BIG T-bars
10-06-2006, 12:50 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
BIG T-bars
Alright, so in my quest to know everything about 944 suspension, and not exclude me from any series the 944 races in, I'm looking for big torsion bars.
I have heard there are still places to get 32 and even 34mm torsion bars? my question is where? I realize that these are odd sizes, but they should work as well as the springs on coilovers right? I mean, a big t-bar with a matching shock is about equal to coilovers? am i right?
The reason I ask is eventually I'd like to start running 500-600lbs spring rates around the car (or something MUCH stiffer than 250). Another problem i have is I have no idea whats on the car, but the fronts are 250 and the rear matches it nicely (so 29s?).
thanks!
I have heard there are still places to get 32 and even 34mm torsion bars? my question is where? I realize that these are odd sizes, but they should work as well as the springs on coilovers right? I mean, a big t-bar with a matching shock is about equal to coilovers? am i right?
The reason I ask is eventually I'd like to start running 500-600lbs spring rates around the car (or something MUCH stiffer than 250). Another problem i have is I have no idea whats on the car, but the fronts are 250 and the rear matches it nicely (so 29s?).
thanks!
10-06-2006, 09:20 AM
#2
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944Spec only allows 30mm rear torsion bars, the largest off-the-shelf bar. But 944Cup is a little more present in your area, so probably not a concern! I have the custom 34mm bars; took a long time to get them, consider ordering NOW. Got 'em from Paragon, of course! All my suspension stuff comes from there. No, they're not too stiff for my 2640# car (w/ driver) - but you've got to have good damping!!! Koni yellows won't do it, sorry.
If you run coilovers in the rear, you won't be ITS legal. Yes, they are basically equal in performance, or should be, to coilovers - but a lot more of a PITA to tweak, since they're not easy to swap. Therefore you want to only do it once; all the more reason to get the biggest you can, IMO!
I'm running 660# springs up front, with custom-valved Bilstein Motorsport shocks/struts. But I'm running less swaybar than most; stock 23mm up front, 19mm Cup Car bar in rear. The heavier 944 may prefer the added stiffness of the Weltmeisters too.
If you run coilovers in the rear, you won't be ITS legal. Yes, they are basically equal in performance, or should be, to coilovers - but a lot more of a PITA to tweak, since they're not easy to swap. Therefore you want to only do it once; all the more reason to get the biggest you can, IMO!
I'm running 660# springs up front, with custom-valved Bilstein Motorsport shocks/struts. But I'm running less swaybar than most; stock 23mm up front, 19mm Cup Car bar in rear. The heavier 944 may prefer the added stiffness of the Weltmeisters too.
10-06-2006, 10:34 AM
#3
Race Director
I'm running 400 lb springs front with a 31mm hollow torsion bar (same effective rate as a 30mm solid). As such, I think I could use a bit more spring rate in the front to balance the car better.
I would think a 500lb front spring with a 30mm torsion bar rear would work. But like Vaughan said, not with the Koni Yellows! (400 lb springs are about the limit of their effectiveness, and that's pushing it a bit, IMHO.)
-Z-man, with 400lb springs front, and Koni Yellows all around...
I would think a 500lb front spring with a 30mm torsion bar rear would work. But like Vaughan said, not with the Koni Yellows! (400 lb springs are about the limit of their effectiveness, and that's pushing it a bit, IMHO.)
-Z-man, with 400lb springs front, and Koni Yellows all around...
10-06-2006, 10:43 AM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thanks guys!!
So paragon huh? I might call them up and see what we can do. So t-bars AND shocks... great.. another "cheap" adventure for the 944
this is not going to be a soon thing, I still need to actually race the car and see what i need from there. But from what i can tell 250lb springs are on the lower end in the cup. I know 250 will not cut it in ITS (which I'm hoping to move into later) so we'll see, but i just wanted to get an idea of where to get them from and what I'll need with them.
what would you recomend i use for shocks? Does koni make shocks suited to 600lbs springs?
