it upside down, and place it on a car, it now produces DOWNFORCE.

A wing cannot create lift without smooth unobstructed airflow over it's top surface. The inverted wing on the 968 recieves very turbulent air at a very steep angle, and therefore is totally incapable of producing any pressure differential. It only acts as a spoiler to prevent airflow down the back of the car.
Old 12-23-2006, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Sandor
A wing and a spoiler are two very different aerodynamic devices.

If you think they are the same, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

You can try to google it, but half the information you'll find on the web is put up by people like you who do not know the difference.

My terms are not pseduoscientific industry slang... they are the accepted standard scientific and industry (aviation and motorsports) terms.



Of course you would think this, since you do not have a correct grasp of aerodynamics.

THERE IS NO SMOOTH AIR FLOWING BELOW THE INVERTED WING, ERGO, IT DOESN"T MAKE ANY DOWNFORCE. IT'S A "STALLED" WING.
tape a little piece of string under the 968 wing and see if it gets blown backwards at 60mph, at even 60mph the forces would push down at I'm guessing about 25lbs (I've not tested any of this or done calculations).

I am a little rusty on my multivariable calculus since I've been doing so much video streaming software design lately and offering $1 cheap web hosting (see the links in my signature) but I might make some actual calculations sometime soon.

another way to test it is to get a hair dryer and place it just at the front of the 968 wing and feel the air below and above the stock 968 wing. (can use a piece of string here too.

the way this whole thing started is that rich said that by removing the lower peice of rubber on the 944 hatch (spoiler/wing whatever you call it) you get less drag which there is no way this is possible ANYTHING WITH MASS MOVING THROUGH AIR WILL CREATE DRAG even if it's just friction over the surface, remove it you get LESS DRAG, the exception is if you are blocking back flow accross the car and vorices over the surface, but we are just talking about simple flow of air over the car towards the back.



here's the physics department at penn state university talking about how a spoiler or increases downforce:

http://www.phys.psu.edu/people/displ...ription_id=842

A spoiler on the back of the vehicle is designed to provide a force downwards, arising from air flow along its surface. Since the spoiler is at the read of the car, this down-force is exerted primarily on the rear wheels, increasing the normal force from the road on these wheels. A larger normal force means an increased maximal static frictional force at the read wheels. Meanwhile, the normal force on the front wheels is essentially unchanged. Since the engine power in a front-wheel drive Honda is exerted via the front wheels, the increased frictional forces on the rear tires does not help increase the maximum possible acceleration. In contrast, during turns the down-force does help prevent the rear wheels from sliding outwards.
here veteran NASCAR driver Bobby Allison at the Talladega International Motorsports Hall of Fame talks about how a spoiler works, he uses clear easy to understand definitions of the words like drag, spoiler, etc. (he also confirms and verifies what I have been saying all a long)

http://www.aptv.org/PIF/racecar.asp

Downforce - a vertical force directed downward, produced by the airflow
around an object; Down Force is typically created by a device like a wing or front air dam or rear spoiler.

...

Drag - a force in opposition to the forward motion of an object, caused by friction

...

Rear Spoiler - designed to give or take away down force on the rear of the car. If you raise the rear spoiler, you will create more down force on the rear of the car. The trade off is that the higher spoiler also creates more drag on the back of the car. If you lower the rear spoiler you will have less downforce, but you will also have less drag.

...

Newton's Third Law of Motion states that for "every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." A rear spoiler or front air dam is placed on a car to help provide down force or slow the car down. When air hits the rear spoiler, two things happen. First, the air hitting the rear spoiler causes drag on the car. The higher the spoiler, the more the drag. The reaction of the drag on the car is to slow it down. Second, when air hits the spoiler it is deflected up. According to Newton's Third Law, if the air is deflected up, then the car is deflected down. When the air hits the spoiler the other reaction force is drag.

In NASCAR racing the height and angle of the rear spoiler and front air dam is the same for all teams. In many cases, they will raise the spoilers on fast tracks to slow the cars down. On slow tracks they will lower the rear spoiler to slow cars down.

The reason is that on large fast tracks the teams want as little drag on the back of the car as possible. On slow tight tracks teams want as much down force to make it through the turns as fast as possible. By taking away the down force, drivers must go slower around the turns, decreasing speeds.

The front air dam works in just about the same way. The closer the air dam is to the ground, the more down force on the front of the car. If you raise the front air dam, the car will be faster on the straight, but will have less down force on the corners. The same thing applies as the rear spoiler.