So paragon huh? I might call them up and see what we can do. So t-bars AND shocks... great.. another "cheap" adventure for the 944
this is not going to be a soon thing, I still need to actually race the car and see what i need from there. But from what i can tell 250lb springs are on the lower end in the cup. I know 250 will not cut it in ITS (which I'm hoping to move into later) so we'll see, but i just wanted to get an idea of where to get them from and what I'll need with them.
what would you recomend i use for shocks? Does koni make shocks suited to 600lbs springs?
10-06-2006, 10:50 AM
#5
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Probably not much help, but I thought I'd throw my fuel on the fire for whatever it's worth. I've recently installed 375# front adj kit over koni yellows and 30mm T-bar with Bilsteins on my 3000# S2. Unfortunately, I have to drive the car 3-4 hrs each way to the track so I didn't want to go much stiffer (besides I can't afford coilovers!). I haven't had it on the track yet--VIR next weekend--so I can't give any feedback. It has been corner balanced and added up nicely on the diagonals but is 52% front 48% rear (stock was like 50.1% front 49.9% rear), but I figure if I can tell that difference I should be wearing nomex to work instead of khakis!
As a side note, if you haven't done T-bars before, they're not quite the nightmare I was expecting. The spreadsheet and procedure worked up by Joe P. is $$$$$. I got my ride height perfect the first time--didn't even have to tweek the eccentric. Search and you'll find the link or let me know and I'll email the excel file to you....
As a side note, if you haven't done T-bars before, they're not quite the nightmare I was expecting. The spreadsheet and procedure worked up by Joe P. is $$$$$. I got my ride height perfect the first time--didn't even have to tweek the eccentric. Search and you'll find the link or let me know and I'll email the excel file to you....
10-06-2006, 11:26 AM
#6
Three Wheelin'
10-06-2006, 11:54 AM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
thanks guys 
now my question is how do you corner balance a 944? i mean is it easy to set the rear ride height? or how do i know how much to lower the rear?
now my question is how do you corner balance a 944? i mean is it easy to set the rear ride height? or how do i know how much to lower the rear?
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10-06-2006, 12:04 PM
#8
Race Director
To be perfectly honest the suspension allowance for 944 spec are the cheapest and get you 95% of the way there in terms of car performance.
If you want something for multiple series on a budget stick with the spec stuff.
HOWEVER if you want a to be at the top of the class you race in you need to pick the target class and prep the car the limit of those rules. It will be compromise in all other classes.
So if you want to run 944 cup and win you probably need a full PCA style suspension. That means coilovers and proper racing dampers. ITS needes big t-bars like 924RACR, but it also needs a really strong motor. Remember howevery you can run 944 spec prep at 2600lbs in 944 cup. This does mean full 944 spec prep, but you get 50lbs weight break vs the PCA prep. So far it appears spec prep is competitive, but unlike running in spec proper you can't be sure.
If you want something for multiple series on a budget stick with the spec stuff.
HOWEVER if you want a to be at the top of the class you race in you need to pick the target class and prep the car the limit of those rules. It will be compromise in all other classes.
So if you want to run 944 cup and win you probably need a full PCA style suspension. That means coilovers and proper racing dampers. ITS needes big t-bars like 924RACR, but it also needs a really strong motor. Remember howevery you can run 944 spec prep at 2600lbs in 944 cup. This does mean full 944 spec prep, but you get 50lbs weight break vs the PCA prep. So far it appears spec prep is competitive, but unlike running in spec proper you can't be sure.
10-06-2006, 12:19 PM
#9
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Exactly as Joe says, and I used to run the Spec setup (30mm bars), does work quite well.
Sounds like you need to read up, in general, about how to corner-balance a car, what it means and all. The goal is to adjust corner weights to get the cross-weights (sum of opposite corners) to equal (LF+RR = RF+LR). This should be readily, easily done on a 924/944 chassis, the cars are very well balanced inherently. Naturally, this is done with driver. The car should also end up level and balanced front/rear and side-to-side. But the car can be level yet the cross-weights still quite off, hence you need scales. Practice helps too!
Sounds like you need to read up, in general, about how to corner-balance a car, what it means and all. The goal is to adjust corner weights to get the cross-weights (sum of opposite corners) to equal (LF+RR = RF+LR). This should be readily, easily done on a 924/944 chassis, the cars are very well balanced inherently. Naturally, this is done with driver. The car should also end up level and balanced front/rear and side-to-side. But the car can be level yet the cross-weights still quite off, hence you need scales. Practice helps too!
10-06-2006, 12:44 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by M758
To be perfectly honest the suspension allowance for 944 spec are the cheapest and get you 95% of the way there in terms of car performance.
If you want something for multiple series on a budget stick with the spec stuff.
HOWEVER if you want a to be at the top of the class you race in you need to pick the target class and prep the car the limit of those rules. It will be compromise in all other classes.
So if you want to run 944 cup and win you probably need a full PCA style suspension. That means coilovers and proper racing dampers. ITS needes big t-bars like 924RACR, but it also needs a really strong motor. Remember howevery you can run 944 spec prep at 2600lbs in 944 cup. This does mean full 944 spec prep, but you get 50lbs weight break vs the PCA prep. So far it appears spec prep is competitive, but unlike running in spec proper you can't be sure.
If you want something for multiple series on a budget stick with the spec stuff.
HOWEVER if you want a to be at the top of the class you race in you need to pick the target class and prep the car the limit of those rules. It will be compromise in all other classes.
So if you want to run 944 cup and win you probably need a full PCA style suspension. That means coilovers and proper racing dampers. ITS needes big t-bars like 924RACR, but it also needs a really strong motor. Remember howevery you can run 944 spec prep at 2600lbs in 944 cup. This does mean full 944 spec prep, but you get 50lbs weight break vs the PCA prep. So far it appears spec prep is competitive, but unlike running in spec proper you can't be sure.
and while I would love to run in the PCA, I'm leaning more towards SCCA. I figure if i can get bigger bars and shocks that are valved accordingly, it would be almost like coilovers. This way, i can run Cup, PCA, SCCA and still have a good time. For now its not about preping the car to the rules... I'm a rookie.. even if i bump another 10K into this car (any donations? lol) I would still be the slowest guy out there. There is something to be said for seat time and races under your belt. Once i have done a "enough" racing with the current setup I'll see where to go. Fight now i just want the info
Originally Posted by 924RACR
Exactly as Joe says, and I used to run the Spec setup (30mm bars), does work quite well.
Sounds like you need to read up, in general, about how to corner-balance a car, what it means and all. The goal is to adjust corner weights to get the cross-weights (sum of opposite corners) to equal (LF+RR = RF+LR). This should be readily, easily done on a 924/944 chassis, the cars are very well balanced inherently. Naturally, this is done with driver. The car should also end up level and balanced front/rear and side-to-side. But the car can be level yet the cross-weights still quite off, hence you need scales. Practice helps too!
Sounds like you need to read up, in general, about how to corner-balance a car, what it means and all. The goal is to adjust corner weights to get the cross-weights (sum of opposite corners) to equal (LF+RR = RF+LR). This should be readily, easily done on a 924/944 chassis, the cars are very well balanced inherently. Naturally, this is done with driver. The car should also end up level and balanced front/rear and side-to-side. But the car can be level yet the cross-weights still quite off, hence you need scales. Practice helps too!
Again this is only what i "hear" and i have never done it, so i just want to make sure (hence askings you experts.. and yes, to me you are THE people to talk to about 944 stuff)
10-06-2006, 01:01 PM
#11
Race Director
Originally Posted by spazegun2213
the car is already not Spec legal,
In general PCA rules are abit more restrictive in all things except for suspension/wheels tires.
10-06-2006, 02:13 PM
#12
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Ah, OK. That does help! If you've got the car close to level front/rear and side-to-side on the indexing, the eccentrics IMO give plenty of adjustment to balance the car out. I usually have mine within 1% even on cross-weights; anything less than that is a waste of time due to inaccuracies of the scales.
To lower substantially, like an inch or so, you'll need to reindex - but if you're swapping torsion bars, you're effectively going to be reindexing anyway. Once the bars are in there and your basic height is set, you're fine, and have plenty of adjustment left for the fine-tuning you'll get when corner-weighting. Took me a couple of tries when I moved up to the 34mm (hollow) bars to get both sides correct, then it's fine, leave it alone. Min ride height at the rockers (excluding pinch seam) is 5", so you can just set your sights for 5.25-5.5", and you'll be where you need to be.