DIY network talking about downforce from a electric spoiler:

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/ab_par...918834,00.html

In this project Andrew Totolos, host of DIY's Tricked Out, adds some active aerodynamics to a Honda S2000 in the form of a motorized spoiler and retractable canards.

What does "active aerodynamics" mean? In this case it means that, at the touch of a button, the driver is able to alter the way his car moves through the air and have a direct impact on its traction and handling. The motorized spoiler we install on the rear deck can be made to rise and fall to alter down-force. Up front we add motorized canards, also to help keep the car more stable on the track at higher speeds. From the driver's seat, the canards can made to retract for daily driving.

In this first segment, Andrew installs the motorized spoiler to provide down force for added traction when driving at high speeds.
here is a review of the porsche boxster talking about how the spoiler creates downforce over 75mph (I'm sure they are quoting some porsche sales material).

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...5/pageNumber=1

Aside from the shrill whistle in the test car, there’s not much to dislike about driving a Boxster. But lest we miss any, here’s something to concern anyone who’s afraid of another speeding ticket: at 75 mph, a spoiler automatically pops out of the Boxster’s rump, and it doesn’t retract until the car drops back under 50 mph. For the enthusiast who uses radar detectors and was born with a slightly lead foot, forget about avoiding attention from the highway patrol; the speed-sensitive spoiler is like mooning the cops. We can hear it now: "I’m giving you a ticket for operating your spoiler in a 60 mph zone." The spoiler serves to reduce lift and improve ride stability. We just wish it popped up a little earlier.
here is Hesston College talking about the physics of NASCAR and how spoilers create downforce:

Increasing speed means little if the car will not take corners. Cornering requires a very precise balance between front and rear downforce to keep centrifugal force from throwing the car into the wall. If the balance is too much to the front of the car, it will tend to turn too easy which will make the rear of the car loose traction and slide out. This is referred to as the car being “loose”. If the balance is too much to the rear of the car, it will not want to turn which will make the front of the car loose traction. This is referred to as the car being “tight” (Woodward). The downforce on the front of the front of the car can be controlled by altering the shape of the nose and by the angle of the front air dam. The amount of rear downforce is determined by the angle of the rear spoiler (Bacque).


...


For longer tracks, generally called Super Speedways, speed is the matters more than cornering. These tracks require engine restriction so that the cars cannot run too fast. Since they have less power it is very important to reduce the drag as much as possible. For short tracks, speed is not nearly as important as cornering. To improve cornering teams add more downforce to their cars. When downforce is added so is drag. Since the speeds are lower on short tracks, drag is not as big of a factor. The cars’ engines are also not restricted which allows them to overpower the drag created by increasing downforce (Bacque).

...


Dr. James F. Marchman III, a aerospace engineer at Virginia Tech, says, “The biggest problem for race cars usually is simply keeping the rear end on the ground in a turn. People think about drag as the biggest problem, but the biggest problem is the lift. The car develops lift and you don’t want it to” (Bacque). Spoilers and air dams keep the car on the ground when it is going straight, but the major safety issue is when the cars spin sideways. Even though the cars weigh in at 3400 they still produce a lot of lift when traveling at speeds close to 200 mph. As the speed at which the cars ran over the years increased there were more incidences of a car spinning and the lift created would actually make the car fly. This caused the car to roll and tumble injuring drivers and severely damaging many cars (Bacque).

Something had to be done to prevent the cars from creating so much lift in the event of a spin. There were many potential solutions to the problem. Most ideas failed included a 8 inch tall piece of aluminum on the roof of the car from the right front to the back left, a hinging rear spoiler, and a hinging trunk. Some minor changes that were added to the cars included adding glass to the right window, adding side skirts to keep air from getting under the car, and half inch metal strips on the roof to break up the smooth surface that helps to create lift (Nelson).

I can post as many reputable people as needed all verifying my claims. (subliminal message: order web hosting)
Old 12-23-2006, 09:12 PM
  #120  
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--

Dr. James F. Marchman III, a aerospace engineer at Virginia Tech, says, “The biggest problem for race cars usually is simply keeping the rear end on the ground in a turn. People think about drag as the biggest problem, but the biggest problem is the lift. The car develops lift and you don’t want it to” (Bacque). Spoilers and air dams keep the car on the ground when it is going straight, but the major safety issue is when the cars spin sideways.


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