I find dialing in camber and toe on the rear to be a bigger issue than ride height/corner weights, really. Though, admittedly, I do have to go back in and re-scale the car; mine's low and 2% heavy in the rear, and that makes the tail stick a little too well. I'm going to bump it up to 49/51% (F/R), see how that handles, see if my turn-in gets to where I need it... generally, should be level...
To lower substantially, like an inch or so, you'll need to reindex - but if you're swapping torsion bars, you're effectively going to be reindexing anyway. Once the bars are in there and your basic height is set, you're fine, and have plenty of adjustment left for the fine-tuning you'll get when corner-weighting. Took me a couple of tries when I moved up to the 34mm (hollow) bars to get both sides correct, then it's fine, leave it alone. Min ride height at the rockers (excluding pinch seam) is 5", so you can just set your sights for 5.25-5.5", and you'll be where you need to be.
I find dialing in camber and toe on the rear to be a bigger issue than ride height/corner weights, really. Though, admittedly, I do have to go back in and re-scale the car; mine's low and 2% heavy in the rear, and that makes the tail stick a little too well. I'm going to bump it up to 49/51% (F/R), see how that handles, see if my turn-in gets to where I need it... generally, should be level...
10-06-2006, 02:20 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by M758
How so?
In general PCA rules are abit more restrictive in all things except for suspension/wheels tires.
In general PCA rules are abit more restrictive in all things except for suspension/wheels tires.
Originally Posted by 924RACR
Ah, OK. That does help! If you've got the car close to level front/rear and side-to-side on the indexing, the eccentrics IMO give plenty of adjustment to balance the car out. I usually have mine within 1% even on cross-weights; anything less than that is a waste of time due to inaccuracies of the scales.
To lower substantially, like an inch or so, you'll need to reindex - but if you're swapping torsion bars, you're effectively going to be reindexing anyway. Once the bars are in there and your basic height is set, you're fine, and have plenty of adjustment left for the fine-tuning you'll get when corner-weighting. Took me a couple of tries when I moved up to the 34mm (hollow) bars to get both sides correct, then it's fine, leave it alone. Min ride height at the rockers (excluding pinch seam) is 5", so you can just set your sights for 5.25-5.5", and you'll be where you need to be.
I find dialing in camber and toe on the rear to be a bigger issue than ride height/corner weights, really. Though, admittedly, I do have to go back in and re-scale the car; mine's low and 2% heavy in the rear, and that makes the tail stick a little too well. I'm going to bump it up to 49/51% (F/R), see how that handles, see if my turn-in gets to where I need it... generally, should be level...
To lower substantially, like an inch or so, you'll need to reindex - but if you're swapping torsion bars, you're effectively going to be reindexing anyway. Once the bars are in there and your basic height is set, you're fine, and have plenty of adjustment left for the fine-tuning you'll get when corner-weighting. Took me a couple of tries when I moved up to the 34mm (hollow) bars to get both sides correct, then it's fine, leave it alone. Min ride height at the rockers (excluding pinch seam) is 5", so you can just set your sights for 5.25-5.5", and you'll be where you need to be.
I find dialing in camber and toe on the rear to be a bigger issue than ride height/corner weights, really. Though, admittedly, I do have to go back in and re-scale the car; mine's low and 2% heavy in the rear, and that makes the tail stick a little too well. I'm going to bump it up to 49/51% (F/R), see how that handles, see if my turn-in gets to where I need it... generally, should be level...
My subaru is was something retarted like 60/40 (if not more front heavy), and i know the 944's are beautifuly balanced cars so the change is VERY noticable. I'll have to see what my car is (it has not been on scales yet), after that I'll worry about corner balancing.
10-06-2006, 02:23 PM
#14
Race Director
Originally Posted by spazegun2213
tell you the truth i dont know. I have come part that DQ's me from Spec. I'll have to dig up the PO's "file" of parts on the car to find out.
10-06-2006, 03:42 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by M758
Dig it up. It maybe a case where you need to back date (or downgrade 2-3 parts) and then you would legal for spec.